There are 7 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: And/or
From: Daniel Nielsen
1b. Re: And/or
From: John Q
1c. Re: And/or
From: R A Brown
1d. Re: And/or
From: Adam Walker
2a. The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
From: David Peterson
2b. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
From: Lee
3. CHAT: German film over Hildegard von Bingen
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Messages
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1a. Re: And/or
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:58 pm ((PDT))
Out of context, here is what I would hear colloquially in the following
cases..
"Cut the red or blue wires" =
"Cut red or blue wires" =
"Cut all red wires and cut all blue wires (but not those that are both red
and blue)"
"Cut the red or the blue wires" =
"Cut all of the red wires or cut all of the blue wires"
"Cut red and blue wires" spoken sounds like
"Cut all red-and-blue wires" XOR "Cut all red wires and cut all blue wires"
At least in this case, to speak in the colloquial, "or" is preferred,
because it offers less confusion. That's not to say it is "correct"; it of
course sounds better to use expressions like "both" or "whether the case is
A or B". But this would at least be one argument in favor of this notion. Of
course, in cases without the possibility of a combined modifier, it is not
generally an issue: eg, "Add the milk or creme".
Messages in this topic (15)
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1b. Re: And/or
Posted by: "John Q" jquijad...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:54 pm ((PDT))
Ithkuil uses the following affixes to deal with the various ins and outs of
adjunctive and/or contrastive coordination as well as quasi-coordinative
concepts:
-iw/-iy in conjunction with / combined with / including X
-ew/-ey and / also / additionally/ furthermore/ moreover/ whats more
-äw/-äy . . . and so forth / and so on / and all that/ and whatever
else
-öw/-öy and at the same time / and simultaneously
-(a)w/-(a)y and [all in a series, e.g., I bought apples, (and) pears and
grapes.]
-üw/-üy or [potentially inclusive] = and/or = A or B or both A and B
-ïw/ïy either . . . or [exclusive or] / or else
-ow/-oy . . . or something else / or whatever / or whatever else
-uw/-uy either . . . or [exclusive or in a series]
-irr still / nevertheless / however (despite seemingly
inherent conflict or contradiction)
-err besides / not just . . . but also / in addition to X
also
-ärr even / or even /
still [e.g., thicker still]
-örr or [= otherwise]
-arr as opposed to / but not
-ürr but [qualifying]
-ïrr however / on the other hand (simple difference in
expected outcome, no inherent conflict)
-orr but (rather) [= substitute]
-urr just in case / should the need arise
The second affix above is used with the Focus category to disambiguate a
sentence like "Our team defeated their team, too" [i.e., is our team on a
winning streak or is their team on a losing streak?]
--John Q.
Messages in this topic (15)
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1c. Re: And/or
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 12:02 am ((PDT))
Alex Fink wrote:
[snip]
>
> Anyway, there are no uncontroversial examples of natlangs
> with the ior vs. xor distinction. Latin _aut_ vs. _vel_
> is often cited: _aut_ is supposed to be exclusive, _vel_
> inclusive; but I think better the story that goes _A aut
> B_ means "A or B, it matters which", and _A vel B_ means
> "A or B, it doesn't matter which", where the "or" in the
> glosses doesn't care about clusivity.
That's about it, I think - at least as regards the general
trend.
Under _aut_, the Lewis & Short dictionary says:
"In general it puts in the place of a previous assertion
another, objectively and absolutely antithetical to it,
while _vel_ indicates that the contrast rests upon
subjective opinion or choice, i.e. _aut_ is objective, _vel_
subjective, or _aut_ excludes one term, _vel_ makes the two
indifferent."
OK - _aut_ excludes one term, but then so, normally, does
_vel_; but in the case of _vel_ I'm indifferent as to the
choice. If I'm going to buy a burger or a hot dog for
myself and friend and there's plenty each available (and I
ask him in Latin!0, I'd probably use _vel_. But if the only
two remaining items were one burger and one hot dog, where
in English I'd say "Do you want the burger or the hot dog?"
then the choice has obvious implications for me as well and
I'd use _aut_.
