There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Marked Nominative vs. Absolutive in Fortunatian
From: Anthony Miles
2a. Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
From: Anthony Miles
2b. Re: Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
From: BPJ
3.1. Re: Real names (was: Re: [CONLANG] Of cubes & triangles)
From: A. da Mek
3.2. Re: Real names
From: BPJ
3.3. Re: Real names
From: taliesin the storyteller
4.1. Re: Dscript for conlangers
From: And Rosta
5a. Re: Names (And I promise this has nothing to do with real people)
From: Roger Mills
5b. Re: Names (And I promise this has nothing to do with real people)
From: Charles W Brickner
Messages
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1. Marked Nominative vs. Absolutive in Fortunatian
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:14 pm ((PDT))
I've revised Fortunatian as an Nominative-Absolutive (Marked Nominative, not
Stative-Active) language. The Latin heritage of Fortunatian and later Arabic
influence means that the Absolutive case is _called_ the Accusative case.
The Accusative (really Absolutive) case is used in:
quotation: huemn 'woman, f.'
address: au huemn 'o woman!'
focus: i'm not sure which meaning of 'focus' is being used here!
topic: huemn '(as for) woman'
objective of transitive verbs: ab bix omnyx huemn 'PAST see man-NOM woman-ACC'
'The man saw the woman'
adverbial form: bon 'well'
The Nominative case is used in:
subject of intransitive verbs: huemna cyr 'the woman runs'
agent of transitive verbs: ab bix huemna omn 'the woman saw the man'
[Information from Dixon 1994:63, 'Ergativity']
Icelandic has a few nouns such as 'hest, hest-a', 'vegg, vegg-i'; I hope
medieval Orkneyese had it, since they invade the Fortunate islands in the 13th
century.
According to Corinna Handschuh's handout for VA-Forschergruppe internal meeting
06.11.2006, the Californian language Wappo works like Fortunatian (the
nominative marking is -i), Turkana uses suprasegmental lexical tone, the
Californian language Maidu (which BTW has an interesting case system which I
want to work with) has phonetic rules based on the presence/absence of a velar
plosive, and Icelandic has a host of various forms. Aymara, on the other hand,
is subtractive (chuqiw 'potato' > chuqiw 'potato-NOM' > chuq 'potato' rather
than chuq 'potato' > chuq 'potato-ACC' > chuqiw 'potato-NOM')
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:42 pm ((PDT))
In the properly thought-out version of the Melchizedekan branch of Romance,
spoken along the Amazon in the FIU, there are two possibilities for nasal
harmony:
Option 1: The Guarani Option
Guarani nasal harmony is fairly simple.
Does the stressed syllable have a nasal vowel? If yes, does the stressed
syllable start with a voiced consonant? If yes, the voiced consonant uses its
nasal allomorph. The nasal harmony spreads both directions until it hit a
voiceless consonant (and therefore one which lacks a nasal allomorph. Simple
but pervasive.
So this option is a simple flow chart. The Guarani, however, did not live at
the head of the Amazon in OTL.
Option 2: The Tupinamba Option (this may look familiar to the creator of
Fairylang)
1. /m/ and /n/ are realized as nasal allophones /m_b/ and /n_d/ when it is
followed by a stressed syllable without any other nasal.
2. in stressed word-initial position, /m/ and /n/ are realized as nasal
allophones if and only if there is not any other nasal after them in the word.
3. /m/ and /n/ always nasalize the preceding vowel.
4. /i^/ and /nh/ are oral and nasal allophones of the same archiphoneme.
5. /u^/ is realized /gu^/ in word-initial postion: /'venit/ > /'guedy/
So Option 2 is initially complex, but lacks the pervasive effect on the
phonology that Option 1 produces. It does, however, have the advantage that the
Tupi did live at the mouth of the Amazon in OTL.
linguam Romanam >
Option 1: nri~ngua~ robada(~)
Option 2: nri~gua~ ro~mbanda~
Option 3, of course, is to take the principle but tweak the rules. Advice from
Ill Bethisad hands would be beneficial here IMO.
