On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:50:50 -0400, S . Isaac Dealey wrote:
[...]
>Funny thing is, during the days of CF3 I wasn't very happy with the
>IDE's available at the time. I used to use a shareware (registered for
>$30) HTML editor that didn't even have syntax highlighting called
>Anansi because it was th
> At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote:
>> > It all depends on the types of things you ask someone
>> > to
>> > write out
>> > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or
>> > CFOUTPUT is simply
>> > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise.
>>
>>Whereas it's okay for someone not to
> At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote:
>> > It all depends on the types of things you ask someone
>> > to
>> > write out
>> > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or
>> > CFOUTPUT is simply
>> > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise.
>>
>>Whereas it's okay for someone not to
or how about ?
:)
At 02:33 PM 8/10/2004, you wrote:
>I suppose you've never heard of CFSLIDER then?
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Glenn Saunders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:18:40 -0700
>Subject: Re: knowing syntax during an interview w
I suppose you've never heard of CFSLIDER then?
- Original Message -
From: Glenn Saunders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:18:40 -0700
Subject: Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
To: CF-Jobs-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
At 07:50 AM 8/1
I agree with Glenn to an extent. I've worked with many CF developers that
have been on opposite ends of the experience spectrum. I've known decent
developers that spent a fair amount of time looking stuff up in the docs.
I've
known other developers that could write 95% of their code without ever
Subject: RE: The job market
I agree. Any test has to be absolutely relevant to the development. Also,
with a bit of care, you could sit them down in the actual development
environment, including Homesite, Dreamweaver or ColdFusion Studio and get
them to do some stuff - no multiple choice ever
H, although I agree about making the effort, spare a thought for us with
designer stubble, I have sensitive skin! :OD
Ade
-Original Message-
From: Doug White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 10 August 2004 05:18
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: The job market
Those that
How many people were hoping for a mistake in this?!? :OP
Just messin' with you Glen :OD
Ade
-Original Message-
From: Glenn Saunders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 10 August 2004 04:56
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: The job market
Having to
memorize something
At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote:
> > It all depends on the types of things you ask someone to
> > write out
> > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or
> > CFOUTPUT is simply
> > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise.
>
>Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately
> You may never have to develop WITHOUT Cold Fusion Studio
> by your side. But I still expect you to be able to show
> me you can work without a net.
Funny thing is, during the days of CF3 I wasn't very happy with the
IDE's available at the time. I used to use a shareware (registered for
$30) HTM
> It all depends on the types of things you ask someone to
> write out
> manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or
> CFOUTPUT is simply
> inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise.
Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately familiar with the
attributes of a or tag if
lows folks a bit of time to think and get the logic right
etc.
Anyway, the whole issue of interviewing could be discussed for a long time!
-Original Message-
From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:04 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: RE: The
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:56 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: The job market
At 05:19 AM 8/9/2004, you wrote:
>I will have to disagree on this one. It is not essential to be able to
>rattle off a bunch of attributes for every tag (even the most common
It is
While it wouldn't apply to what most of us do...
One of my clients has a list of questions that they use when interviewing
new help desk staff members. One of them is "describe how to tie your
shoe." They have to do this w/o using their hands, since hand movements
don't translate well over t
It is hard to believe that the following is true:
"You know, there is a LOT to memorize at our place. We have a big network
and everything is very poorly documented. Knowledge transfer is almost all
verbal. We have to memorize which database and which db server our systems
use for one thing. W
ckdoug.com
http://www.forta.com/cf/isp/isp.cfm?isp_id=1069
==
- Original Message -
From: Glenn Saunders
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: The job market
At 05:19 AM 8/9/2004, you wrote:
>I will have to di
At 05:19 AM 8/9/2004, you wrote:
>I will have to disagree on this one. It is not essential to be able to
>rattle off a bunch of attributes for every tag (even the most common
It is essential to me.