Under _vel_, Lewis and Short say:
".. disjunctive conjunction to introduce an alternative or
preference, or as not affecting the principal assertion."
_vel_ is indeed derived from the root vel- ~ vol- that we
find in the verb _volo, velle, volui_ "to wish, want". i.e.
_vel_ had the idea "what you will".
BUT - things are never that simple in a natlang ;)
In treating the various different uses of _vel_, Lewis and
Short give examples where _vel_ is used with the *same use*
as _aut_ above; they also give examples where the
disjunctive meaning is very weak and the conjunction
practically means "and". Maybe that's the source of the
assertion that _vel_ = IOR. It doesn't. It covers a range
of meanings, mainly XOR, in fact, where the choice is not so
important (but sometimes it is) to just plain AND.
Lewis and Short give examples where _either....or_ is
expressed by _aut....vel_ and others where it is _vel ....
aut_ :)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: And/or
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:56 am ((PDT))
In Carrajina, _aut_ lives on as _jud_ maening _or_, while _vel_ countinues
as _veu_ meaning _eventhough_, _though_, _thus_, _yet_.
Adam
On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 12:03 AM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> Alex Fink wrote:
> [snip]
>
>
>> Anyway, there are no uncontroversial examples of natlangs
>> with the ior vs. xor distinction. Latin _aut_ vs. _vel_
>> is often cited: _aut_ is supposed to be exclusive, _vel_
>> inclusive; but I think better the story that goes _A aut B_ means "A or B,
>> it matters which", and _A vel B_ means
>> "A or B, it doesn't matter which", where the "or" in the
>> glosses doesn't care about clusivity.
>>
>
> That's about it, I think - at least as regards the general trend.
>
> Under _aut_, the Lewis & Short dictionary says:
> "In general it puts in the place of a previous assertion another,
> objectively and absolutely antithetical to it, while _vel_ indicates that
> the contrast rests upon subjective opinion or choice, i.e. _aut_ is
> objective, _vel_ subjective, or _aut_ excludes one term, _vel_ makes the two
> indifferent."
>
> OK - _aut_ excludes one term, but then so, normally, does _vel_; but in the
> case of _vel_ I'm indifferent as to the choice. If I'm going to buy a
> burger or a hot dog for myself and friend and there's plenty each available
> (and I ask him in Latin!0, I'd probably use _vel_. But if the only two
> remaining items were one burger and one hot dog, where in English I'd say
> "Do you want the burger or the hot dog?" then the choice has obvious
> implications for me as well and I'd use _aut_.
>
> Under _vel_, Lewis and Short say:
> ".. disjunctive conjunction to introduce an alternative or preference, or
> as not affecting the principal assertion."
>
> _vel_ is indeed derived from the root vel- ~ vol- that we find in the verb
> _volo, velle, volui_ "to wish, want". i.e. _vel_ had the idea "what you
> will".
>
> BUT - things are never that simple in a natlang ;)
>
> In treating the various different uses of _vel_, Lewis and Short give
> examples where _vel_ is used with the *same use* as _aut_ above; they also
> give examples where the disjunctive meaning is very weak and the conjunction
> practically means "and". Maybe that's the source of the assertion that _vel_
> = IOR. It doesn't. It covers a range of meanings, mainly XOR, in fact,
> where the choice is not so important (but sometimes it is) to just plain
> AND.
>
> Lewis and Short give examples where _either....or_ is expressed by
> _aut....vel_ and others where it is _vel .... aut_ :)
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> will always interfere with language".
>
Messages in this topic (15)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:09 am ((PDT))
The winner of the 2010 Smiley Award is ámman îar.
