> From: Paul Koning
>> The DEC font uses a zero with a slash
> For that, a capital O with a slash would probably serve.
Actually, it turns out that only earlier panels (e.g. KA10, TC08, etc) use the
slashed zero; later ones (KI10, RP11, etc) use the ordinary ones. Since our
panel is
> From: Jason T
> According to my notes, for the VCFMW8 shirts ... I used DIN Next Pro
> Rounded Medium for the panel text, although the font I had in my work
> directory is "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the
> font next to the knob on the right and the
So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html
or, at least, a very close match?
For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a
really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the
> We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D
> panels.
PS: Here's the latest rev of our thinking:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/inlay-rk11-f3.pdf
if anyone has any comments. (Since the format is entirely set by the FPGA,
it's 'easy' to tweak
> From: Eric Smith
> 3 Mbps was sometimes referred to as experimental Ethernet, but AFAIK
> the only official name was "Ethernet".
> The best way to refer to it is probably "3 Mbps Ethernet".
I was trying to remember what we called it at MIT (which had one), but my
memory was
> From: Eric Smith
> I think the account given in the book may be a bit confused on this
> point. ... That sequence of events is contradicted by Pelkey ...
> describes the name change from Alto Aloha to Ether as happening in May
> 1973 in agreement with WWSUL, except that in
> From: Bill Degnan
> What is the part number for the -D ?
Do you have the inners? The only -D inners I know of are the kind shown here:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/BA11-D_Mounting_Box
and if you have those, you're in luck; the outers from a still-available
Chassis Track unit are perfect
> From: systems_glitch
> I do have the inner rails/latch system for tilting the box, they are
> plain aluminum.
Like the lower picture:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/BA11-K_mounting_box
there? I'm guessing that's zinc-plated steel.
Alas, I don't know who made those (may have been DEC
> From: Paul Anderson
> I don't remember the D tilting.
http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:BA11-DSide.jpg
This is very similar to the slides on the BA11 (-11/20), which also had the
rotation, so I suspect they were all this way (i.e. there no early versions
without, etc). Having said that, if
> From: Andrew Luke Nesbit ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org
> Where are you located?
Like the listing says, "north side of Boston".
Noel
> From: Keven Miller
> I found that I have a copy of X3J11-88-001
I turned up a copy of X3J11/87-221; the one before that was X3J11/87-140.
Noel
> From: Bill Degnan
> I am curious how I'd attempt to use one of these. Any thoughts?
I'd start by dumping and disassembling.
(If you need something to find out where in memory they are, I have
a register discovery program that sweeps the I/O page and lists all
locations that respond.
> From: Cory Heisterkamp
> I can also highly recommend the book 'Digital Apollo'
Yes, it's quite good. Two other good books about the AGC are:
Eldon Hall, "Journey to the Moon"
which is by a guy who was one of the managers on the project. The book is
anything but a 'management
> From: Eric Smith
> That's way too good for these
Oh, one thing I forgot to include:
> a lot of the incoming power in that 30V AC has to be thrown away, in
> producing +5V.
So, if my understanding is correct, the 'switching' H744 really isn't much
better than a classic linear supply. It still wastes a very large amount of
the input
> From: Mattis Lind
> The H744 is a buck converter. You can read about buck converters here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter
Wow, that was incredibly hard to read; no clear and simple explanation of the
basic concept of how it works, before getting into the details!
So there's something about the H744 I'm not sure I understand; hopefully those
with more analog-fu will set me straight if I'm confused.
This supply runs off 20-30V AC. It takes the input AC, rectifies it, and runs
it through a cap to filter out the ripple. What's next is that it's an early
> From: Brent Hilpert
> In typical "down-converters" there are additional current paths in the
> supply, paralleling the input path, that can provide the 'additional'
> electron flow rate. ... the whole rationale of a switching supply is to
> use time (varying switching
> From: Alexandre Souza
> What about a nuclear bomb?
OK, if we're going to start being _really_ silly. drop them into a
singularity! :-)
The best part is that you'll get to watch them being ripped apart and
destroyed by tidal forces _forever_ (since time dilation means that as they
> From: Brent Hilpert
> Your conceptualisation around the role of electrons is perhaps a
> little off.
Well, I'm not taking into effect things like the velocity of electrons
passing around the circuit (more current, with the same number of electrons,
effectively), etc, but I
Anyone recognize these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/183446161463
They've got a fair amount of wire-wrap, so I'd think 70's-80's.
