There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: SOV > SVO
From: Alex Fink
1b. Re: SOV > SVO
From: And Rosta
2a. Transcribing IPA
From: Peter Bleackley
2b. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Alex Fink
2c. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Tony Harris
2d. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Philip Newton
2e. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Herman Miller
2f. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Patrick Dunn
2g. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Michael Everson
2h. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Peter Bleackley
2i. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Peter Bleackley
2j. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Sam Stutter
2k. Re: Transcribing IPA
From: Sam Stutter
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: SOV > SVO
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 5:04 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 11 May 2011 18:45:48 -0400, Amanda Babcock Furrow
<la...@quandary.org> wrote:
>On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 04:45:37PM -0500, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>> In Spanish and, AFAIK, Italian, the old SOV word order survives with
>> pronominal objects.
>>
>> Of course, case endings only survive in Spanish on pronouns, so perhaps
>> that's why. In fact, that seems likely.
>>
>> Why the same thing did not happen with English is hard to say.
>
>Well, we have a similar thing with some seperable verbs:
>
>"Mommy picked up Jordan!" vs.
>"Mommy picked you up!"
Similar, but only half comparable -- there's no *"picked up me", but "picked
Jordan up" is perfectly grammatical (ob-IML proviso). Perhaps for heavy
objects, the separated construction gets awkward enough that one might
consider it ungrammatical, but I'm not sure whether one ought to see that as
some sort of processing-depth rule like the one about central embedding.
Alex
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: SOV > SVO
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 8:30 am ((PDT))
Alex Fink, On 12/05/2011 13:02:
> On Wed, 11 May 2011 18:45:48 -0400, Amanda Babcock Furrow
> <la...@quandary.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 04:45:37PM -0500, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>>> In Spanish and, AFAIK, Italian, the old SOV word order survives with
>>> pronominal objects.
>>>
>>> Of course, case endings only survive in Spanish on pronouns, so perhaps
>>> that's why. In fact, that seems likely.
>>>
>>> Why the same thing did not happen with English is hard to say.
>>
>> Well, we have a similar thing with some seperable verbs:
>>
>> "Mommy picked up Jordan!" vs.
>> "Mommy picked you up!"
>
> Similar, but only half comparable -- there's no *"picked up me", but "picked
> Jordan up" is perfectly grammatical (ob-IML proviso). Perhaps for heavy
> objects, the separated construction gets awkward enough that one might
> consider it ungrammatical, but I'm not sure whether one ought to see that as
> some sort of processing-depth rule like the one about central embedding.
Forgive me if I've missed the point, but I'll pipe up to point out that "picked
up me" is (in most lects) possible when ME is nonclitic/emphatic (e.g. "I
picked up HIM and then HE picked up ME". But when pronouns have clitic forms
they must follow the verb. Hence "pick 'em up" but never *"pick up 'EM".
(It's not quite that simple, because 'direct object' clitics can cliticize to
nonclitic 'indirect object', e.g. "I'll give Alex 'em", and in lects with
possessive aux HAVE, they can cliticize to at least pronominal 'subjects',
"Have you 'em now?")
As far as I can see, English clitic pronouns are in no way relics of English's
SOV past.
--And.
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 8:25 am ((PDT))
I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions
imposed by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of
CXS for the purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work
so far on
http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
Pete
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 9:27 am ((PDT))
On Thu, 12 May 2011 16:21:43 +0100, Peter Bleackley
<peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
>language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions
>imposed by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of
>CXS for the purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work
>so far on
>http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
>
>I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
My own inclination here would be not to reinvent the wheel, and just devise
some sort of mapping from ways characters can be modified in CXS to suffixal
characters in Sphinx notation, along the lines of e.g. suffix "c" for
capitalisation, suffix "b" for a backslash, etc. so [r r\ R R\] map to "r
rb rc rcb".
Alex
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 10:06 am ((PDT))
I'm curious. Wouldn't SAMPA or X_SAMPA be exactly that, an ASCII
transcription of IPA?