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:55 am ((PDT))
On 2012-08-30 05:42, Anthony Miles wrote:
> Option 1: The Guarani Option Guarani nasal harmony is
> fairly simple. Does the stressed syllable have a
> nasal vowel? If yes, does the stressed syllable start
> with a voiced consonant? If yes, the voiced consonant
> uses its nasal allomorph. The nasal harmony spreads
> both directions until it hit a voiceless consonant
> (and therefore one which lacks a nasal allomorph.
> Simple but pervasive. So this option is a simple flow
> chart. The Guarani, however, did not live at the head
> of the Amazon in OTL.
>
> Option 2: The Tupinamba Option (this may look familiar
> to the creator of Fairylang)
>
> 1./m/ and/n/ are realized as nasal allophones/m_b/
> and/n_d/ when it is followed by a stressed syllable
> without any other nasal.
> 2. in stressed word-initial position,/m/ and/n/ are
> realized as nasal allophones if and only if there
> is not any other nasal after them in the word.
> 3./m/ and/n/ always nasalize the preceding vowel.
> 4./i^/ and /nh/ are oral and nasal allophones of the
> same archiphoneme.
> 5./u^/ is realized/gu^/ in word-initial postion:
> /'venit/ > /'guedy/ So Option 2 is initially
> complex, but lacks the pervasive effect on the
> phonology that Option 1 produces. It does, however,
> have the advantage that the Tupi did live at the
> mouth of the Amazon in OTL.
>
> linguam Romanam > Option 1: nri~ngua~ robada(~)
> Option 2: nri~gua~ ro~mbanda~
>
> Option 3, of course, is to take the principle but
> tweak the rules. Advice from Ill Bethisad hands would
> be beneficial here IMO.
>
In Yahab, one of the Sohlob languages I have a
seemingly simple but pervasive rule: if the root
contained any nasal at all the whole word became nasal:
* *sV > *hV,[^1]
* *[f(j) sj x(j)] > h(j)[^2]
* *[tj kj dj gj] > [c c J\ J\] / #__ [^3]
* *sC > Ch[^4][^5]
* *zC > CC[^6]
* *[f b m d J\ g] > [v v m\ l j G] /
[vcd]__[vcd][^7]
* *[p t c k] > [b d J\ g] / [vcd]__[vcd][^8]
* [iG &G i\G aG uG QG] > [i: aj i\: aw u: ow]
* Vh > V:
* Vn > V~, nV, nV > nV~, VnV > V~nV~
* mV > mV~, NV > NV~ etc.
* Vm\ > V~w~, VN > V~:, VJ > V~j~
* [v w l r j] > [m\ w~ l~ 4~ j~] / V~ [^9]
* [n] > [4~] / V__V
* [b d J\ g] > [m n J N] / V~
* [b d J\ g] > [b_n d_n J\_n g_n] / #__V~
* [p t c k] > [p_n t_n c_n k_n] / V~
* [p_n t_n c_n k_n] > vcd / V~__V~
* And thus nasality spread through the word
* etc. etc.
Conversely nasals in suffixes after non-nasal stems
were analogically denasalized (with [n] > [l]!)
Examples:
* _*nadna_ > _nraald_ [na~:l~n] (C.S. _nandar_).
* _*gadra_ > _galar_ (C.S. _gazar_).
* _*gadrama_ > _galraw_ (C.S. _gazram_).
* _*damba sas_ > _ndabgaa_ [d_na~mNa~:] (C.S.
_dampah_).
* _*tinu_ > _nter_ [t_n7~4~] (C.S. _ten_)
* _*Nadu_ > _nhol_ [NO~l~] (C.S. _noz_, Cdl. _ngoð_).
* _*dämi_ > _njæv_ [J\_n&~m\] (C.S. _zæf_, Cdl.
_dam_).
* _*dïmya_ > _ndeyv_ [d_n7~j~m\][^10] (C.S _def_,
Cdl. _diny_).
* _*magï_ > _nvay_ [ma~y~] (C.S _mæq_ [m&R])
[^1]: (Here "V"=vowel, "C"=consonant, "7"=high mid back
unrounded V, "7\"=low mid back unrounded V,
"c\"=vcl palatal fricative. Parentheses are
parentheses.)