Before I post any links, let me give some background. ámman
îar (uncapitalized by preference, I believe) is the masterwork
of David Bell, a conlanger who, in the tradition of Tolkien, worked
from a proto-language to create languages to populate the land
of ámman, his creation. He was a member of the Conlang List
for many years in the early days of the list, and had a website with
a large reference grammar detailing amman iar, among other
things. It was hosted at graywizard.net.
A couple years ago, I noticed that graywizard.net had lapsed.
Its pages were still available via archive.org, but as David Bell
was advanced in age, I wondered if he had taken ill, or worse.
A whois search on graywizard.net turned up a telephone number
and an address. I tried the telephone number, but it had been
disconnected. I also sent a letter to the address using LCS
letterhead, but I never heard anything from it or its intended
recipient after sending it.
On a hunch, I went back to the archived version of David's personal
page to see if any of his family members might have some sort
of web presence (this is something I'd tried in the past without
success). This is when I noticed, for the first time (how I missed it
earlier, I have no idea), a mention of David's brother, John Bell,
who was a dj at Z100, a New York radio station. I figured someone
that famous would have to have something on the web.
A search on John Bell turned up something rather interesting. He
was no longer listed as a dj at Z100, but there were a few news
stories written about him--and recently. Apparently, he was fired
without warning and without good reason one day after nearly thirty
years of service. Once word of this had spread, outraged fans began
flooding the station with e-mails and phone calls, and even set up a
Facebook page in protest:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/pages/Bring-John-Bell-back-to-z100-or-we-boycott/108116159214086?ref=ts
After e-mailing the author of the news articles, I chanced upon
John Bell's own Facebook page. I sent him a message via Facebook,
letting him know I was looking for his brother, and about a week ago,
I got the bad news: David Bell had died a few years back.
Long-tenured members here will remember David and ámman îar.
He was a good conlanger, and ámman îar is one of the best and
most detailed artlangs I've ever seen described on the web. I wish
I could have given this award, prestigious though it isn't, to ámman
îar while he was still alive, but things don't always turn out the way
we plan. ámman îar is well-deserving of the Smiley, and I invite you
to read my full write-up here:
http://dedalvs.com/smileys/2010.html
In addition, I've been working over the past few days to restore
David's original site. I've taken what I can find from archive.org
and moved it to a new location:
graywizard.conlang.org
I'm not finished yet (there are a lot of files to transfer, and some
editing is required to make sure everything shows up), but I have
(I'm almost certain) finished restoring all his conlang pages. His
reference grammar for ámman îar, though unfinished, was a great
example of how to present a conlang on the web, and I think it's
important that the effort represented by his website be preserved
so that future conlangers can benefit by his example and learn
about ámman îar.
Though it's come too late, congratulations to David, and may he
rest in peace.
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:37 am ((PDT))
--- On Wed, 9/1/10, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com>
Subject: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 7:02 AM
The winner of the 2010 Smiley Award is ámman îar.
Before I post any links, let me give some background...
Awesome! Thank you for restoring his web site.
Lee
Messages in this topic (2)
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3. CHAT: German film over Hildegard von Bingen
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 6:53 am ((PDT))
Hi everyone,
I discovered today that a German film over the life of Hildegard von Bingen,
entitled "Vision - Aus dem Leben der Hildegard von Bingen" (
http://www.vision-derfilm.de/) is going tomorrow in première in the
Netherlands. I hadn't heard of this film before, so I was wondering if
anyone on this list knew about it. It's been produced in 2009, so it's a
very recent film.
For those wondering why I'm posting this here, Hildegard von Bingen is
basically the earliest conlanger on record, her Lingua Ignota (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_Ignota) being described by her in a work
of which two manuscripts survive to this day. Unlike people "speaking in
tongues", it seems her Lingua Ignota was a conscious effort to create a
language (although the grammar seems to be a partial relex of Latin) which
is why she is considered a true conlanger.
So, I was wondering whether someone else had heard about the movie, possibly
seen it, and whether this aspect of her life was mentioned in it.
Cheers,
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (1)
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