Thanks, everyone! Got it.
Noel
> From: Jon Elson
> I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode
No, it didn't; in part because it pre-dated fast, cheap ROMs (the development
of which was a considerable task in the /360 project - the wonderful "IBM's
360 and Early 370 Systems" covers this is some detail).
> From: Aaron Jackson
> Picked up a few 555s and sockets and now it works!
Congratulations!
It's odd that a 555 failed, but sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to what
fails. E.g. I was fixing some broken M7859's (KY11-LB Programmer's Console),
and on one of them a 7493 (4-bit counter)
> From: Rob Jarratt
> when I replaced it and powered on there was a big bang
What went 'bang'? (I assume if there was a loud noise, it mus have left
visible damage somewhere.)
Noel
So if someone's building an earlier -8 from bits and pieces, here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192350321318
is something they might find useful - an empty chassis.
(I'm not associated with the seller, although I've bought stuff from them
before. They have some other PDP-8 stuff listed, too.)
So if someone's building an earlier -8 from bits and pieces, here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192350321318
is something they might find useful - an empty chassis.
(I'm not associated with the seller, although I've bought stuff from them
before. They have some other PDP-8 stuff listed, too.)
> From: Peter Cetinski
>> I was left a home with all of its contents tons of electronics and
>> computers, call if you want me to send pics
> FWIW, I received some pics of these items.
So, what else was there (that you don't mind telling us about because you're
not grabbing them
> From: Dave
> I managed to snag the chassis and what I hope is the matching cover.
No, that cover is for a paper-tape reader.
Noel
> From: Dave Wade
> ENIAC had been configured in stored program mode earlier in the year
> and had run a program stored in the function switches, e.g. ROM
> ...
> Despite the fact that when running stored programs ENIAC's parallel
> processing features were not available, i
> From: Aaron Jackson
> The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error
> occurred, I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an
> MPR read (?). So while I don't know how to do that,
RLV 12 User Guide, section 5.2.
Noel
So, I was trying to find info about the early IBM 709/7090/7094 computers, but
when I went to what is supposedly the authoritative work on these computers
(among others):
Charles J. Bashe, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, Emerson W. Pugh,
"IBM's Early Computers", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1986
> From: Brent Hilpert
> What about that little issue of writeable program storage?
Just to clarify my understanding of your position, is a system with a CPU
chip (say one of the 68K models) with only ROM not a 'stored program machine'?
Noel
PS: You really should look at the book
> From: Evan Koblentz
> That's the dumbest thing I read today.
And that helped... how?
Noel
Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to point me
at it.
When I said:
>> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for something
>> in between them and Bashe et al.
I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was
meanin
> From: Ben Franchuk
> Multics never really made it out of the lab.
This 'bogo-meme' (to use a word I coined) is, well, totally flat wrong.
Multics was a reasonably successful product for Honeywell from the end of
1972 (when the H6180 was introduced) to around 1987 (when they stopped
sel
> From: Allison
> simple 16 data, 24 address likely 6 lines for basic control plus others
> your up to 50+ lines
I would seriously consider shared data/address lines, like on the QBUS. It
doesn't add _that_ much complexity to share the lines (I did a slave device
using only 74xxx part
> From: Sophie Haskins
> earlier editions of "Computer Systems: A Programmers Perspective" had a
> bunch of discussions of buses etc .. but the edition I have explicitly
> calls out that they felt like it wasn't important to have chapters on
> anymore :(
Well, that might not b
> From: Allison
>> I would seriously consider shared data/address lines, like on the QBUS.
> QBUS is wrapped around a subset of PDP11 and the unique processors made
> to fit it.
I did say "like ... the QBUS", not "the QBUS"! I was just trying to make the
point that the original s
> From: Charles Anthony
> a hybrid PDP-11 (16 bits) / PDP-15 (18 bits) on a shared bus (UNIBUS?)
That's a UNICHANNEL-15: it allowed devices on the -11 to do DMA directly into
the PDP-15's memory through the MX15-B Memory Multiplexer.
Odd factoid: this UNIBUS could run in 18-bit mode (!!)
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Overall, I have been pretty amazed by the sheer number of machined
> parts, castings, high quality bearings, etc. within this beast. Lots of
> stainless steel throughout. Sure wouldn't find anything built this way
> these days! What a tank.
