On 04/08/2016 12:11 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> Sorry, to a EE they are all epoxies, but:
Gorilla glue is an epoxy? News to me.
Polyurethane is far from stable over the long term and exhibits
hygroscopic properties:
For example, vide:
http://www.ptonline.com/knowledgecenter/Plastics-Drying/Resin-
> On Apr 8, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>
> Sorry, to a EE they are all epoxies, but:
>
> "BINDER: A polymer such as polyester-polyurethane used to bind magnetic
> particles together and adhere them to the base film in the manufacturing of
> magnetic media."
> http://www.fujifilmusa.co
>> Entropy: Could the rust on the cookie be de-oxidizing, and turning back int$
> No. If that were true, iron ore would spontaneously turn into iron. Unfort$
Anyone keep their floppies in a hydrogen (or, more generally, reducing)
atmosphere? (Cue xkcd #1426. :-)
/~\ The ASCII
com]
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 10:47 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Why do good floppy disks go bad?
On 04/07/2016 10:06 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> And it's not likely the binder, fully cured epoxies are also very
> stable. Note disks do not have th
This from Fuji may also help a bit when examining the makeup of a floppy
disk:
http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/Magnetic_Media_Terminology.pdf
--Chuck
On 04/07/2016 10:06 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> And it's not likely the binder, fully cured epoxies are also very
> stable. Note disks do not have the tension problem that tape has.
There, I have to respectfully disagree. Floppy disks do not use an
epoxy binder, but usually a polyurethane-based one
As a number of folks have pointed out it's not the magnetic particles - rust
is pretty stable; they read a 60 year old RAMAC at the CHM every week or so.
And it's not likely the binder, fully cured epoxies are also very stable.
Note disks do not have the tension problem that tape has.
And it's no
hy do good floppy disks go bad?
On 04/07/2016 02:32 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote:
> The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the
> lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the
> product. What it means is "as long as it's a product w
On 04/07/2016 04:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>
> On 4/7/16 10:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: as a guarantee for replacement
> for as long
>> as I own my home. I haven't had to claim a replacement yet.
>>
>
> How often do you change the anode rod?
No anode rod. The tank is polybutylene.
I suspect t
On 4/7/16 10:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
as a guarantee for replacement for as long
> as I own my home. I haven't had to claim a replacement yet.
>
How often do you change the anode rod?
On 04/07/2016 12:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
My water heater supposedly has a guarantee for replacement for as long
as I own my home. I haven't had to claim a replacement yet.
I wonder if that also covers parts - e.g. elements and thermostats - or if
they try and weasel out of it and only allow
On 04/07/2016 12:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'll go one step further and state that if you hear your drive
squealing, throw the disk away and clean the heads before you insert
another disk.
If you even get the opportunity. I remember a disk - it was either Parrot
or Wabash, I loathe them in equ
On 4/7/2016 11:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 04/07/2016 02:32 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote:
The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the
lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the
product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still
selling" (excep
On 04/07/2016 04:56 AM, william degnan wrote:
> not sure if anyone mentioned this point yet, but I have found that the
> drives destroy good disks a sizable percentage of the time. Keeping the
> heads clean and testing a drive before use with an important vintage disk
> is key to the longevity of
On 04/07/2016 02:32 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote:
> The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the
> lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the
> product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still
> selling" (except for those cases where it *reall
On Thu, 7 Apr 2016, Tor Arntsen wrote:
> The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the
> lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the
> product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still
> selling"
Well, that's an interesting observation, an
> On Apr 6, 2016, at 10:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
> ...
> Entropy: Could the rust on the cookie be de-oxidizing, and turning back into
> non-oxidized ferrous compounds?
No. If that were true, iron ore would spontaneously turn into iron.
Unfortunately, that does not happen.
paul
not sure if anyone mentioned this point yet, but I have found that the
drives destroy good disks a sizable percentage of the time. Keeping the
heads clean and testing a drive before use with an important vintage disk
is key to the longevity of the disk. I also always make a backup copy of
most ev
The problem with lifetime warranties is that they're not about the
lifetime of the owner, and they're not about the lifetime of the
product. What it means is "as long as it's a product we're still
selling" (except for those cases where it *really* is the lifetime of
the product.. in which case it m
"Try getting a replacement for one of those Lifetime vacuum tubes at Radio
Shack."
Beat me to it. I tried that twenty years ago (with a bad quartet of 7591s)
and needless to say, got nowhere. "We haven't sold those in years!" - as if
that makes any difference, in terms of the warranty?
Sure, I ca
On 4/6/2016 8:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Wear happens. Particularly on directory tracks, or where you encounter
the snake in Adventure.
But, that doesn't account for the loss of data over time.
Entropy: Could the rust on the cookie be de-oxidizing, and turning back
into non-oxidized ferrous comp
On 2016-Apr-06, at 7:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> How long were they supposed to last?
> Will they honor those "lifetime guarantee"s?
Try getting a replacement for one of those Lifetime vacuum tubes at Radio Shack.
On 04/06/2016 07:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> How long were they supposed to last? Will they honor those "lifetime
> guarantee"s?
Kodak, when it was entering the market with floppy media, even offered
to recover data from bad (Kodak) floppies. That offer, obviously didn't
last very long.
--Chuck
On 04/06/2016 08:00 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Apr 6, 2016, at 5:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Well, I don't know about the consensus, but in my experience, most
floppies go bad from wear and/or breakdown in the binder.
I have no experience with this issue in floppies. But I have a distressingly l
On 04/06/2016 06:00 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> I have no experience with this issue in floppies. But I have a
> distressingly large quantity of audio cassettes that have gone bad
> over 10 or 20 years. It wasn't wear; they weren't played regularly.
> Instead, something bad happened with the struct
Wear happens. Particularly on directory tracks, or where you encounter
the snake in Adventure.
But, that doesn't account for the loss of data over time.
Entropy: Could the rust on the cookie be de-oxidizing, and turning back
into non-oxidized ferrous compounds? :-)
How long were they supp
On 04/06/2016 10:20 AM, Swift Griggs wrote:
When left in an unprotected state, or a poor environment, damp, mold and
dust can damage the surface, either degrading the magnetic layer or
causing the gap to shrink enough that the drive head physically damages
the disk?
Gap? There IS no gap on a sta
> On Apr 6, 2016, at 8:55 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
>
> On a related note... What causes an old mfm / roll drive to die if the heads
> aren't touching the surface except in the landing zone?
>
> I have read that it's not impossible for the "pigment" to lose its coercivity
> over time.
I would
> On Apr 6, 2016, at 5:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
> Well, I don't know about the consensus, but in my experience, most
> floppies go bad from wear and/or breakdown in the binder.
I have no experience with this issue in floppies. But I have a distressingly
large quantity of audio cassettes
> On Apr 6, 2016, at 3:15 PM, JP Hindin wrote:
>
>
> I had one of those Japanese Koan moments recently when someone asked me "Why
> do floppy disks stop working?" and I realised I... didn't actually know. I
> thought I'd throw it to the group and get some theories/proofs.
>
> Let's work on t
Well, I don't know about the consensus, but in my experience, most
floppies go bad from wear and/or breakdown in the binder. It's
sometimes possible to "renew" a bad disk for use by either AC degaussing
or use of a strong DC field, but given the cost of the media, it's
scarcely worth the trouble.
On Wed, 6 Apr 2016, JP Hindin wrote:
> - Repeated use slowly wears away the magnetic media layer on the mylar.
There is no doubt that there is some friction there. However, I'd be
surprised if this was the chief cause.
> When left in an unprotected state, or a poor environment, damp, mold and
>
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