Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-06 Thread Sam
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Casey Dougall wrote: > > Capitalism is based on making money form the sum of the group. - This works > in many areas of our society we pay for goods and services all day, every > day. If you "want" something, you work and pay for it. Seems like a simple > enough co

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-06 Thread Sam
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Maureen wrote: > > In his world of stereotypes and hyperbole, anyone who is slightly to > the left of Darth Vader is defined as a liberal.  I I have to sit on > my hands to refrain from asking him to spell it and define it. > He is right that I didn't like Bush.

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-06 Thread Casey Dougall
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:26 PM, Sam wrote: > > define just > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Judah McAuley > wrote: > > > > Far from it Scott. Socialism is about intervention into the market > > economy by the people (working through their instrument, the > > government) in order to try and p

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Maureen
In his world of stereotypes and hyperbole, anyone who is slightly to the left of Darth Vader is defined as a liberal. I I have to sit on my hands to refrain from asking him to spell it and define it. He is right that I didn't like Bush. What he misses is the long list of liberals I don't like,

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
What is that buzzing? Sounds like a fly. Very annoying. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Dana wrote: > > he thinks you are a liberal because you didn't like Bush. That is what he > called everyone who didn't. > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Maureen wrote: > >> >> There is nothing you could

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Dana
he thinks you are a liberal because you didn't like Bush. That is what he called everyone who didn't. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Maureen wrote: > > There is nothing you could say that would make me cry. I protest when > you call me a liberal because I'm not. Libertarian perhaps, Radical

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Maureen wrote: > > There is nothing you could say that would make me cry.  I protest when > you call me a liberal because I'm not. Libertarian perhaps,  Radical > or even Anarchist, but I have never had a liberal mindset. You're in denial. You are moonbat level l

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Maureen
There is nothing you could say that would make me cry. I protest when you call me a liberal because I'm not. Libertarian perhaps, Radical or even Anarchist, but I have never had a liberal mindset. I just hate all government and the endless lies and spin of the politicians and pundits, and want

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Scott Stroz
Are you talking welfare or unemployment? Two distinctly different kinds of assistance. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Dana wrote: > > note, and only if you have some semi-good reason, like a very small child. > You can't just randomly not work. > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Maureen wrote

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Scott Stroz
When I worked as a medic in Jersey City, I dealt with 2nd and 3rd generation welfare families who prided themselves on the fact that they get welfare and no one in the family has worked for 30+ years. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Maureen wrote: > > There is nothing in any current economic or

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Scott Stroz
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: > > A purely government-driven centrally planned economy is a recipe for > disaster. So is unrestrained capitalism which has no guiding force > other than individual excess. I am not sure I could ever agree with you more. -- Scott Stroz ---

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
Spot on, and I loved Moynihan never realizing he was a neocon. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/04/AR2010020403698_2.html?sid=ST2010020403858 Starting in the 1960s, the original neoconservative critics such as Daniel Patrick Moynihan expressed distress about the break

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
There's the Judah I know On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Sam wrote: >> Is neo-con politically correct? Don't you cry when I refer to you as a >> liberal? So why do you throw neo-con (Jew) out there? I don't mind, I >> admit I am a neo-con

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Dana
is it politically correct to worry about polical correctness? On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Sam wrote: > > Is neo-con politically correct? Don't you cry when I refer to you as a > > liberal? So why do you throw neo-con (Jew) out there?

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Judah McAuley
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Sam wrote: > Is neo-con politically correct? Don't you cry when I refer to you as a > liberal? So why do you throw neo-con (Jew) out there? I don't mind, I > admit I am a neo-con, just questioning your motives. I would never call you a Jew. I like Jews and respect

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
Thanks to Clinton for signing welfare reform, before that you were paid by the child and less if you were married. See what kind of problems that could cause? I heard in passing that Obama is trying to revert back to the pre-Clinton welfare system. Anyone else know about that? Is neo-con politic

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Dana
note, and only if you have some semi-good reason, like a very small child. You can't just randomly not work. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Maureen wrote: > > There is nothing in any current economic or governmental theory that > encourages people who are capable of working to not work. Even

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Maureen
There is nothing in any current economic or governmental theory that encourages people who are capable of working to not work. Even the existing welfare system in the US has restrictions on how long you can be paid without working. The only place a system such as the one you describe exists is i

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: > > You think we see the balance differently but you don't ever bother to > engage, just demagogue. Sorry, I figured you'd be into your usual name calling by now. Was expecting you actually wanting to engage. My bad. > I don't believe in enc

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Dana
and he has read neither. My favorite but in Wealth of Nations was where Smith points out that capitalism is better than feudalism or slavery, since both slaves and serfs need to be fed. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: > > You are mistaking Communism/Fascism and Socialism,

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Judah McAuley
You think we see the balance differently but you don't ever bother to engage, just demagogue. I don't believe in encouraging people to quit their jobs in search of a hand out and I believe in rewarding hard work. There is a reason I've started more than one company, why I've hired and fired employ

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Judah McAuley
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Sam wrote: > I admit it's been thirty years since I read it but I remember it differently. > The workers would take over everything and share evenly. > Redistribution. If you couldn't work or chose not to you would still > be treated and compensated as an equal. I