Noel
> From: Mark Tapley
> I'm interested in one of the DECServers but Bill says it's big
> enough to be in the "pick up only" pile. ... drop it at a Pak/n/Ship or
> equivalent to get it headed my way.
PakMail will go pick stuff up.
If several people get together, they could make
> From: Brent Hilpert
> With the given 20-30VAC input (do I have that right?)
Yup.
> A glance at the schematic ... you might think it's just a linear
> regulator
And the writeup in the maint manual gives that impression too, which didn't
help! (Hence my assumtion that it was
> From: Paul Koning
>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:
>> ...
>> There are one or two bits in a register of the RK11 that have a
>> different meaning/function, depending on the controller being a -C or
>> -D.
> If someone can point me to
> From: Al Kossow
> I do not archive any paper myself.
There are quite a few silver-dish lovers; you might be able to raise some
funds by listing stuff on eBait (although I can easily see that maybe it
would be more hassle than it's worth).
> Currently, I am being asked to reduce my
> From: Fritz Mueller
> All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing just fine.
Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12:
"Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems."
:-)
Noel
The copy of the KD11-EA engineering drawings (in the 11/34A Field Maintenance
Print Set, MP-00190) on Bitsavers is missing most of the pages that hold the
microcode flow diagrams. I have a set of the KD11-EA FMPS (MP-00192), which
does have all the missing pages, which I can eventually scan.
> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
> I think it's also telling that the IETF uses the term octet in all of
> the specifications to refer to 8-bit sized data.
Yes; at the time the TCP/IP specs were done, PDP-10's were still probably the
most numerous machines on the 'net, so we were careful to
> From: Grant Taylor
> Is "byte" the correct term for 6-bits? I thought a "byte" had always
> been 8-bits.
I don't claim wide familiary with architectural jargon from the early days,
but the PDP-10 at least (I don't know about other prominent 36-bit machines
such as the IBM
> From: William Donzelli
>> in 1980, there were more PDP-11's, world-wide, than any other kind of
>> computer.
> I bet the guys at Zilog might have something to talk to you about.
I was quoting my memory of a DEC ad in the WSJ, which now that I go check,
says the -11 was "the
> From: Jorg Hoppe
> Now you can painlessly plug a physical 11/70 panel
So I'm curious about the flat cables to the -11/70 console, which have been
taken apart into individual conductors. I am wondering why?
This doesn't seem to have been done because you needed to re-order them (they
> From: Al Kossow
> I found the brochure for the board
Ah, thanks very much! I had some details (from my old driver), but this
discovery of yours answers my open questions (e.g. board format).
Noel
> From: Chuck Guzis
> Maybe paper is obsolete and I'm just behind the times.
You and me both... :-)
Noel
> From: Zane Healy
> Paper is an archival medium
If you want archival, you really need to go the 'baked clay tablet' approach..
:-)
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
> it flagged a bunch of memory locations that weren't reported by my much
> simpler diagnostic (which only does all-ones/all-zeros passes looking for
> stuck bits at this point.)
What is is complaining about?
> The MAINDEC memory diagnostic is bulky
> From: Paul Koning
> It checks if the bits 007750 are active in the parity CSR, if so it
> takes that to be an address/ECC parity CSR.
That's odd; those are the 'error address' bits. Maybe there's an assumption
that the sweep of memory to size it will have caused a parity error from
> From: Fritz Mueller
> The most efficient way I think would be to work up a simple LDA loader
> that would fit in a boot sector, and load a diagnostic from contiguous
> disk starting at the second sector. It would then be easy to blast down
> just the boot sector and a
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Worked up some simple standalone diagnostics to map and test all the
> memory on my 256K MS11-P. Sure enough, I'm seeing some stuck bits at
> various addresses in physical address range 70-75.
Excellent news. (Sorry I've gone quiet - I got
> Even better, it claims to be able to control whether the memory uses odd
> or even parity! (How, for UNIBUS memory, I don't know - there's no way to
do
> this over the UNIBUS.
So this really confused me, as the UNIBUS spec says parity is wholly within
the slave device, and only an
In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly
working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea
what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html
Comments/error-checking etc welcome.
> From: Paul Koning
> For that matter, core memory details such as destructive read weren't
> visible to the CPU
Umm, not quite. If you'd said 'core memory details such as destructive read
weren't visible to the _program_', you'd have been 100% correct.
But as I suspect you know,
> From: Chris Hanson
> Do you mean you would prefer to visit a web page to read the latest
> posts on cctalk rather than have them delivered to you via email?
