There are 18 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: what is the meaning of "vs" in music?
From: Kurt Weber
2. 30-Day Conlang: day 23
From: Gary Shannon
3a. Font/word-processing question
From: Calculator Ftvb
3b. Re: Font/word-processing question
From: Patrick Michael Niedzielski
3c. Re: Font/word-processing question
From: Rebecca Bettencourt
3d. Re: Font/word-processing question
From: MorphemeAddict
3e. Persian
From: Michael D Martin
3f. Re: Font/word-processing question
From: Daniel Nielsen
3g. Re: Font/word-processing question
From: Garth Wallace
3h. Re: Persian
From: Nika Mirovak
3i. Re: Persian
From: Shair A
3j. Re: Font/word-processing question
From: Alex Fink
4a. Re: Diversity in conlang families
From: Roman Rausch
5. Verbs-of-motion-centric language
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
6a. phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless
From: Matthew Boutilier
6b. Re: phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
6c. Re: phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless
From: Matthew Boutilier
6d. Re: phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless
From: Philip Newton
Messages
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1a. Re: what is the meaning of "vs" in music?
Posted by: "Kurt Weber" k...@armory.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:47 am ((PST))
On 11/22/2010 20:25, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> I was wondering what the "vs" means when used for the artists of a song.
> For example: "Globe vs. Push-Dreams from Above" or "Darude vs. Paul
> Okenfold-Some Techno Song"
>
> Does it simply mean "versus" as in an attempt to pit the artists against
> each other, or does it mean to try and combine both their styles, or what?
>
> I understand this isn't entirely conlang-related but I couldn't figure this
> out using either Wikipedia or Google (I feel adrift!). Perhaps that's
> because everyone else knows but me...
>
> Rescue, anyone?
>
>
Am I the only one who saw the subject and initially thought, "volti subito"?
Kurt Weber
Messages in this topic (6)
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2. 30-Day Conlang: day 23
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:50 am ((PST))
Day 23
The first 60 McGuffey sentences are now translated.
The dictionary now contains 466 Txtana words and 1101 English words.
http://fiziwig.com/conlang/txtana_mcguffey.html
The grammar is becoming very stable. Soon I will be able to start
describing it formally.
The same for the phonology. I am to the point where I can start
listening to myself speak the language so I can document the
phonology.
--gary
Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Font/word-processing question
Posted by: "Calculator Ftvb" i...@futuramerlin.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:06 pm ((PST))
Hello ! I've created a conlang that is read right-to-left, bottom-to-top,
composed of glyphs that consist of two characters, joined vertically, both
of which can take one of several forms based on the context (but the forms
are based on a consistent set of rules, so would be able to be automatically
implemented by a computer). How would I go about creating a font for that
and getting it to work in a word-processing program? (I'm pretty new to font
creation.) Thanks!
—Calculator Ftvb
Messages in this topic (10)
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3b. Re: Font/word-processing question
Posted by: "Patrick Michael Niedzielski" patrickniedziel...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:55 pm ((PST))
On mar, 2010-11-23 at 17:02 -0500, Calculator Ftvb wrote:
> Hello ! I've created a conlang that is read right-to-left, bottom-to-top,
> composed of glyphs that consist of two characters, joined vertically, both
> of which can take one of several forms based on the context (but the forms
> are based on a consistent set of rules, so would be able to be automatically
> implemented by a computer). How would I go about creating a font for that
> and getting it to work in a word-processing program? (I'm pretty new to font
> creation.) Thanks!
>
> —Calculator Ftvb
Seems really complicated...not something that many word processors can
handle. I can tell you that OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice would not even
support the direction of your text! (I tried once to type Vulcan, and
that didn't go over well.) I'm not sure about Word, but I also think it
won't like bottom to top, right to left.
I don't know how much help that will be to you.
Cheers,
Patrick
--
Humm and Strumm <http://hummstrumm.blogspot.com/>, a Free Software 3D
adventure game for both Windows and *NIX.
freeSoftwareHacker(); <http://freesoftwarehacker.blogspot.com/>, a blog
about Free Software, music, and law.
Messages in this topic (10)
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3c. Re: Font/word-processing question
Posted by: "Rebecca Bettencourt" beckie...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:39 pm ((PST))
Right-to-left text is possible, but only with the areas of Unicode
that Unicode has designated as right-to-left. That would mean abusing
the code points used for things like Hebrew -- there aren't enough of
them for what you want to do, and you're just leaving the door open
for all kinds of problems. You can't do right-to-left with the Private
Use Area, AFAIK. And I don't think you could do bottom-to-top at all.
Composing the characters is possible, though, just a lot of work.