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
You're right. Sorry. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:52 PM, morgan l wrote: > > Of course I do, see this paragraph in my response: >> Let's face it, Socialism, Liberalism, and Conservatism are all ideals that >> cannot survive on their own merit, Not a one of them can. They are all >> flawed, albeit in

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
True but we see the balance differently. Yes help the needy but don't encourage people to quit their jobs and put there handout. Many great workers can easily become lazy slobs if encouraged. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: > > A purely government-driven centrally planned ec

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread morgan l
Of course I do, see this paragraph in my response: > Let's face it, Socialism, Liberalism, and Conservatism are all ideals that > cannot survive on their own merit, Not a one of them can. They are all > flawed, albeit in varying and different ways On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Sam wrote: >

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: > > You are mistaking Communism/Fascism and Socialism, Sam. And you aren't > even characterizing Marx correctly anyway. Marx was critiquing feudal > economies where a ruling aristocracy controlled the flow of all capita > and means of productio

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
If you want to play you can't just throw out communist talking points. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Vivec wrote: > > You are right Sam. > > The system that you operate under which produced the biggest financial > disaster in a century is the better system. > > The system which continuously p

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
Remove all classes and property rights and we'll all be equal. Do you the gaping flaw with that allowing someone, anyone to step in and start distributing? Justly of course. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:27 PM, morgan l wrote: > > No, you are once again very wrong. > > Marx' ideal has no government,

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Judah McAuley
That is exactly the problem and why the balance of government intervention, free markets, social welfare programs, taxation structure, etc are in a continuing flux. Different governments in different places at different times have struck different balances and none of them are anywhere near perfec

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Judah McAuley
You are mistaking Communism/Fascism and Socialism, Sam. And you aren't even characterizing Marx correctly anyway. Marx was critiquing feudal economies where a ruling aristocracy controlled the flow of all capita and means of production, so that the people doing the producing (mostly agricultural b

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Vivec
You are right Sam. The system that you operate under which produced the biggest financial disaster in a century is the better system. The system which continuously produces higher Human Living Indexes and Quality of Life ratings is obviously flawed and inferior. On 5 February 2010 17:26, Sam w

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread morgan l
No, you are once again very wrong. Marx' ideal has no government, and therefore no "leader." Stalin and Lenin corrupted the ideal, which could never truly survive with human beings in existence, into the total control of everything by the government. Let's face it, Socialism, Liberalism, and Co

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
define just On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: > > Far from it Scott. Socialism is about intervention into the market > economy by the people (working through their instrument, the > government) in order to try and produce a more just and equitable > economy. > ~~~

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Judah McAuley
Far from it Scott. Socialism is about intervention into the market economy by the people (working through their instrument, the government) in order to try and produce a more just and equitable economy. Judah On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Scott Stroz wrote: > > Socialism is basically taking f

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
I was right! On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:20 PM, morgan l wrote: > > Don't know, never heard of it, and I'm not a Socialist, so you're asking the > wrong person. > > I base my views of the "ideals" of Socialism on Karl Marx' thoughts: "from > each according to his ability, to each according to his n

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
Everybody's money and property goes into a pot and dear leader decides who gets what. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Scott Stroz wrote: > > Well, then what is the 'ideal' socialism? > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:08 PM, morgan l wrote: >> >> That is the demon that hard-line conservatives paint S

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread morgan l
Don't know, never heard of it, and I'm not a Socialist, so you're asking the wrong person. I base my views of the "ideals" of Socialism on Karl Marx' thoughts: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". To me, that says: "if you can work, work", not "taking from those w

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Scott Stroz
Well, then what is the 'ideal' socialism? On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:08 PM, morgan l wrote: > > That is the demon that hard-line conservatives paint Socialism as, but is > far from the truth of the ideal of Socialism. > > > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Scott Stroz wrote: > >> Socialism is ba

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
Isn't Das Kapital the book on ideal socialism? On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:08 PM, morgan l wrote: > > That is the demon that hard-line conservatives paint Socialism as, but is > far from the truth of the ideal of Socialism. ~| Wan

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread morgan l
That is the demon that hard-line conservatives paint Socialism as, but is far from the truth of the ideal of Socialism. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Scott Stroz wrote: > Socialism is basically taking from those who choose to work and giving > to those who choose not to. > ~~~

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Scott Stroz
Socialism is basically taking from those who choose to work and giving to those who choose not to. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Maureen wrote: > > Because the talk radio hosts could no longer scare their dittohead > followers with the word liberal,  they made socialists the new Satans. > > Mo

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Maureen
Because the talk radio hosts could no longer scare their dittohead followers with the word liberal, they made socialists the new Satans. Most of those railing against Socialism have no idea what it is. They are just sprouting whatever comes from Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at

Re: Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Judah McAuley
Socalism has a lot to recommend it. Most of the countries in the world operate somewhere in the socialist-capitalist spectrum, including the United States. Why would anyone have a problem with a positive image of socialism? Judah On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Sam wrote: > > I knew it all alo

Majority of Democrats like socialism

2010-02-05 Thread Sam
I knew it all along, I'm just surprised with their honesty :) - A majority of 53% of Democrats have a positive image of socialism, compared to 17% of Republicans. - Sixty-one percent of liberals say their image of socialism is positive, compared to 39% of moderates and 20% of conservatives. htt