On 5/12/11 12:24 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2011 16:21:43 +0100, Peter Bleackley
> <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
>> language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions
>> imposed by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of
>> CXS for the purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work
>> so far on
>> http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
>>
>> I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
> My own inclination here would be not to reinvent the wheel, and just devise
> some sort of mapping from ways characters can be modified in CXS to suffixal
> characters in Sphinx notation, along the lines of e.g. suffix "c" for
> capitalisation, suffix "b" for a backslash, etc. so [r r\ R R\] map to "r
> rb rc rcb".
>
> Alex
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 1:29 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 19:01, Tony Harris <t...@alurhsa.org> wrote:
> I'm curious. Wouldn't SAMPA or X_SAMPA be exactly that, an ASCII
> transcription of IPA?
Those are an ASCII transcription of IPA, but not an alphabetic-only,
case-insentitive transcription of IPA, which is apparently what is
needed.
Digraphs are OK, non-alphabetic characters or letters differing only
in case are not.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@io.com
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 6:01 pm ((PDT))
On 5/12/2011 11:21 AM, Peter Bleackley wrote:
> I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
> language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions
> imposed by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of
> CXS for the purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work
> so far on
> http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
>
>
> I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
>
> Pete
Well, it's good to have some kind of systematic rules like your -R for
retroflex. Are you limited to 2-character symbols? Distinguishing
between the various "r" sounds could be tricky if so. But if you can use
3 characters, you could have e.g. RA for the alveolar approximant [ɹ],
RAR for the retroflex approximant [ɻ], RT for the alveolar tap [ɾ], and
RTR for the retroflex flap [ɽ].
Another convention that you might consider is doubling a letter for
representing small capital letters, e.g. GG for [É¢], HH for [Ê], RR for
[Ê], YY for [Ê].
One thing I don't like much is SD and ZD for the dental fricatives; [θ]
and [ð] are not much like [s] and [z], which are sibilants. I think TH
and DH would be more recognizable. Also for ease of recognition I'd use
SH and ZH for [Ê], [Ê].
How about the glottal stop?
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 6:53 pm ((PDT))
You could approach it differently, by creating digraphs (or better yet,
trigraphs) that represent the location of the symbol in the IPA chart. For
example,
/t/ could be UAS for Unvoiced Alveolar Stop
/c/ could be UPS for Unvoiced Palatal Stop
/m/ could be VBN for Voiced Bilabial Nasal
and so on.
Since voicing in usually binary in most languages, you could reduce this to
digraphs by swapping order for voicing, so
/t/ is AS
/d/ is SA
/k/ is VS
/g/ is SV
it'd be pretty easy to come up with such a scheme for any one language or
maybe a group of related languages. If you wanted it to work with every
single language, I doubt it'll be possible. After all, there are some
sounds that do not even fit neatly on an IPA chart, and every sound could
conceivably be modified with diacritics.
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Herman Miller <hmil...@io.com> wrote:
> On 5/12/2011 11:21 AM, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
>> language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions
>> imposed by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of
>> CXS for the purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work
>> so far on
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
>>
>>
>> I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>
> Well, it's good to have some kind of systematic rules like your -R for
> retroflex. Are you limited to 2-character symbols? Distinguishing between
> the various "r" sounds could be tricky if so. But if you can use 3
> characters, you could have e.g. RA for the alveolar approximant [ɹ], RAR for
> the retroflex approximant [ɻ], RT for the alveolar tap [ɾ], and RTR for the
> retroflex flap [ɽ].
>
> Another convention that you might consider is doubling a letter for
> representing small capital letters, e.g. GG for [É¢], HH for [Ê], RR for
> [Ê],
> YY for [Ê].
>
> One thing I don't like much is SD and ZD for the dental fricatives; [θ] and
> [ð] are not much like [s] and [z], which are sibilants. I think TH and DH
> would be more recognizable. Also for ease of recognition I'd use SH and ZH
> for [Ê], [Ê].