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Patrick Michael Niedzielski
<patrickniedziel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On mar, 2010-11-23 at 17:02 -0500, Calculator Ftvb wrote:
>> Hello ! I've created a conlang that is read right-to-left, bottom-to-top,
>> composed of glyphs that consist of two characters, joined vertically, both
>> of which can take one of several forms based on the context (but the forms
>> are based on a consistent set of rules, so would be able to be automatically
>> implemented by a computer). How would I go about creating a font for that
>> and getting it to work in a word-processing program? (I'm pretty new to font
>> creation.) Thanks!
>>
>> �Calculator Ftvb
>
> Seems really complicated...not something that many word processors can
> handle. �I can tell you that OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice would not even
> support the direction of your text! �(I tried once to type Vulcan, and
> that didn't go over well.) �I'm not sure about Word, but I also think it
> won't like bottom to top, right to left.
>
> I don't know how much help that will be to you.
>
> Cheers,
> Patrick
>
> --
> Humm and Strumm <http://hummstrumm.blogspot.com/>, a Free Software 3D
> adventure game for both Windows and *NIX.
>
> freeSoftwareHacker(); <http://freesoftwarehacker.blogspot.com/>, a blog
> about Free Software, music, and law.
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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3d. Re: Font/word-processing question
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:48 pm ((PST))
Write it left to right and top to bottom, and then turn it upside down.
stevo
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Calculator Ftvb <i...@futuramerlin.com>wrote:
> Hello ! I've created a conlang that is read right-to-left, bottom-to-top,
> composed of glyphs that consist of two characters, joined vertically, both
> of which can take one of several forms based on the context (but the forms
> are based on a consistent set of rules, so would be able to be
> automatically
> implemented by a computer). How would I go about creating a font for that
> and getting it to work in a word-processing program? (I'm pretty new to
> font
> creation.) Thanks!
>
> —Calculator Ftvb
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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3e. Persian
Posted by: "Michael D Martin" masonhe...@verizon.net
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:56 pm ((PST))
Hello everyone,
I've been with the Conlang list for many years but rarely post.
I was wondering if any of you have some links to audio samples of modern
Persian being spoken? And any good links to help learn Persian? Maybe even some
recommendations for classes in Southern California? I live about an hour north
of San Diego. I know in-person learning would be best.
I'm hoping to improve my conlanging ability by learning another language. The
only foreign language experience I've had is learning Spanish in high school,
and unfortunately I've forgotten most of that.
Thanks for the help.
... ..... ....... ... ..... ....... ... ..... .......
Michael D. Martin, Master Mason
S. W. Hackett Lodge #574
F&AM of California
Messages in this topic (10)
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3f. Re: Font/word-processing question
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:09 pm ((PST))
Calc, I've had a project in mind for doing something that would support this
(and cursive). It would be a custom program. Only problem is, it would
require longer intervals of time to write than I'll have available, unless a
free sitter materializes out of thin air..
Dan N
Messages in this topic (10)
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3g. Re: Font/word-processing question
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:25 pm ((PST))
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Rebecca Bettencourt
<beckie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right-to-left text is possible, but only with the areas of Unicode
> that Unicode has designated as right-to-left. That would mean abusing
> the code points used for things like Hebrew -- there aren't enough of
> them for what you want to do, and you're just leaving the door open
> for all kinds of problems. You can't do right-to-left with the Private
> Use Area, AFAIK. And I don't think you could do bottom-to-top at all.
It won't *automatically* do RTL for anything in the PUA, but IIRC
there are explicit direction switching control characters that you
could probably use.
Nothing in Unicode deals with vertical direction, though. Even HTML
has a hard time with Japanese vertical text, and I don't think
*anything* is equipped to handle bottom-to-top text.
Messages in this topic (10)
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3h. Re: Persian
Posted by: "Nika Mirovak" nikamiro...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:19 pm ((PST))
Look up Farsi or Persian on YouTube. That should give you a lot of
audio samples.
Nika
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Michael D Martin
<masonhe...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I've been with the Conlang list for many years but rarely post.
>
> I was wondering if any of you have some links to audio samples of modern
> Persian being spoken? And any good links to help learn Persian? Maybe even
> some recommendations for classes in Southern California? I live about an hour
> north of San Diego. I know in-person learning would be best.
>
> I'm hoping to improve my conlanging ability by learning another language. The
> only foreign language experience I've had is learning Spanish in high school,
> and unfortunately I've forgotten most of that.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> ... ..... ....... ... ..... ....... ... ..... .......
> Michael D. Martin, Master Mason
> S. W. Hackett Lodge #574
> F&AM of California
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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3i. Re: Persian
Posted by: "Shair A" aeetlrcre...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:46 pm ((PST))
Also, for what it's worth, Los Angeles has an immense Persian community, so
you may want to search for opportunities to learn Persian around there.
