Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 6:08 PM, Charles Srstka via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > Seeing lots of `!` in production Swift is a code smell. > > Charles I wouldn’t call it a code smell. It’s worse. It’s actually asking for a crash if everything doesn’t work out perfectly and an expected result is nil

Re: Need for Swift

> This discussion about Swift vs Objective-C is interesting, but I think it > omits something important. Both those languages only build apps for Apple > products. This was probably “omitted” because it’s not actually true. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (

Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 10:52 AM, Turtle Creek Software > wrote: > > Diving down into C sounds like a reasonable option for a database library. > It does not sound good for a specialty app that does construction estimating > and accounting. I don't see the difference, for the purposes of thi

Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 10:44 PM, Laurent Daudelin via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > Are people supposed to know instinctively when you unwrap with “?” and when > you do with “!”? It’s quite simple; you nearly always unwrap with `?`. The tiny minority of the time that `!` is needed is when you *know*

Re: Need for Swift

Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2019, at 7:25 AM, Sandor Szatmari > wrote: > > Obj-C represents the freedom for me to write bad code if I need to… Believe me, I have been living in the results of the bad code that Swift allows developers to create. Debugging how a tap in a UITableViewCell

Re: Need for Swift

> Le 15 oct. 2019 à 04:43, Alex Zavatone via Cocoa-dev > a écrit : > > > >> On Oct 14, 2019, at 1:25 PM, Carl Hoefs via Cocoa-dev >> wrote: >> >> The group that likes Obj-C sees Swift as being "arbitrarily syntactical" >> with the syntax of the language getting in the way of programming.

Re: Need for Swift

> On 15 Oct 2019, at 18:27, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > MVC is an excellent design paradigm. The M and V layers were no problem at > all to set up. The C started out easy, but ended up being a big problem. > Quite a bit of the business logic is not just data, but fancy stuf

Re: Need for Swift

2-3 programmer-years seems a lot to me already. -Laurent. -- Laurent Daudelin laur...@nemesys-soft.com Skype: LaurentDaudelin Logiciels Némésys Software

Re: Need for Swift

Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2019, at 10:37 AM, John Joyce via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > > >> >> On Oct 15, 2019, at 22:58, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev >> wrote: >> >> Nobody >> is every going to write a full CAD, project management or business >> accounting app in either Swift

Re: Need for Swift

The push for server side Swift is interesting in that it embodies the philosophy of moving Swift to other platforms/arenas. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:57 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > This discussion about Swift vs Objective-C is interesting, but I thin

Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 11:27 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > The basic language problem as I see it is in the headers. Classes are > either Obj-C or C++ and can't be both. It turned out to be an enormous > barrier that caused all sorts of pains. >From older documentation

Re: Need for Swift

>> For context: I work on a database library[1] implemented in C++ that provides exactly such a C API Diving down into C sounds like a reasonable option for a database library. It does not sound good for a specialty app that does construction estimating and accounting. Libraries just show Assembly

Re: Need for Swift

We did put 2 or 3 programmer-years into a Cocoa GUI. Problem is, it appears that it will need 2 or 3 more. There probably won't be enough Mac buyers left in 2 or 3 years to pay for that. I agree that QT, wxWidget and Electron build crappy apps. And some effort will always be required to interfa

Re: Need for Swift

As another developer who procrastinated on converting the GUI for a large application away from Carbon, I have also found this discussion to be highly illuminating. My excuse is that I'm an academic, and while the users of my software appreciate the GUI, the absolute last way I want to spend my

Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 9:40 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > I have found your comments enlightening. So if I understand correctly you > have three choices for a native UI on the Mac. > > 1. Objective-C which would integrate nicely with your C++ business logic > using Objective-

Re: Need for Swift

Swift / C++ inter-op is being worked on. It's important to many (including Apple I would guess)... https://forums.swift.org/t/c-objective-c-interop/9989/2 https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1154974115893149696 On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 09:41, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev < cocoa-dev@l

Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 9:40 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > 2. Another option is Swift but it has zero integration with C++. So this is > really not a choice at all. Swift integrates with C. So you can declare C APIs to your C++ codebase, and call those from Swift. This does m

Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 7:57 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > TurtleSoft has a big investment in C++ source code that's full of > construction business logic. Unfortunately, with the death of Carbon its > future value is in doubt. I have found your comments enlightening.

Re: Need for Swift

Maybe it’s also worth noting that WebKit (the browser engine used by Safari) is written in C++ Safari’s UI is probably written in Obj-C(++) or a mixture of Obj-C(++) and Swift. Jeremy ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do

Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 6:59 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > TurtleSoft has a big investment in C++ source code that's full of > construction business logic. Unfortunately, with the death of Carbon its > future value is in doubt. I know I’ve brought up Objective-C++ to you h

Re: Need for Swift

> > On Oct 15, 2019, at 22:58, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > Nobody > is every going to write a full CAD, project management or business > accounting app in either Swift or Obj-C. > > TurtleSoft has a big investment in C++ source code that's full of > construction business

Re: Need for Swift

This discussion about Swift vs Objective-C is interesting, but I think it omits something important. Both those languages only build apps for Apple products. It's not such a big deal for iOS. iPhones are dominant enough that people can write just for that. Phone/pad apps are also relatively small,

Re: Need for Swift

I always felt that swift was introduced to allow the development ecosystem to grow and intended to be a language that eliminated some of the squishiness of Objective-C. My opinion is that this was intended to make Apple’s job of code review and approval easier and more concrete (business case?)

Re: Need for Swift

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:37 AM, Quincey Morris via Cocoa-dev > mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote: > > The really important thing about using Swift is that you *have to* learn to > change the way you think about dealing with nil values. And it’s a fucking cumbersome pain in the ass. Sim