Hey, that's how I read CCTalk:
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
I don't want all this cruft clogging up my
> From: Bill Degnan
> It's pretty well researched at this point to be true to state that the
> first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20. It just takes a while
> for this to work its way through academia.
Some places got the message a while ago:
>> people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other
>> -8's.
So my assumption (that it was recent) seems to be incorrect; I heard that it
was in use in the 60's to differentiate it (e.g. for knowing what spares to
take). Alas, with the origin that far back in time,
> From: Mattis Lind
> I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from.
They're called 'System Modules':
http://gunkies.org/wiki/System_Module
and they were used from the PDP-1 through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this
PDP-7 internals image:
> through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this PDP-7 internals image
> .. seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the
> bottom.
After groveling through the 'PDP-7 Maintainence Manual' (F-77A), this seems to
be accurate. In "Module Identification" (pg. 6-5), it refers
> From: Kyle Owen
> Gah...just found it.
We've all been there... :-)
Noel
> From: Al Kossow
> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors
My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal 'model'
for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
BITD), and people recently picked that to
Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!
Noel
> From: Allison
> IC as in digital logic were in production in the early 60s
Yes, but if you look at the picture/manual (I found a "Module location for
I/O" chart on pg. 335 of the PDP-7 Maint Manual - alas, not the whole
machine, just the FLIP CHIP part), the PDP-7 is all B-series and
> From>: Christian Corti
> I thought that the DEC packs would be similar but no, DEC had to invent
> something different...
Huh? I thought RL0x drives use an IBM 5440 type pack (as used on the IBM
System/3 - I used one of those at my first computer job, they'd just gotten
it in); DEC
> From: Paul Birkel
>> I thought RL0x drives use an IBM 5440 type pack (as used on the IBM
>> System/3 DEC may have used their own format (and servo track
>> stuff), I don't know much about the 5440.
> Sounds to me like it was different, but in a good way?
I took a
> From: Jay Jaeger
> I have finished the 3rd phase of my IBM 1410 SMS computer
> reverse-engineering project. ... The ALDs comprise 752 pages from 9 of
> the 11 total volumes of system schematics/engineering drawings ... It
> took me roughly 375 hours of time (probably more
> From: Jay Jaeger
> That code would not run in Windows of course, but it wouldn't be all
> that difficult for someone with a C programming background to move it
> to Windows under gnucc, or even Microsoft C++ or C#.
I highly recommend CygWin (which comes with 'gnucc) for doing C
For some actual content about classic computers (instead of flaming about
various ideas for improving existing systems), I think I've worked out
why the BA11-C and BA11-E mounting boxes have out of sequence variant codes.
It's obvious the variants were not assigned in creation order (the /44 and
> On a whim, I tried searching for '"pdp-11" "pdp-11"' (i.e. just
> repeated the keyword), and this time it _did_ turn it up! Very odd.
> I wonder why that made a difference?
So I have a new theory about this. Searching for 'pdp-11' causes eBay to
automagically limit the search to
> From: Camiel Vanderhoeven
> I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on
> it - the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling
> application
Neat! Excellent! Do you have the source for any/all of the software on it?
Noel
I thought cctalk was supposed to be a complete superset of cctech, but
looking at the cctech archives, I see a lot of posts that didn't make it
to cctalk. Does one need to do both to see everything?
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
>>
http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/
> Hmm, this link didn't work for me
Arggh, sorry. I simply copied the link from my page:
http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html
and didn't check it. :-( I'm a bit
> From: Fritz Mueller
> I should go read up on QSIC.
There's not much on the Web, alas. We have two working prototypes (a wirewrap
QBUS mother-board with bus transceivers, level converters, etc, connected to
an FPGA prototyp ung card by flat cables), and working FPGA code to emulate an
> From: Fritz Mueller
PS:
> I could work to extract the core file
Can PDP11GUI save output from the -11's console? If so, just say 'od core',
and send me the output.
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Kernel boots on my actual hardware, but an "ls" in single-user mode
> generates a "Memory error -- core dumped".
Oh, yeah, your hardware definitely has issues, then.
> So evidence is mounting that I really do have some sort of issue with
> my MS11-L.
> From: Fritz Mueller
PPS:
> I could work to extract the core file
I just checked, and the binary for the 'ls' command is what's called 'pure
code'; i.e. the instructions are in a separate (potentially shared) block of
memory from the process' data (un-shared).