That's DEC f
So Dave Bridgham and I are continuing to make (slow) progress with the QSIC
and indicator panel project; the latest step was to find some LEDs which look
much more like the original lights:
http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/new-led.jpg
So now I'm trying to make up a prototype 'light shield' (the
> From: Liam Proven
> TCP/IP basically postdates the MS-DOS era, in PC terms, and it's Bloaty
> McBloatface.
This must be a uSloth TCP/IP you are speaking of. There's the one from FTP
software which was based on the one done at MIT which was freeware. That one
was definitely DOS-era -
> From: Eric Christopherson
> I have an inside scoop that a certain library is about to get rid of
> their 2003 printing (which is apparently 1st edition)
ABE seems to have copies for around US$10:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=on&cm_sp=SearchF-_-Advtab1-_
So, as part of the work on getting our QSIC card to support SD cards for
storage, Dave and I have produced some tools that people might find useful.
Dave's original concept was to do SD support with a state machine. However,
the SD protocol turned out to be a little too complex for that, so we de
On 11/28/17 13:27, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
> Dave has a KV10 already in verilog, so why not port it to the uengine?
Well, the uengine would have to be considerably modified before it could be
used for a PDP-10 (e.g. wider data-paths); this version is very specialized
to the SD
FTGH:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/jpg/tmp/HeadSet.jpg
Noel
> From: Aaron Jackson
> Most of the tests now look something like this:
> ...
> SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
> EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
> TARGET SECTOR=17.
I wonder if there's a problem with the floppy you are using?
Remember, the RX0x drives can't hard reformat the floppies (a
> From: John Welch
> Any suggestions as to what to try first?
I would _definitely_ start by pulling _all_ the cards you can, to get down to
the simplest possible configuration. Once that works, start adding things
back in, one at a time.
If that configuration doesn't work, first try the
> From: Henk Gooijen
A few comments to you about Henk's points:
> Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the console),
> slot number 1 is at the right side.
That's for the 10-1/2" box; the 5-1/4" is different. Which is this?
> Each slot has 6 positions. Positio
> From: John Welch
> Can you give me a refresher on how to tell which slots are cut? I
> remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a particular
> wire
Yeah; you can use the G7273 as a 'crib', since it has the NPG jumper on it.
That jumper goes from CA1 to CB1: comp
> Aaron Jackson
> if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy which passed the
> diagnostics, it fails.
My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer
directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one?
(I need one for my own use, plus I wa
> From: Henk Gooijen
> the M7859 is sort of a UNIBUS device. The (front panel) console only
> communicates with the M7859.
Not quite; it does _mostly_ 'do its thing' over the UNIBUS, but there are
also two special lines carried across the DD11-P backplane to the CPU, 'Halt
Request' an
> From: Aaron Jackson
>> My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer
>> directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one?
> I am using the version from here: https://github.com/sethm/vtserver/
After offline discussion with Aaron, we
> From: Ethan Dicks
> I look forward to taking a stab at this.
I suspect there are a number of people who'd be interested in MASSBUS storage
devices (e.g. me - suddenly all those RH11's I've got are no longer boat-
anchors :-). We should try and organize an group build, to share the load.
> From: John Welch
> Any thoughts?
Concur 100% with Henk's comments.
There is a manual online for the M9312:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf
which will tell you what the other start options are (Appendix C), but see
page 3-1, too. Note especially the bit about h
> From: John Welch
> Anyway, 'a' comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as 000101.
Good, the console is working.
> CLR
> LAD
> DEP
OK, that loads a '0' (halt) in 0.
> CNTRL+INIT
> CNTRL+START -> reads 02
OK, so it reads the HALT at 0 and stops.
> CNTRL+
> From: John Welch
> CLR
> 765000
> LAD
> EXAM
> 'Bus Err' light comes on.
Oooh, that's very interesting, and illuminative. The ROM isn't working (so
there's no way for the software console to work - its code is in that ROM).
So look at Section 1.5 of the Technical Manual
> From: William Degnan
> 1) the console rom does not go in any of the 4 bootstrap slots, these
> should be empty for now. There is a special console rom slot.
Just to clarify, by "slot", you don't mean 'backplane slot', you mean 'socket
(on the card)', right?
Also, note that the cons
> From: Steven Malikoff
> they mention it will be scrapped if no takers.
Don't be misled by the .au URL; the units are in Sacramento, CA. Anyone in
the Bay area up for saving these?
Noel
> From: Aaron Jackson
> It was the disks after all.
Well, I'm glad you got it working. Where'd you get a good floppy?