[^2]: The northern lgs have
* *{f x} preserved.
* *xj > s\
* *{pj fj} > C.S. /f/, Cdl. *{ts\ s\}
* *{bj wj mj} > C.S. /v/, Cdl. *{dz\ j J}
[^3]: The northern lgs have *[tj dj] > *[ts dz] > [s
z] and *[kj gj] > [ts\ dz\].
[^4]: I.e. */s/ > /h/ _everywhere_ in Yahab!
[^5]: Of the northern lgs Classical Sohlob (C.S). has
*[sr(j) sw sj] > [K f h]. Cidilib has *[sr srj sw
sj] > [r0 K W c\]. Both have *[sp st sk sm sn]
preserved and *[stj skj] > [s\t]
[^6]: C.S., Cdl.: */sb sd sg/ > /zb zd zg/ and *[sdj
sgj] > [z\d] /dz\d/.
[^7]: Northern *[f b m d g] > [v v m D R], S.C. *[D]
> [z].
[^8]: Northern *[p t ts\ k] > [b d dz\ g].
[^9]: Failure to distinguish /j~/ from /J/ betrays
the person from the western area!
[^10]: _ndævj_ [d_næm\J] in the western dialect
/bpj
Messages in this topic (2)
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3.1. Re: Real names (was: Re: [CONLANG] Of cubes & triangles)
Posted by: "A. da Mek" a.da_m...@ufoni.cz
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:06 am ((PDT))
> Expressing who you are and definitively tying your interests to your "real
> name" (i.e. who you are) is one of the many ways of weeding out those whom
> you don't have anything in common
It would weed out not those whom I don't have _anything_ in common, but
those whom I don't have _everything_ in common.
If I share with someone common interests in some art or sport, I do not want
to spoil this relation by the knowledge that in some other dimension of life
we are regarding each other to be an idiot.
Messages in this topic (76)
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3.2. Re: Real names
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:47 am ((PDT))
On 2012-08-30 09:05, A. da Mek wrote:
>> Expressing who you are and definitively tying your interests to
>> your "real name" (i.e. who you are) is one of the many ways of
>> weeding out those whom you don't have anything in common
>
> It would weed out not those whom I don't have _anything_ in
> common, but those whom I don't have _everything_ in common.
> If I share with someone common interests in some art or sport, I
> do not want to spoil this relation by the knowledge that in some
> other dimension of life we are regarding each other to be an idiot.
Exactly! When I was on Facebook I got friendship (is that the
term they use in English) requests from clients, colleagues,
kids' teachers, old schoolmates, in-laws and such as well as
from acquaintances from conlanging and fandom and from friends
outside these fields, and inevitably some in the non-nerdy
categories wondered what the hell I was up to/what an idiot
I was. A total disaster in fact. I know for a fact that I
lost clients, and some colleagues ceased to recommend me to
clients they hadn't time to serve. Not to speak of the
attitude the kids' teachers got...
/bpj
Messages in this topic (76)
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3.3. Re: Real names
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:46 am ((PDT))
On 2012-08-29 20:46, Brian Woodward wrote:
> While I respect people's uses of different monikers, handles,
> pseudonyms, etc. I don't see the above reasons as sufficient for
> using them. So what if others reject you for your hobbies, interests,
> passions, etc. Expressing who you are and definitively tying your
> interests to your "real name" (i.e. who you are)
Whoo are we getting philosophical here! Am I to interpret this as that
you consider a name given when too young to protest is more real than
the name you have built your reputation on? That the name on an id is
more real than the name a person actually uses? That the cards you have
been dealt by accidents of fate are more real than the cards you have
acquired later on and have chosen to put in play? That history is
destiny? (Ok, getting carried away again, deep breaths...)
I don't think you understand where at least some of us pseudonymous
people come from, /at all/. I could spend some hours googling up the
research that has been done on this, but I'm not gonna.
t., who just realized that particular pseudo has been in use for almost
half of /me's lifetime. Ugh how time flies.