I don't recall off the
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Oh, one last thing: if anybody else out there has a real working '11/45
> + RK05 and wants to try this RSTS image, let me know, and I'll send you
> a copy (all 2.5MB of it, hah). It'd be interesting to see if this a
> really just limited to my machine?
> From: Dave Wade
> The only machine I know where a "byte" is not eight bits is the
> Honeywell L6000 and its siblings
I'm not sure why I bother to post to this list, since apparently people don't
bother to read my messages.
>From the "pdp10 reference handbook", 1970, section 2.3,
> I guess I'll do up a cheat sheet.
OK, first crack here:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Upgrading_UNIX_Sixth_Edition
If there are any improvement I can/should make, please let me know.
Thanks!
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Thanks, Noel -- I'll give that a try!
Sure - always glad to help with anything V6 related - that's my chief
technical amusement, now that I'm retired! :-) Any questions/issues, let me
know, and I'll try and get right back.
When booting UNIX, remember make sure
> From: Fritz Mueller
> I've thought about that; Unix V6 is actually next on my list of OS's to
> try. I think I have seen a fairly detailed set of instructions on
> building an image from this from the commonly available distribution
> tape.
Yeah, one comes with the V6
> From: Fritz Mueller
>> the last microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744.
> So what's at 002 now? Maybe something new was required there by micro
> branch/fork logic, so the original contents had to be moved?
Well, it turns out I've been transcribing the
Not my thing (I'm into earlier stuff):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/392212420626?
but I thought I'd post it since it's filed in an unusual place.
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller fritzm at fritzm.org
> I'm assuming that if I had to release the media from the hub in order
> to true it, its value as an alignment cartridge would be lost anyway.
Yes and no The RK05 alignment pack is mostly to make sure that the fine
lateral track
> From: Fritz Mueller
> I think I see an H960 with a couple DEC half panels stuck on it peeking
> out of the very back there...
Two H960's, actually - it looks like there's another one in front of that
one.
If the half panels are for sale, I'll take them! :-)
Noel
> I don't recall off the top of my head whether the location of that
> shared block of memory is in the per-process swappable kernel data
> (which is included in the process core dump).
So I checked, and the swappable per-process kernel data does in fact include
pre-computed contents
> From: Bill Degnan
> I attempted to port the same version of unix to an rl02 disk pack and
> to run on an actual 11/40. I was able to get ir to boot up to the #
> prompt but my system does not have a working EIS card to proceed any
> further.
I"m incredibly surprised that
> the swappable per-process kernel data does in fact include pre-computed
> contents for all the memory management registers, so we'll be able to
> see (from the process core dump) where the code and data segments were.
Uh, no. The copies there are 'prototypes', later modified for
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> I have a number of different memory modules. Mostly DEC but a couple
> zthird party. Here's the problem. None of them are reflected in any of
> the documentation I have been able to find so I can't configure them
> away from their defaults! ...
>
> From: Daniel Seagraves
> Two of them in fact, and a CADR - In my garage, no less!
Neat! Can you say anything about how they came to you?
> and I have a working PDP-11 to debug the CADR with
Was that part of the package, or did you already have it?
Noel
> From: Pierre Gebhardt
> There are indeed some DEC power brick models on epay, but none
> regarding the H745.
Here is one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/270303423286
but it is _really_ pricey. I have dealt with them before, they put high
prices on things; try offering them a
> From: Henk Gooijen
> As far as I know, the 11/40 uses only one H745.
Depends on what kind of memory it has. If MF11-L, it has two H745's; if
MM11-U, it has an H745 and an H754.
(The harness has two different connectors for the 5th 'brick', so it can
handle either kind. At least,
> From: Pierre Gebhardt
> two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be very
> happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location is
> in Germany.
There should be some on eBait; mildly expensive, but if you get them from
the US, the shipping is
> From: Daniel Seagraves
> I spun up a blog for posting the ongoing status of things;
Cool! Thanks! Very interesting...
How many cards came with the CADR? My memory is dim, are there just memory
and I/O cards, or was the disk controller on a separate card from other I/O?
I wonder how
> From: Pierre Gebhardt
> As I don't have core memory modules available, I thought of using MS11
> memory, which, according to my research, seems to be an option for
> 11/40 systems.
Err, which kind of MS11? There are lots of different ones:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/MS11
and
> From: Paul Koning
>>> core memory details such as destructive read weren't visible to the
>>> CPU
> DATAIP/DATAO on the Unibus doesn't depend on the destructive read
> property.