Noel
> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
> I *really* want them and I'm within an hour (usually) of where they
> are. The problem is that right now I'm on a business trip until the end
> of the month and he needs this gone prior to 12/31.
Why don't you reach out to the person and tell them you _r
> My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer
> directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one?
So, thanks to a tip (thanks, Jerry! :-), the source has been found:
https://github.com/chapmajs/vtserver/tree/master/pdpvtstand
http://www.s
> From: Jonathan (Systems Glitch)
> the vtserver `rx` driver has a bug in it anyway where it continues
> reading past the end of the media
I'll be working with the RX driver for the standalone stuff soon on a project
of my own, I'll look into this then.
BTW, 'VTserver' refers to thr
So, Dave and I are getting to the point where we're about to start mounting up
our indicator panels, but we're not sure what some of the mechanical details
(below) are.
Could someone who has one please take a look and let us know (or, even better,
send us photos)?
It appears that the bezel and in
> From: Josh Dersch
> See the pictures at the below link: ...
> Hope this is the right assembly for you
Yes, those are _exactly_ what we're looking for. Thanks very much for
taking the time to take those!
Noel
> From: Josh Dersch
> the plastic "ball on post" brackets
PS: Apparently the 'official' DEC name for the 'ball on post' plastic brackets
is "latch molding". Not very descriptive/apt, alas.
Noel
> From: Adrian Stoness
> theres a 3d model for printing those brakets over on this site
> http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2017-December/036544.html
Noel
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> At best, it's a third part QBUS box.
I assume that was 'third party'?
No, that's a real DEC front panel. They could have put that on an off-brand
chassis, but I would _guess_ not.
(The outer housing I can see looks like the slide-in ones DEC used to hold
the BA
So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html
or, at least, a very close match?
For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a
really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the D
> We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D
> panels.
PS: Here's the latest rev of our thinking:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/inlay-rk11-f3.pdf
if anyone has any comments. (Since the format is entirely set by the FPGA,
it's 'easy' to tweak it,
> From: Jason T
> According to my notes, for the VCFMW8 shirts ... I used DIN Next Pro
> Rounded Medium for the panel text, although the font I had in my work
> directory is "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the
> font next to the knob on the right and the b
> From: Toby Thain
> To get closer I'd need better images of the panels.
Hi, I borrowed a DEC inlay from someone (a KA10 CPU bay) and scanned a chunk
of it (as much as I could fit into my A4 scanner :-) at 200 dpi:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/KACPUPanel.jpg
I have a TC08 in
> From: Paul Koning
>> The DEC font uses a zero with a slash
> For that, a capital O with a slash would probably serve.
Actually, it turns out that only earlier panels (e.g. KA10, TC08, etc) use the
slashed zero; later ones (KI10, RP11, etc) use the ordinary ones. Since our
panel is
I thought cctalk was supposed to be a complete superset of cctech, but
looking at the cctech archives, I see a lot of posts that didn't make it
to cctalk. Does one need to do both to see everything?
Noel
> From: Camiel Vanderhoeven
> I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on
> it - the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling
> application
Neat! Excellent! Do you have the source for any/all of the software on it?
Noel
For some actual content about classic computers (instead of flaming about
various ideas for improving existing systems), I think I've worked out
why the BA11-C and BA11-E mounting boxes have out of sequence variant codes.
It's obvious the variants were not assigned in creation order (the /44 and /
> On a whim, I tried searching for '"pdp-11" "pdp-11"' (i.e. just
> repeated the keyword), and this time it _did_ turn it up! Very odd.
> I wonder why that made a difference?
So I have a new theory about this. Searching for 'pdp-11' causes eBay to
automagically limit the search to the
> From>: Christian Corti
> I thought that the DEC packs would be similar but no, DEC had to invent
> something different...
Huh? I thought RL0x drives use an IBM 5440 type pack (as used on the IBM
System/3 - I used one of those at my first computer job, they'd just gotten
it in); DEC
> From: Paul Birkel
>> I thought RL0x drives use an IBM 5440 type pack (as used on the IBM
>> System/3 DEC may have used their own format (and servo track
>> stuff), I don't know much about the 5440.
> Sounds to me like it was different, but in a good way?
I took a look,
> From: Jay Jaeger
> That code would not run in Windows of course, but it wouldn't be all
> that difficult for someone with a C programming background to move it
> to Windows under gnucc, or even Microsoft C++ or C#.
