There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
From: Roger Mills
1.2. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
From: Roger Mills
1.3. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
From: Andreas Johansson
1.4. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
From: Lars Finsen
1.5. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
From: René Uittenbogaard
2a. Re: Celtic & other myths
From: R A Brown
2b. Re: Celtic & other myths
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2c. Re: Celtic & other myths
From: Andreas Johansson
2d. Re: Celtic & other myths
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2e. Re: Celtic & other myths
From: R A Brown
3. Four-tone Latin (was: Sino-Romance in the LLL?)
From: Anthony Miles
4. Na'gifi Fasu'xa Phonotactics
From: Anthony Miles
5a. Re: Looking for Academic Conlangers
From: Israel Noletto
6.1. Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop
From: Peter Bleackley
7a. Re: Young conlanger/cellist on NPR's From The Top
From: Donald Boozer
Messages
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1.1. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:07 am ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 9/26/10, kechpaja <kechp...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > (The final g also is used only
> in the writing - for what purpose is beyond me,
> embellishment I suppose.
>
> I will throw forth the opinion that the final -g is there
> purely for etymological reasons—in German, the suffix -ig
> is used to form adjectives. It's pronounced /IC/ in the
> standard dialect, which isn't too far from /i/.
>
IIRC, Dutch also has -ig on adjectives, and I recall reading that the /g/ is
often not pronounced.
Messages in this topic (27)
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1.2. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:14 am ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 9/26/10, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And a question more for the conlang world, Flipping through
> my book, I find there are two kinds of yes in Norwegian,
> "ja" and "jo." "Ja" is like the yes we're all familiar with
> in English, while "jo" is an affirmative answer to a
> question asked using a negative, and is also used as a
> slightly doubtful "yes."
>
(snip)
> So, the question is, does anyone do this with "yes" in
> their conlang(s)? Or perhaps something similar with "no"?
>
Not quite comparable, but Kash has forms for "ordinary" yes/no, along with
forms for "intensive" yes/no
hayi 'yes', nakayi 'absolutely, yes indeed' etc. (/naN+xayi/
tayi 'no', nandayi 'absolutely/certainly not, no way' etc. (/naN+tayi/
the "-y-" is just an orthographic requirement; both words are ordinarily
monosyllablis [xaI), taI)] in speech; they can be bisyllabic in poetry if
necessary for the meter.
Messages in this topic (27)
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1.3. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" andre...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:43 am ((PDT))
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no> wrote:
[snip]
> I'm pretty sure the adjectival ending -ig is borrowed from the Low German
> area or its surroundings.
The Swedish _-ig_ (with usually but not invariably silent 'g')
certainly is from Low German. The native equivalent _-og_ is almost
wholly extinct (the standard example is _idog_, but it's not a word I
ever use other than when exemplifying this ending).
--
Andreas Johansson
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
Messages in this topic (27)
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1.4. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:03 am ((PDT))
Den 26. sep. 2010 kl. 18.42 skreiv Andreas Johansson:
> The Swedish _-ig_ (with usually but not invariably silent 'g')
> certainly is from Low German. The native equivalent _-og_ is almost
> wholly extinct (the standard example is _idog_, but it's not a word I
> ever use other than when exemplifying this ending).
We have a similar native -ug ending in Norwegian. It was used
regularly in some variants of early Nynorsk, in words like _dristug_,
for example. But today the Low Germans have conquered us, too.
I reckon the early Nynorsk practice must have been based on some
dialect or other, spoken 150 years ago. The ON -ugr ending should
regularly become -ug in Norwegian (and -og in Danish and Swedish) But
I have never heard any such form in spoken Norwegian in my life.
LEF
Messages in this topic (27)
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1.5. Re: norsk (was Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop)
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" ruitt...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:50 pm ((PDT))
2010/9/26 Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com>:
> --- On Sun, 9/26/10, kechpaja <kechp...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I will throw forth the opinion that the final -g is there
>> purely for etymological reasons—in German, the suffix -ig
>> is used to form adjectives. It's pronounced /IC/ in the
>> standard dialect, which isn't too far from /i/.
>>
> IIRC, Dutch also has -ig on adjectives, and I recall reading that the /g/ is
> often not pronounced.
>
I wouldn't know of any example in Dutch in which the |g| is not
pronounced. Normally the
suffix is pronounced /@X/, as in "machtig" /'m...@x/ (mighty).