Yes, the CPU can't tell what the memory is doing.
> The reason it existed is that it
> From: Electronics Plus
> I did not bring the stuff home. ... Call John Adler ... he owns the
> stuff in the sheds.
Now I am completely confused. What happened to the online spread-sheet that
some of us filled out? Did that go to him? If so, does the fact that we've
heard nothing
> From: Fritz Mueller
> I would really like to track down any of the following resources:
> - PDP 11/45 system engineering drawings *earlier* than those currently
> available on bitsavers (Jun '74)
My KB11-A prints have an 'overall' date of "4/76" (on the front page), but
prints
> From: William Donzelli
> It is very likely IBM does not have the information anymore - at least
> not in the archives. ... they simply did not keep much from that era.
> It was probably disposed of back when IBM was in trouble 30 years ago.
Which emphasizes that it's important
So, if anyone wants a CDC 6600 module for their mantle/shelf/etc, here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283426116822
is someone selling some for a non-ridiculous amount of money (the latter being
common with this type of thing).
No connection with the seller, other than buying one myself.
> From: Ben Bfranchuk
> Now they seem to have have found a SCRAPPED Apollo guidance
> computer and am rebuilding the missing pieces.
Wow. What a great site (and that guy has mad skills, everything from
repairing old Teletypes, through designing boards, to repairing analog
stuff).
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> when I get it done I will be glad to provide you with a dump of the
> root and usr partitions. I may be able to do SIMH disk images as well,
> but I have been working mostly with E11.
E11 disk images in files aren't anything odd, just a straight bit-bit
The following, which I just sent to TUHS, might be of intererest to some here.
Noel
So, a while back I mentioned that I'd done tweaked versions of 'cp', 'mv',
'chmod' etc for V6 which retained the original modified date of a file (when
the actual contents were not changed). I had some
> From: Al Kossow
> because it's $125 lower than the last one that sold.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/113190860596
Wow - somebody got a real deal! Looks like the seller listed it as
a BiN with a low (for what it was) price; bet they're kicking themselves
now, seeing what this one is
> From: Guy Dunphy
> What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so
> often get separated from the rest of the computer?
I suspect it probably happened a while back, before the start of the vintage
computer movement; you need to look at the decisions from the
> From: Rick Bensene
> upstairs to the computer room and take some photos of the KA-10
Wow! That's a rara avis indeed; I wasn't sure there were any left. Does
anyone know where this one came from?
Noel
> From: Al Kossow
> Decades later, people are still afraid to release them. I tried to get
> 2065 ALDs from someone that had them and they wouldn't give them to me.
Sounds like it's time to have someone high up at the CHM talk to someone
at IBM to get an OK; if you only ask for
> From: Mattis Lind
>> Ah. I wonder where it came from originally?
> It has been in use at STACKEN at least since the beginning of the 80ies
I was meaning before that; somewhere in Scandanavia, I expect? Eh, not that
important, I guess.
>> And it's odd (to me, at least) to see
> From: Mattis Lind
> It is KATIA. Peter Lothbergs collection.
Ah. I wonder where it came from originally?
That looks like a relatively 'new' one; the older KA10's had black panels.
And it's odd (to me, at least) to see TU56's on a KA10.
I wonder how many KA10's are left in the world?
> From: Phil Budne
> I'm betting it was a speedup to not fork/exec another process if it was
> going to be a null transform!
It's worse than that! In vanilla V6, the pre-processor is built into 'cc',
not a separate command.
Here's the relevant code (from expand()):
if
> From: Jay Jaeger
> I have EK-11060-OP-003: "PDP-11/60 installation and operation manual"
> and an update EK-11060-OP-C1.
Yeah, that's the one I referred to as "the general -11/60 manual"; generally,
there's one such for all the -11 models, but the exact name varies from model
to
Hi, does anyone have any PDP-11/60 manuals? I went to do articles on the
-11/60 and its CPU (KD11-K), but there isn't much online.
Bitsavers has EK-KD11K-TD-PRE, but it only covers the maintenance features,
not the whole CPU; there is a tech manual - KD11K-TM-001 (I have it in fiche,
but my fiche
> From: Bill Degnan
> The 11/60 handbook doesn't have that kind of designation. It's EB06498
Yeah, that's the processor handbook, which is the paperback-sized thing which
is mostly a programmer's reference; I've got that, its the 8-1/2x11 sized
things I'm after.
> From: Ethan Dicks
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