2010/11/23 Nika Mirovak <nikamiro...@gmail.com>
> Look up Farsi or Persian on YouTube. That should give you a lot of
> audio samples.
>
> Nika
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Michael D Martin
> <masonhe...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I've been with the Conlang list for many years but rarely post.
> >
> > I was wondering if any of you have some links to audio samples of modern
> Persian being spoken? And any good links to help learn Persian? Maybe even
> some recommendations for classes in Southern California? I live about an
> hour north of San Diego. I know in-person learning would be best.
> >
> > I'm hoping to improve my conlanging ability by learning another language.
> The only foreign language experience I've had is learning Spanish in high
> school, and unfortunately I've forgotten most of that.
> >
> > Thanks for the help.
> >
> > ... ..... ....... ... ..... ....... ... ..... .......
> > Michael D. Martin, Master Mason
> > S. W. Hackett Lodge #574
> > F&AM of California
> >
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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3j. Re: Font/word-processing question
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:14 pm ((PST))
Parker suggested, not re this question in particular but re the general
topic, that it would be a good work to make an FAQ / beginner's guide for
making and using fonts for your conlang, covering these points like
directionality and stuff. I don't think there's anything in depth like this
now -- is there? There's Arthaey's thing at
http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html#Computers2, but it's a link dump and
there's more could be said.
If anyone thinks this is a good idea and wants to write such, I propose creating
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang_fonts_FAQ .
(Myself I can't really contribute much, except perhaps by searching and
gathering up things from the archives. I know little about fonts, and I'm
not their greatest devotee.)
Alex
Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: Diversity in conlang families
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:39 pm ((PST))
>How much diversity do you build into your families? Do you just use
>the same morphosyntactic structure and build languages differing only
>in terms of sound changes, such that you could translate between your
>conlangs almost morpheme by morpheme (natlang example: Vedic and
>Avestan)? Or do you throw in as much typological diversity as seems
>plausible to you, such that almost every major language type is
>represented in the family? Or do you follow a middle road between
>these extremes?
Well, you know mine already - high diversity in typology is the exciting
thing about language families, so my aim is to put in as much as is plausible.
Closely related languages are more of a byproduct: Whenever I like several
possible outcomes of a phonological development, they become dialectal
differences. When a lot of those get piled up, the boundary to a new
language is crossed. The same is true for minor grammatical differences.
This is essentially how Tolkien did it, as well. One can often see forms he
was at first undecided about (replacing one with the other back and forth)
later appearing as dialectal.
>I will have different word orders (all three of VSO, SVO and SOV will be found)
Now that you mention it - my languages were all SOV until now, but I also
really like VSO. I'm unsure, however, how changes in word order come about
at all. Is there a recommendable source to read up on it?
Messages in this topic (2)
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5. Verbs-of-motion-centric language
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" la...@quandary.org
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:30 pm ((PST))
I had an idea today for the seed of a new conlang.
On another forum, people comparing interesting foreign-language quirks
mentioned Russian verbs of motion, with which I am familiar, but it
got me thinking about all the peculiarities of verbs of motion and of
the place of location and motion within language:
. verbs of motion in Russian contain additional aspectual information
(a third aspect that other verbs do not have)
. verbs of motion in any given language have the interesting property
of being primarily path-based, manner-based or (rarely) figure-based
like Navajo, a distinction other verbs don't (and can't!) have
. many adpositions are location- or motion- related
. some complicated noun case systems consist largely of location- and
motion- related cases
In short, location and motion are a large and important subset
of the information with which language concerns itself. So I started
thinking, why not have a language where the only true verbs are
locative and motive? Abstract concepts could be largely represented
as states one can metaphorically be in; alternatively, many of them
(like emotions) could be metaphorically in or on the experiencer.
Verbs denoting change could be phrased in terms of motion from one
state to another.
Heck, a lot of things can be paraphrased in terms of going, entering,
exiting, being located at, and even more in terms of putting, taking,
sending etc. Writing? "Put words/thoughts/pen to paper." Cutting?
"Removed pieces with a knife." One of the less likely semantic fields
to be expressed in terms of location might be speech acts, but that
seems to me more because of what we would judge as basic and
fundamental rather than due to any problem phrasing it as "put words
in their ears".
I'm about to be the mother of an infant again, so I don't really plan
to pursue this idea, but it seems an interesting constraint. A rather
different set of basic true verbs from that we occasionally see of "do,
be, have"! Has anybody tried it?
tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda
Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" mbout...@nd.edu
Date: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:40 am ((PST))
for far too long i have been wondering what the difference is between
so-called de-voiced voiced consonants (e.g. [b̥ d̥ ɡ̊ z̥]) and true
voiceless consonants (e.g. [p t k s]). can anyone shed light on this for
me?
matt
Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:57 am ((PST))
On 24 November 2010 09:38, Matthew Boutilier <mbout...@nd.edu> wrote:
> for far too long i have been wondering what the difference is between
> so-called de-voiced voiced consonants (e.g. [b̥ d̥ ɡ̊ z̥]) and true
> voiceless consonants (e.g. [p t k s]). can anyone shed light on this for
> me?