>
> How about the glottal stop?
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Thu May 12, 2011 11:57 pm ((PDT))
On 12 May 2011, at 17:21, Peter Bleackley wrote:
> I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
> language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions imposed
> by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of CXS for the
> purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work so far on
> http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
>
> I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
Use real Unicode characters. That is what they are for.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Fri May 13, 2011 1:37 am ((PDT))
staving Tony Harris:
> I'm curious. Wouldn't SAMPA or X_SAMPA be exactly that, an ASCII
> transcription of IPA?
>
It has to be case insensitive, and non-alphanumeric symbols aren't allowed.
Pete
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2i. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Fri May 13, 2011 1:43 am ((PDT))
On 13/05/2011 01:58, Herman Miller wrote:
> On 5/12/2011 11:21 AM, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>> I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
>> language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions
>> imposed by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of
>> CXS for the purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work
>> so far on
>> http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
>>
>> Pete
>
> Well, it's good to have some kind of systematic rules like your -R for
> retroflex. Are you limited to 2-character symbols? Distinguishing
> between the various "r" sounds could be tricky if so. But if you can use
> 3 characters, you could have e.g. RA for the alveolar approximant [ɹ],
> RAR for the retroflex approximant [ɻ], RT for the alveolar tap [ɾ], and
> RTR for the retroflex flap [ɽ].
>
I'm not restricted to 2 character symbols, and will certainly need
symbols of arbitrary length for some purposes.
> Another convention that you might consider is doubling a letter for
> representing small capital letters, e.g. GG for [É¢], HH for [Ê], RR for
> [Ê], YY for [Ê].
>
> One thing I don't like much is SD and ZD for the dental fricatives; [θ]
> and [ð] are not much like [s] and [z], which are sibilants. I think TH
> and DH would be more recognizable. Also for ease of recognition I'd use
> SH and ZH for [Ê], [Ê].
>
I was thinking of using H as an aspiration diacritic.
> How about the glottal stop?
That's one of many problems I've got. There's nothing obvious to use for
pharyngeals, clicks, or lateral fricatives, and the sheer number of
vowels that are possible.
This was a lot easier with stribography, which was never meant to be useful!
Pete
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2j. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Fri May 13, 2011 1:46 am ((PDT))
I was thinking of something on those lines too. If you allocate each letter in
IPA a two character code (2 is more than enough, 676); it could be randomly
selected, but something intuitive is probably best. Then allocate each
diacritic a two character code: can you use punctuation? Then you'd have;
YV!! for, say /y/ extra high tone
BB.. for /b/ breathy voiced
If you can't use punctuation, then just another two letter code;
YVeh
BBbv
(the change in case is just to make it look neat)
On 13 May 2011, at 02:49, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You could approach it differently, by creating digraphs (or better yet,
> trigraphs) that represent the location of the symbol in the IPA chart. For
> example,
>
> /t/ could be UAS for Unvoiced Alveolar Stop
> /c/ could be UPS for Unvoiced Palatal Stop
> /m/ could be VBN for Voiced Bilabial Nasal
>
> and so on.
>
> Since voicing in usually binary in most languages, you could reduce this to
> digraphs by swapping order for voicing, so
>
> /t/ is AS
> /d/ is SA
> /k/ is VS
> /g/ is SV
>
> it'd be pretty easy to come up with such a scheme for any one language or
> maybe a group of related languages. If you wanted it to work with every
> single language, I doubt it'll be possible. After all, there are some
> sounds that do not even fit neatly on an IPA chart, and every sound could
> conceivably be modified with diacritics.
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Herman Miller <hmil...@io.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/12/2011 11:21 AM, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>>
>>> I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
>>> language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions
>>> imposed by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of
>>> CXS for the purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work
>>> so far on
>>>
>>> http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>
>> Well, it's good to have some kind of systematic rules like your -R for
>> retroflex. Are you limited to 2-character symbols? Distinguishing between
>> the various "r" sounds could be tricky if so. But if you can use 3
>> characters, you could have e.g. RA for the alveolar approximant [ɹ], RAR for
>> the retroflex approximant [ɻ], RT for the alveolar tap [ɾ], and RTR for the
>> retroflex flap [ɽ].