Messages in this topic (76)
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4.1. Re: Dscript for conlangers
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:01 am ((PDT))
Matthew DeBlock, On 30/08/2012 03:45:
>> The script is an engescript because it has objectively assessable
>> goals -- i.e. the extent to which the design satisfies the goals
>> can be objectively assessed. (And it's fully enge because all
>> elements of its design are driven by such goals.) That's the
>> definition of enginess.
>
> this was my point
>
> you goals can be objectivly assesed and approached
>
> but you have not laid out a clear goals it seems.
I thought I had, but maybe I wasn't clear enough (-- after all, Livagian script
got mentioned only in passing). Would you like me to lay them out again?
> from our discussions you goals were many, and when weakness in
> acheiving one goal are brought up, they are justified by some other
> quality.
>
> How do you define the "trade-off" equation between aspects?
I can see that it could be possible to define a trade-off equation, where the
equation would circumscribe a space of 'acceptable' solutions, but I don't
define a trade-off equation, and I don't think engedesign generally does either
-- there are all sorts of different cars, different mobile phones, and so on,
differentiated by the different trade-offs they choose, and not working to any
common explicit trade-off equation.
Your question is interesting, but it only really becomes pertinent when one is
weighing up alternative potentially-acceptable candidate designs against each
other.
> Without that, it just appears that you are evangelizing a construct
> by using one quality to defend another, in a "cirle-jerk" of
> justifications for status quo.
I didn't evangelize anything; I merely mentioned Livagian, in the context of
talking about Dscript. Did it feel like evangelizing to you because you feel
that any con-script is competing with Dscript for market share? I promise you,
I don't care about market share.
As for the idea of there being a circle of compromises, that's the nature of
engedesign; the solution to one goal has to fall short in order to prevent
solutions to other goals falling even shorter, and the overall solution is one
that is a good compromise among the different goals, the aggregate best
solution.
--And.
Messages in this topic (79)
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5a. Re: Names (And I promise this has nothing to do with real people)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:36 am ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 8/28/12, Mia Harper (Soderquist) <gloriouswaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
You've given me a little inspiration there, because somewhere in the first
version of the grammar there was a section that suggested that generally, if
something needed an indicated sex, it could be done like this: Female: -a, -i,
-sha (diminutive); Male: -e, -u, -we (diminutive). So, where I currently have
a word like Edhélva (strength) listed as a name (in this case, it's listed as
male or female), I could offer variations like Edhélsha or Edhélve, which are
not common words, but would be name-only variations. Shaoshan (owl) is another
unisex name that could be Shaoshana or Shaoshanwe. There might be other unisex
variants too, like Edhélo or Shaoshanet. I like it.
===============================================
That's not unlike the Kash method of giving first names-- most are derived
from adjectives, nouns or verbs but the rule is: the word MUST be changed in
some way. So _minda_ 'happy; to smile' becomes _mina_ (F), or _mita_ (M)--
_mira_ would also be a possibility but so far doesn't seem to occur.
Messages in this topic (16)
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5b. Re: Names (And I promise this has nothing to do with real people)
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:53 am ((PDT))
>From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Roger Mills
>That's not unlike the Kash method of giving first names--
>most are derived from adjectives, nouns or verbs but the rule is:
>the word MUST be changed in some way. So _minda_ 'happy; to smile'
>becomes _mina_ (F), or _mita_ (M)-- _mira_ would also
>be a possibility but so far doesn't seem to occur.
In the Sefdaanian culture children are named after items found in nature
(star, deer, bird, etc.) or after human human attributes (strength, joy,
etc.). The noun may take the adjectival suffix 'nis' indicating
resemblance to, e.g., qélnis, like a swallow. Or it may take the adjectival
suffix '-ris' indicating full of, e.g., góvris, full of beauty. These
adjectives are then placed in the us declension, that of human beings:
gélnus, góvrus.
Among the Lithans, a person takes the name of the father. Among the Pyrans,
Hydorans, and Humans, a person takes the name of the mother. If necessary,
the name of the settlement and the name of the region can be added in the
order: region, settlement, patro(matro)nymic, given name.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (16)
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