>
> matt
>
Mmm... The short answer is "it depends". The long answer is "it depends on
the language and the situation".
Strictly speaking, if the difference between [p] and [b] was strictly a
matter of voicing, [b̥] in IPA would just be a fancier way to write [p]. In
practice however, depending on the language the distinction between [p] and
[b] may be more than just voicing (it might also be minute differences in
the length of the closure, articulatory energy, or other things that just
can't simply be captured by the IPA). In that context, it may make sense to
talk about [b̥] as distinct from [p]. But it is language-specific.
Most often, devoiced voiced consonants and voiceless consonants are only
contrasted in systems where the main distinction is a fortis vs. lenis one
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortis_and_lenis). [b̥] is then the lenis
version, [p] the fortis one. But it's mostly a convention to note them that
way, and it doesn't mean anything deep about the devoiced diacritic.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" mbout...@nd.edu
Date: Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:10 am ((PST))
interesting! thank you.
> Strictly speaking, if the difference between [p] and [b] was strictly a
> matter of voicing, [b̥] in IPA would just be a fancier way to write [p].
>
ok - this makes sense, although it seems to violate the "phoneticity" of the
IPA, since we have one sound represented with both [b̥] and [p]. with
phonemes, rather than phones (i.e. broad transcription), it makes more
sense: could you say that german "Tag" can be reflected as both /tag/ and
/taɡ̊/ broadly (since the devoicing is allophonic) and as [tak] narrowly?
> In practice however, depending on the language the distinction between [p]
> and
> [b] may be more than just voicing (it might also be minute differences in
> the length of the closure, articulatory energy, or other things that just
> can't simply be captured by the IPA). In that context, it may make sense to
> talk about [b̥] as distinct from [p]. But it is language-specific.
>
> Most often, devoiced voiced consonants and voiceless consonants are only
> contrasted in systems where the main distinction is a fortis vs. lenis one
> (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortis_and_lenis). [b̥] is then the
> lenis
> version, [p] the fortis one. But it's mostly a convention to note them that
> way, and it doesn't mean anything deep about the devoiced diacritic.
aha. i've noticed that in whispering (in english) /b/ does not become
identical to (the unaspirated allophone of) /p/. perhaps this is the
fortis/lenis distinction? at any rate it seems to justify the
phonetic [b̥]-[p] distinction.
thank you!
matt
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:55 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela.cg@
gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 November 2010 09:38, Matthew Boutilier <mbout...@nd.edu> wrote:
>
> > for far too long i have been wondering what the difference is between
> > so-called de-voiced voiced consonants (e.g. [b̥ d̥ ɡ̊ z̥]) and true
> > voiceless consonants (e.g. [p t k s]). can anyone shed light on this for
> > me?
> >
> > matt
> >
>
> Mmm... The short answer is "it depends". The long answer is "it depends on
> the language and the situation".
>
> Strictly speaking, if the difference between [p] and [b] was strictly a
> matter of voicing, [b̥] in IPA would just be a fancier way to write [p]. In
> practice however, depending on the language the distinction between [p] and
> [b] may be more than just voicing (it might also be minute differences in
> the length of the closure, articulatory energy, or other things that just
> can't simply be captured by the IPA). In that context, it may make sense to
> talk about [b̥] as distinct from [p]. But it is language-specific.
>
> Most often, devoiced voiced consonants and voiceless consonants are only
> contrasted in systems where the main distinction is a fortis vs. lenis one
> (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortis_and_lenis). [b̥] is then the
> lenis
> version, [p] the fortis one. But it's mostly a convention to note them that
> way, and it doesn't mean anything deep about the devoiced diacritic.
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:03 am ((PST))
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:08, Matthew Boutilier <mbout...@nd.edu> wrote:
> it seems to violate the "phoneticity" of the IPA
That's already violated if you use diacritic-less [ʌ] to stand for
anything that's not _exactly_ cardinal vowel 14 (such as most
realisations of the English STRUT vowel), or [r] for something that's
not a trill.
In practice, IPA - like SAMPA - is adapted to specific languages;
partly because if you want to be as precise as possible about sounds,
you end up with so many diacritics that it becomes hard to decipher.
So in practice, you always abstract a little bit, and the particular
abstraction you choose informs the symbols and diacritics you'll use.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (4)
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