René
Messages in this topic (27)
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2a. Re: Celtic & other myths
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:05 pm ((PDT))
On 26/09/2010 13:29, Deiniol Jones
Jörg:
>>>> Indeed, indeed! There is not a shred of evidence for the
>>>> existence of any of the Insular Celtic peculiarities
>>>> (VSO word order, initial mutations, profusion of spirants
>>>> from the lenition of stops, etc.) in Gaulish, Lepontic
>>>> or Celtiberian! These languages are much more similar to
>>>> Latin in their structure than they are to Insular
>>>> Celtic.
Me:
>>> Absolutely - yet if a conlang occurs that purports to be a
>>> survival of a Continental Celtic language, what's the
>>> betting it will have most, if not all, of these features!
Jörg:
>> The only Continental Celtic conlang I am aware of is Dan
>> Jones's
>> Arvorec, and it *does* have all those features. Sigh.
Deiniol:
> Well, it's supposed to! :D Arvorec came about in
response to
> the elimination of the Brythonic languages in Ill Bethisad,
> and so was *supposed* to be a fairly typical Insular-style
> language. Interestingly, Ranko Matasovic makes a case that
> all these typically "Celtic" features present in the modern
> Insular languages are the result of intensive language
> contact during the late Dark Ages:
Yes, I've always thought, at least in case of the Brythonic
languages, that these changes dis not occur until after the
Roman period.
But I can go along with a Celtic language on the fringe, as
it were, of Britain exhibiting many, if not all, of these
features. What I was thinking of was some Celti-conlang in,
say southern Gaul, north-west Spain, or maybe along the
Danube or even a survival in some remote part of Anatolia of
the ancient Galatian language.
I can just imagine someone thinking: "What if Galatian had
continued to spoken? It was a Celtic language, so my
neo-Galatian will have to have initial consonant mutations etc."
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (26)
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2b. Re: Celtic & other myths
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:49 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:07:18 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
> On 26/09/2010 13:29, Deiniol Jones
>
> [...]
>
> > Well, it's supposed to! :D Arvorec came about in
> response to
> > the elimination of the Brythonic languages in Ill Bethisad,
> > and so was *supposed* to be a fairly typical Insular-style
> > language. Interestingly, Ranko Matasovic makes a case that
> > all these typically "Celtic" features present in the modern
> > Insular languages are the result of intensive language
> > contact during the late Dark Ages:
>
> Yes, I've always thought, at least in case of the Brythonic
> languages, that these changes dis not occur until after the
> Roman period.
How much do we know about Roman-era British? Wikipedia cites
a curse tablet found at Bath, and gives two utterly different
translations; it doesn't seem to be VSO nor show any initial
mutations. Also, Tacitus said that British differed little
from Gaulish. Perhaps the substratum hypothesis I used in my
Albic project is indeed utterly groundless. (That of course
neither means that Old Albic can't be VSO - it doesn't have
initial mutations anyway - nor that the modern Albic languages
cannot have initial mutations!)
> But I can go along with a Celtic language on the fringe, as
> it were, of Britain exhibiting many, if not all, of these
> features.
Yes. Arvorec, spoken on the Channel Islands, is close enough
to Britain to be drawn into the linguistic area which, in Ill
Bethisad, is represented by Brithenig, Kerno, Breathanach and
Irish. (Also, it is a well-done and admirable conlang.)
> What I was thinking of was some Celti-conlang in,
> say southern Gaul, north-west Spain, or maybe along the
> Danube or even a survival in some remote part of Anatolia of
> the ancient Galatian language.
For such a conlang, I would indeed not expect to find any of
the "Insular Celtic" features.
> I can just imagine someone thinking: "What if Galatian had
> continued to spoken? It was a Celtic language, so my
> neo-Galatian will have to have initial consonant mutations etc."
Neo-Galatian would be a project for the League of Lost Languages,
but *please* without initial mutations! ;)
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (26)
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2c. Re: Celtic & other myths
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" andre...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:00 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de> wrote:
>
[snip]
> Neo-Galatian would be a project for the League of Lost Languages,
> but *please* without initial mutations! ;)
Is it known how long real-world Galatian survived? I presume it must
have become heavily influenced by Greek as time went by.
--
Andreas Johansson
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
Messages in this topic (26)
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2d. Re: Celtic & other myths
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:21 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:59:04 +0200, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier<joerg_rhieme...@web.de>
> wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> > Neo-Galatian would be a project for the League of Lost Languages,
> > but *please* without initial mutations! ;)
>
> Is it known how long real-world Galatian survived? I presume it must
> have become heavily influenced by Greek as time went by.