I may have said it already, but you know a lot of people throw out resumes
that have typos or are
At 07:26 AM 8/9/2004, you wrote:
>While I think it is good to have a experience in as many areas as you can,
>I think if you look for someone who enjoys learning, shows curiosity and
>interest in new technologies, and seems open-minded, you've won 90% of the
>battle.
So far I've interviewed onl
At 07:55 AM 8/9/2004, you wrote:
> Knowing what you can do
>is better than memorizing syntax. Who cares if I know all the syntax for
>CFHTTP? I know what it can do, and that is much more important than being
>able to spout off the attributes, right?
It's the association an interviewer will hav
Not to mention that with the use of DreamWeaver and other dev tools,
memorizing syntax is really a waste of time, IMHO. Knowing what you can do
is better than memorizing syntax. Who cares if I know all the syntax for
CFHTTP? I know what it can do, and that is much more important than being
a
I agree.
I once made the mistake of recommending someone for hire who was very
book smart. They blew me away at the interview with the stuff he knew
about DB design and programming. When he got hired, it appeared he had a
hard time implementing any of his book-smarts into real world
develo
languages, tools to build X solution for a client? Memorization of syntax only proves you can memorize things, it doesn't prove that you can actually THINK creatively and rationally about solving a problem or creating a solution...
From: Glenn Saunders
Sent: Sun 8/8/04 11:20 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Glenn Saunders wrote:
>Okay, I guess it's all about expectations. To me, CFML really isn't that
>deep of a language. There is far less to memorize than, say, all the
>built-in classes in Java or C#/VB.NET. I would expect people to know
>common tags backwards and forwards if they've done it
At 11:20 PM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
>At 06:49 PM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
> > E-mail me off list, then. I'd love some elaboration.
>
>This came up on Slashdot recently. Maybe you should check there.
For those interested, this is probably the thread Glenn refers to.
--
Jeffry Houser, Web Develope
At 06:49 PM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
> E-mail me off list, then. I'd love some elaboration.
This came up on Slashdot recently. Maybe you should check there.
> I wouldn't be able to tell you all the attributes of the cfapplication
>tag, yet that doesn't mean I don't understand CFs application fr
In this respect, my experience matches yours. Programmers have
traditionally gotten paid more than Graphic Designers.
As a small business owner, I often represent the "one stop web solution"
to small companies ("Joe's Ice Cream Shop") who don't have the need for
more than one computer, much
Well put.
At 03:48 PM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
>You're absolutely right. It is all supply and demand. So if you want a DBA,
>get a DBA. If you want a DBA who's also a front-end interface developer, ask
>for that. If you want a CF developer who can double as a DBA, ask for that.
>But you can't say ther
At 07:14 PM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
> As a small business owner I work with many other small businesses. I
>believe that Flash / graphic design would be a more marketable skill for me
>(my company) than CF, SQL Server, or DBA skills. If I walk into "Joe's Ice
>Cream Shop" and try to sell them a we
At 02:50 PM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
>Every job environment is different. Where I work we have dedicated
>designers. We don't care if CF developers are good at Flash or HTML layout
>because they aren't going to have to do any of that. They will have to be
>veritable DBAs as far as DB design and que
At 02:28 PM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
>At 05:20 PM 8/7/2004, you wrote:
> >I think the things that you specify are good things to know, but many of
> >them are database related and I think someone could know CF very well
> >without being heavy on the DB stuff. In fact, I don't think I've ever
> >worked
At 12:48 PM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
>But you can't say there aren't any good CF developers out there because they
>don't also have DBA equivalency.
To me, a Web developer (ASP, .NET, CF, PHP, PERL, JSP, or whatever) isn't
worth calling himself a web developer unless he has a certain minimum
compete
t their practices as Standard Operating
Procedure for finding work as an IT professional.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.logicsynthesis.com
-Original Message-
From: Glenn Saunders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 2:51 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: RE: The job market
At 11:03 AM 8/8/2004, you wrote:
>but with salary negotiating skills of a complete
>moron, or like they had just come out of school with no prior work history.
Demonizing the job search process is counter-productive because we all have
to participate in it whether we like it or not.