I highly recommend CygWin (which comes with 'gnucc) for doing C
> From: Jay Jaeger
> I have finished the 3rd phase of my IBM 1410 SMS computer
> reverse-engineering project. ... The ALDs comprise 752 pages from 9 of
> the 11 total volumes of system schematics/engineering drawings ... It
> took me roughly 375 hours of time (probably more lik
> From: Kyle Owen
> Gah...just found it.
We've all been there... :-)
Noel
> From: Paul Koning
> For that matter, core memory details such as destructive read weren't
> visible to the CPU
Umm, not quite. If you'd said 'core memory details such as destructive read
weren't visible to the _program_', you'd have been 100% correct.
But as I suspect you know, jus
> From: Paul Koning
>>> core memory details such as destructive read weren't visible to the
>>> CPU
> DATAIP/DATAO on the Unibus doesn't depend on the destructive read
> property.
Yes, the CPU can't tell what the memory is doing.
> The reason it existed is that it allo
> From: Chris Hanson
> Do you mean you would prefer to visit a web page to read the latest
> posts on cctalk rather than have them delivered to you via email?
Hey, that's how I read CCTalk:
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
I don't want all this cruft clogging up my inbo
> From: Mattis Lind
> I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from.
They're called 'System Modules':
http://gunkies.org/wiki/System_Module
and they were used from the PDP-1 through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this
PDP-7 internals image:
https://www.soemtron.org/images/j
> through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this PDP-7 internals image
> .. seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the
> bottom.
After groveling through the 'PDP-7 Maintainence Manual' (F-77A), this seems to
be accurate. In "Module Identification" (pg. 6-5), it refers
Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!
Noel
> From: Allison
> IC as in digital logic were in production in the early 60s
Yes, but if you look at the picture/manual (I found a "Module location for
I/O" chart on pg. 335 of the PDP-7 Maint Manual - alas, not the whole
machine, just the FLIP CHIP part), the PDP-7 is all B-series and R-
> From: Al Kossow
> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors
My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal 'model'
for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
BITD), and people recently picked that to disambigu
>> people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other
>> -8's.
So my assumption (that it was recent) seems to be incorrect; I heard that it
was in use in the 60's to differentiate it (e.g. for knowing what spares to
take). Alas, with the origin that far back in time, we'll
> From: Bill Degnan
> It's pretty well researched at this point to be true to state that the
> first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20. It just takes a while
> for this to work its way through academia.
Some places got the message a while ago:
http://gunkies.org/w/inde
> From: Paul Koning
>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:
>> ...
>> There are one or two bits in a register of the RK11 that have a
>> different meaning/function, depending on the controller being a -C or
>> -D.
> If someone can point me to th
> From: Al Kossow
> I do not archive any paper myself.
There are quite a few silver-dish lovers; you might be able to raise some
funds by listing stuff on eBait (although I can easily see that maybe it
would be more hassle than it's worth).
> Currently, I am being asked to reduce my
> From: Paul Koning
>> I haven't sat down with -C and -D manuals and done a bit-by-bit
>> compare. I just did that (I used the "RK11-C Moving Head Disk Drive
>> Controller Manual", DEC-11-HRKA-D, and the 1976 "Peripherals Handbook"),
>> and found in the following:
>> In the
> From: Fritz Mueller
> All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing just fine.
Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12:
"Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems."
:-)
Noel
The copy of the KD11-EA engineering drawings (in the 11/34A Field Maintenance
Print Set, MP-00190) on Bitsavers is missing most of the pages that hold the
microcode flow diagrams. I have a set of the KD11-EA FMPS (MP-00192), which
does have all the missing pages, which I can eventually scan. Howeve
> From: Grant Taylor
> Is "byte" the correct term for 6-bits? I thought a "byte" had always
> been 8-bits.
I don't claim wide familiary with architectural jargon from the early days,
but the PDP-10 at least (I don't know about other prominent 36-bit machines
such as the IBM 7094/etc
> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
> I think it's also telling that the IETF uses the term octet in all of
> the specifications to refer to 8-bit sized data.
Yes; at the time the TCP/IP specs were done, PDP-10's were still probably the
most numerous machines on the 'net, so we were careful to u
> From: William Donzelli
>> in 1980, there were more PDP-11's, world-wide, than any other kind of
>> computer.
> I bet the guys at Zilog might have something to talk to you about.