Wikipedia says Galatian survived to the 4th century AD. Certainly, the
language would indeed be heavily influenced by Greek, and written in the
Greek alphabet or a derivative thereof.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (26)
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2e. Re: Celtic & other myths
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:10 am ((PDT))
On 26/09/2010 21:20, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
[snip]
>
> Wikipedia says Galatian survived to the 4th century AD.
> Certainly, the language would indeed be heavily
> influenced by Greek, and written in the Greek alphabet or
> a derivative thereof.
In the thesis I wrote for the M.Litt degree way back in
1984, I state that it survived till at least the early 5th
century. Certainly St Jerome 347 to 420 AD) records in his
commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (c. 387) that the
Galatians of Ancyra (Ankara) were speaking a language
similar to that of the Treveri of Trier in what is now the
German Rhineland.
Someone at least thinks some Galatians words still survive
in modern Turkish; see:
http://www.galloturca.com/galatians_files/galatianwords.htm
If this is correct, then the language would have survived
far later than is commonly thought and still be spoken when
Turkic peoples began migrating in Asia Minor in the 11th
cent AD.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (26)
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3. Four-tone Latin (was: Sino-Romance in the LLL?)
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:04 pm ((PDT))
Perhaps I became hung-up on the geographical Sino- of "Sino-Romance
languages". Would West Africa be a better place for a tonal Romance
language? It's proximate to the Empire and has multiple tribal groups. Many of
the languages are tonal, and some of them have the analytical structure
underlying some of the modern Romance languages. The intermarriage of
Romans and local women would render the Romance connection invisible to
19th-century European scholars. Perhaps the Romance connection was
proposed before the collapse of colonial rule, and then suppressed during post-
colonial African nationalism.
Any thoughts?
Messages in this topic (1)
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4. Na'gifi Fasu'xa Phonotactics
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:45 pm ((PDT))
I'm still working on entering Na'gifi Fasu'xa into Lexique Pro (so far, it's
wonderful), but I've also worked a simple,, yet not too simple phonotactic
scheme for Na'gifi Fasu'xa.
N = mng
C = any consonant
[N] = velar nasal
m > N/_C
[kaamnu] > [ka:nnu]
n > l/_C
[tuansi] > [twalsi]
g [N] > ?/_C
[tiaNsi] > [tja?si]
[+pls -vc] > [+vc]/_[+nas +vc]
[tn] > [dn]
[+frc -vc] > [+vc]/_[+nas +vc]
[sn] > [zn]
a + i > aj
[tunais] > [tunajs]
a + u > aw
[paNaus] > [paNaws]
i + a > ja
[tiaNxa] > [tja?xa]
i + u > ju
[Nafius] > [Nafius]
u + a > wa
[kuaNti] > [kwa?ti]
u + i > wi
[iskuim] > [iskwim]
Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Looking for Academic Conlangers
Posted by: "Israel Noletto" israelnole...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:53 pm ((PDT))
Hi,
Well, I teach English and Spanish at a Federal Institute of education and have
recently published a book on conlanging besides some articles and lectures.
Feel free to email me off-list if you like ( israelnole...@ifpi.edu.br )
cheers,
Israel Noletto
Messages in this topic (4)
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6.1. Re: As the Actress Said to the Bishop
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:04 am ((PDT))
staving Lars Finsen:
> Den 24. sep. 2010 kl. 15.33 skrev p...@phillipdriscoll.com:
>>
>> Yep.
>> First person: "I think the task may be difficult, but I'll try to do it."
>>
>> Second person, innocently: "It's so hard. Do you think you can keep it
>> up?"
>>
>> First person: "That's what she said!"
>
> Odd. Is there some popular culture origin to this usage?
>
> And the British one, too?
>
"As the actress said to the bishop" is a reference to the racy
reputation that actresses enjoyed in former times.
In Khangaþyagon I think you'd say
analekdahikhar pohar/rikar kholo enban
anal-ek- dah-i-kh-ar poh- ar/rik-ar khol-o en- ban
joy- adj-be- 3-ft-pl woman-pl/man-pl hear-inf thing-that
Women/men* will rejoice to hear it.
(*delete as inapropriate)
Pete
Messages in this topic (27)
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7a. Re: Young conlanger/cellist on NPR's From The Top
Posted by: "Donald Boozer" donaldboo...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:29 am ((PDT))
I've also posted the link to the show on the LCS's Twitter feed @FiatLingua.
The
cellist/conlanger is at 51:00 on the show's audio.
Don
http://library.conlang.org
Twitter: @FiatLingua
Messages in this topic (4)
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