>>
>> Another convention that you might consider is doubling a letter for
>> representing small capital letters, e.g. GG for [É¢], HH for [Ê], RR for
>> [Ê],
>> YY for [Ê].
>>
>> One thing I don't like much is SD and ZD for the dental fricatives; [θ] and
>> [ð] are not much like [s] and [z], which are sibilants. I think TH and DH
>> would be more recognizable. Also for ease of recognition I'd use SH and ZH
>> for [Ê], [Ê].
>>
>> How about the glottal stop?
>>
>
>
>
> --
> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2k. Re: Transcribing IPA
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Fri May 13, 2011 1:52 am ((PDT))
I forgot to say, blank fields would be something like xx:
SHxx
On 13 May 2011, at 09:46, Sam Stutter <sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk>
wrote:
> I was thinking of something on those lines too. If you allocate each letter
> in IPA a two character code (2 is more than enough, 676); it could be
> randomly selected, but something intuitive is probably best. Then allocate
> each diacritic a two character code: can you use punctuation? Then you'd have;
>
> YV!! for, say /y/ extra high tone
> BB.. for /b/ breathy voiced
>
> If you can't use punctuation, then just another two letter code;
>
> YVeh
> BBbv
>
> (the change in case is just to make it look neat)
>
> On 13 May 2011, at 02:49, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You could approach it differently, by creating digraphs (or better yet,
>> trigraphs) that represent the location of the symbol in the IPA chart. For
>> example,
>>
>> /t/ could be UAS for Unvoiced Alveolar Stop
>> /c/ could be UPS for Unvoiced Palatal Stop
>> /m/ could be VBN for Voiced Bilabial Nasal
>>
>> and so on.
>>
>> Since voicing in usually binary in most languages, you could reduce this to
>> digraphs by swapping order for voicing, so
>>
>> /t/ is AS
>> /d/ is SA
>> /k/ is VS
>> /g/ is SV
>>
>> it'd be pretty easy to come up with such a scheme for any one language or
>> maybe a group of related languages. If you wanted it to work with every
>> single language, I doubt it'll be possible. After all, there are some
>> sounds that do not even fit neatly on an IPA chart, and every sound could
>> conceivably be modified with diacritics.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Herman Miller <hmil...@io.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/12/2011 11:21 AM, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm trying to devise an ascii transcription of the IPA for use in the
>>>> language recogniser I'm trying to create. Unfortunately, restrictions
>>>> imposed by the speech recognition engine I'm using preclude the use of
>>>> CXS for the purpose, so I'm having to roll my own. You can see my work
>>>> so far on
>>>>
>>>> http://code.google.com/p/spoken-language-recognition/wiki/PhoneticTranscription
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd appreciate any helpful feedback.
>>>>
>>>> Pete
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, it's good to have some kind of systematic rules like your -R for
>>> retroflex. Are you limited to 2-character symbols? Distinguishing between
>>> the various "r" sounds could be tricky if so. But if you can use 3
>>> characters, you could have e.g. RA for the alveolar approximant [ɹ], RAR
>>> for
>>> the retroflex approximant [ɻ], RT for the alveolar tap [ɾ], and RTR for
>>> the
>>> retroflex flap [ɽ].
>>>
>>> Another convention that you might consider is doubling a letter for
>>> representing small capital letters, e.g. GG for [É¢], HH for [Ê], RR for
>>> [Ê],
>>> YY for [Ê].
>>>
>>> One thing I don't like much is SD and ZD for the dental fricatives; [θ] and
>>> [ð] are not much like [s] and [z], which are sibilants. I think TH and DH
>>> would be more recognizable. Also for ease of recognition I'd use SH and ZH
>>> for [Ê], [Ê].
>>>
>>> How about the glottal stop?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
>> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (11)
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