I was quoting my memory of a DEC ad in the WSJ, which now that I go check,
says the -11 was "the bes
> From: Dave Wade
> The only machine I know where a "byte" is not eight bits is the
> Honeywell L6000 and its siblings
I'm not sure why I bother to post to this list, since apparently people don't
bother to read my messages.
>From the "pdp10 reference handbook", 1970, section 2.3, "B
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Oh, one last thing: if anybody else out there has a real working '11/45
> + RK05 and wants to try this RSTS image, let me know, and I'll send you
> a copy (all 2.5MB of it, hah). It'd be interesting to see if this a
> really just limited to my machine?
> From: Fritz Mueller
> I've thought about that; Unix V6 is actually next on my list of OS's to
> try. I think I have seen a fairly detailed set of instructions on
> building an image from this from the commonly available distribution
> tape.
Yeah, one comes with the V6 distr
> I guess I'll do up a cheat sheet.
OK, first crack here:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Upgrading_UNIX_Sixth_Edition
If there are any improvement I can/should make, please let me know.
Thanks!
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Thanks, Noel -- I'll give that a try!
Sure - always glad to help with anything V6 related - that's my chief
technical amusement, now that I'm retired! :-) Any questions/issues, let me
know, and I'll try and get right back.
When booting UNIX, remember make sure th
> From: Fritz Mueller
>> the last microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744.
> So what's at 002 now? Maybe something new was required there by micro
> branch/fork logic, so the original contents had to be moved?
Well, it turns out I've been transcribing the ucod
> From: Fritz Mueller
>>
http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/
> Hmm, this link didn't work for me
Arggh, sorry. I simply copied the link from my page:
http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html
and didn't check it. :-( I'm a bit suprised
> From: Fritz Mueller
> I should go read up on QSIC.
There's not much on the Web, alas. We have two working prototypes (a wirewrap
QBUS mother-board with bus transceivers, level converters, etc, connected to
an FPGA prototyp ung card by flat cables), and working FPGA code to emulate an
R
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Kernel boots on my actual hardware, but an "ls" in single-user mode
> generates a "Memory error -- core dumped".
Oh, yeah, your hardware definitely has issues, then.
> So evidence is mounting that I really do have some sort of issue with
> my MS11-L.
> From: Fritz Mueller
PS:
> I could work to extract the core file
Can PDP11GUI save output from the -11's console? If so, just say 'od core',
and send me the output.
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
PPS:
> I could work to extract the core file
I just checked, and the binary for the 'ls' command is what's called 'pure
code'; i.e. the instructions are in a separate (potentially shared) block of
memory from the process' data (un-shared).
I don't recall off the to
> I don't recall off the top of my head whether the location of that
> shared block of memory is in the per-process swappable kernel data
> (which is included in the process core dump).
So I checked, and the swappable per-process kernel data does in fact include
pre-computed contents f
> the swappable per-process kernel data does in fact include pre-computed
> contents for all the memory management registers, so we'll be able to
> see (from the process core dump) where the code and data segments were.
Uh, no. The copies there are 'prototypes', later modified for actu
> From: Bill Degnan
> I attempted to port the same version of unix to an rl02 disk pack and
> to run on an actual 11/40. I was able to get ir to boot up to the #
> prompt but my system does not have a working EIS card to proceed any
> further.
I"m incredibly surprised that you
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> I have a number of different memory modules. Mostly DEC but a couple
> zthird party. Here's the problem. None of them are reflected in any of
> the documentation I have been able to find so I can't configure them
> away from their defaults! ...
> A
> From: Fritz Mueller fritzm at fritzm.org
> I'm assuming that if I had to release the media from the hub in order
> to true it, its value as an alignment cartridge would be lost anyway.
Yes and no The RK05 alignment pack is mostly to make sure that the fine
lateral track adjustm
Not my thing (I'm into earlier stuff):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/392212420626?
but I thought I'd post it since it's filed in an unusual place.
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
> I think I see an H960 with a couple DEC half panels stuck on it peeking
> out of the very back there...
Two H960's, actually - it looks like there's another one in front of that
one.
If the half panels are for sale, I'll take them! :-)
Noel
> From: Allison Parent
> Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken.
The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is
the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my
workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii)
> From: Fritz Mueller
> They'd nicely compliment or house those new QSIC indicator panels
> you've been working up, huh? :-)
Complement. I already have a large stack of empty bezels, acquired to hold
the indicator panels... :-)
Although Dave Bridgham has been playing with the CNC mil
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