Both sides h
At 05:20 PM 8/7/2004, you wrote:
>I think the things that you specify are good things to know, but many of
>them are database related and I think someone could know CF very well
>without being heavy on the DB stuff. In fact, I don't think I've ever
>worked with a CF Developer heavy on the DB stuff
nly game in town. I'll be looking out for the signs
and avoiding that kind of setup like the plague, make no mistake.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.logicsynthesis.com
-Original Message-
From: frederic valone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 8:32 AM
To: C
I do have to agree about the lazyness of alot of those I interviewed. It
almost seemed like they were just "going through the motions".
I have been lucky enough to be consistently employed for the last 7
years. Also I have not had to interview in over 5 ( I was still working
but saw a job I wan
> 1) Learn how to write stored procedures, and learn how to
> call them with CFSTOREDPROC rather than just CFQUERY.
How about a function or custom tag that makes all the extra keystrokes
of cfstoredproc unnecessary without eliminating any of the power of
them? :)
> 2) Learn what @@IDENTITY and @@
> 12) If you are used to Oracle or MySQL or something,
> learn MS-SQL too. I don't care if Oracle doesn't have
> identity or not. Know how to work with
> databases that do have them.
Identities are common enough that I'd say everyone should have some
understanding of them... developers should ha
> 1) Learn how to write stored procedures, and learn how to
> call them with CFSTOREDPROC rather than just CFQUERY.
How about a function or custom tag that makes all the extra keystrokes
of cfstoredproc unnecessary without eliminating any of the power of
them? :)
> 2) Learn what @@IDENTITY and @@
> People who have never returned an output parameter via
> a stored procedure. To me this is really basic stuff.
> But some of these guys have years worth of
> experience based on their resumes.
You'd be surprised how many large and completely professional
companies never use stored procedures in
I think the things that you specify are good things to know, but many of
them are database related and I think someone could know CF very well
without being heavy on the DB stuff. In fact, I don't think I've ever
worked with a CF Developer heavy on the DB stuff. Most of them are heavy
on the
In addition to the list of "good stuff to know" listed below here, I
might add a few things based on my experience.
Background: I own and run a web solutions company where we service
mostly small businesses. It is a huge market and has served us well. I
have been "on my own" for 2.7 years now and Q
In addition to the list of "good stuff to know" listed below here, I
might add a few things based on my experience.
Background: I own and run a web solutions company where we service
mostly small businesses. It is a huge market and has served us well. I
have been "on my own" for 2.7 years now an
At 10:48 AM 8/7/2004, you wrote:
>An employer needs to be a bit flexible in looking for a prospective
>CFer. I know that I could easily "pad" my resume to fit the description
>you just put forth (without lying, I have worked with everything you
>listed and more) But I would not feel comfortable bei
> 1) Learn how to write stored procedures, and learn how to
> call them with CFSTOREDPROC rather than just CFQUERY.
How about a function or custom tag that makes all the extra keystrokes
of cfstoredproc unnecessary without eliminating any of the power of
them? :)
> 2) Learn what @@IDENTITY and @@
I have seen evidence of that too, And I know it comes back to bite the shop that
does that. It doesn't help you though. I guess an additional skill the
experienced developer must acquire is the ability to sell themselves, and make
sure the interviewer is made aware of your capabilities. This is
Hi Glenn,
I understand your frustration with finding a qualified cf developer. I
have spent alot of time interviewing cf talent and have never been able
to find anyone "qualified" to come in and be "up to speed' in our
environment ( ORACLE 8i/9i, solaris, dual jrun cfmx installs on separate
s
solely based upon who we worked for before.
_
From: Doug White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 10:39 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: The job market
That was a great write-up Glenn; Thoughtful and full of insight. I think
that
really will be helpful for
That was a great write-up Glenn; Thoughtful and full of insight. I think that
really will be helpful for developers looking for gigs. It would be great if
more of you journeymen would post your tips and tricks as well.
Most shops have a slightly different approach to projects, and this is born
50 matches
Mail list logo
