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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: experimental crocodile phonology questions
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Nindic Nominal Morphology
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Naming your Language
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: sentient beings (was: experimental crocodile phonology questions)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Another Introduction
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Information on future English language development?
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Possible base-20 numeric system
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. OT: Re: Anybody on AIM
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Color system
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. OT: Re: Anybody on AIM
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: OT: Re: Anybody on AIM
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Questions about Choton, was Re: Announcement: New auxlang "Choton"
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Volition in Anohim
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: Simon Richard Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Fwd: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Volition in Anohim
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: OT: Re: Anybody on AIM
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Senyecan ortho. breakthrough
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Animacy in Sohlob
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Senyecan ortho. breakthrough
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 09:16:23 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: experimental crocodile phonology questions
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:57:03 -0000, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In developing my conculture I encountered several non-human species
> that could talk. I knew "sentient" was the wrong word, but I figured
> if the Latin verb "sentire" (to feel) could give us an English word
> based on its present participle, then "loqui" (to speak) could also.
> And, indeed, I found one in the Oxford English Dictionary: loquent.
> It is obsolete, but it works for me. I can now talk of loquent
> beings, meaning my six human races and a few non-human, all of whom
> can speak.
The general term I've seen in use is "sapient".
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:44:31 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Nindic Nominal Morphology
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Quoting Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I suppose I too am guilty of 'Celticity'. What judgement would you
pass on
> Meghean spelling?
You know I'm a fan of Meghean... IMHO, the spelling and
definitely the pronunciation are original enough not to
count as a Celticlone. The use of vowel letters for
glides is a big plus. So is the inclusion of /Z/. =D
While you do employ lenition, I think it's far enough
from the Welsh or Gaelic systems to "count". The word-
internal inflections are also something I always like.
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:15:36 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Naming your Language
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How are some of the ways you have named your language and its speakers?
The name for the Jovian language comes from the time when
the once noble language degenerated and overgrew with weeds
in the mouths of the surrounding peoples, yielding "lingua
bovis" (AKA Vulgar Latin), leaving only the Jervans to keep
the high culture of their Roman legacy ("lingua iovis")
alive. The Jervans derive their name from the Roman
province Germania Superior.
The Obrenaj and their language Obrenje are named after
their clan animal species: obro, the king antelope.
The Tao Ttouans refer to their language simply as "the way
of speaking", Oro Mpaa. I don't even have a literal
translation of Tao Ttoua yet.
Hombraia is a stellar nation by the same name in the Skies
of Man coniverse, arisen from an international colonization
organization whose primary source of colonists were poorish
worker-rich countries. The official language used to be
Spanish, but it acquired lots of slangy features from
Russian and to a lesser degree Asian languages. "Hombraia"
is part of that resulting language, an adjective built from
Span. "hombre" and the Russian-inspired productive ending
"-aio/aia", ending up with the meaning "of the people".
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:28:51 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: sentient beings (was: experimental crocodile phonology questions)
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> P.S. When the Buddhists speak of the Buddha saving all sentient
> beings, they are not referring just to humans, but to all animate
> life.
Indeed we do, but observe that the Tibetan term _sems.chan_ means
"having mind". Plants have rudimentary powers of sensation,
but no minds -- said the Buddha.
--
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:18:00 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another Introduction
Hey!
Sorry that I'm a week too late, but I have had a week of
holidays and have not been at home because of that. I'm
just checking my mail and have not yet read all the stuff
from the last week. Unfortunately, I had to kill 26 spam
mails :-|
On Friday 15 October 2004 19:49, Daniel Asserbo wrote:
> Hello conlanging folks,
>
> may I introduce myself. I am a 19-year old German from
> the town of Soest which is (not really) famous for its
> parish fair which is (or pretends to be?) the largest
> inner-city parish fair in Europe. (It is located between
> Dortmund and Paderborn.) I've already been observing the
> list for quite a time now, and now that I have some more
> free time, I decided to present myself to you. (I was
> also motivated by many people joining the list lately.)
Hey! Welcome to teh list! You were "motivated by many people
joining the list lately"? Where? Now don't say that you
have "real world" friends who conlang! That'd be amazing.
> I'm afraid I have not yet worked much on conlangs.
That does not matter. Everyone had to begin somewhere. I'm
conlanging for 1 1/2 years now myself, there's still only
one language I have put much work into (Ayeri,
www.beckerscarsten.de/conlang/ayeri/ayeri_deu.pdf
<http://www.beckerscarsten.de/conlang/ayeri/ayeri_deu.pdf>), though
I have started two other projects earlier.
> This fascinated me, and I tried to develop these ideas
> somewhat further, but with little success- I guess I was
> too young at that time. But anyway, conlanging caught me
> and after following some discussions on this list in the
> past three years I feel I finally am ready to
> participate.
Also bitten by the "conlang flea", huh? I've been said you
will never stop once you've started conlaning ;-) As for
being too young, Robert "Trebor" Jung is only 13 or 14
IIRC. It's astonishing how much he knows about languages
already. Respect, Trebor! I started myself with 16 (I'm 18
now), there are many who started earlier or even later. So
I think there's never a "too old" or "too young" at
conlanging. AFAIK, ol' Tolkien was 8 when he started, btw.
> Best wishes from Germany,
> Daniel "Asserbo" Quernheim
Greetings back to you from Korbach, Germany.
Carsten Becker
--
Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:51:57 +0100
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Information on future English language development?
Sally:
> My broader question: what is the history or popularity, if there is
> one, of "future English" conlangs? Are there any out there besides
> the one Estel says she's contemplating?
> Anybody else doing this? I'm writing on behalf of my friend, but
> I'll admit a bias towards the contemplation, as well, of a future
> human. Given how much our language reflects our politics, technology,
> and so forth, a future English has to take into account some sort of
> future history, and future technology, right? Especially given our
> increasing "digitalization." How can it not?
> Or is it mainly an exercise in trying to predict how we will be
> pronouncing would, good, and should in California twenty-five years
> from now?
I have worked on a future English, specifically how British English
develops over the next 500 years and more, with the requirement that
the development be plausible and that its initial conditions fully
reflect the conditions actually obtaining today. But after
working on the phonological development with some thoroughness,
I largely abandoned the project, because the grammar and lexicon
could be developed only with a comprehensive overview of the
language that required too much time and effort for me to sustain.
I ended up being able to say how British English of 2500 would
pronounce English of 2000, but not what BrE of 2500 was like.
--And.
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:23:35 -0400
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Possible base-20 numeric system
Basic roots:
nol: zero
üs: one
ket: two
kol: three
nel: four
öt: five
sab: six
haud: seven
mbi: eight
nae: nine
tis: ten
ras: eleven
töl: twelve
ðaer: thirteen
nce: fourteen
lüa: fifteen
ðah: sixteen
eiv: seventeen
aum: eighteen
köt: nineteen
Compounds:
ketïs: twenty
koltïs: thirty
neltïs: forty
ötïs: fifty
sabtïs: sixty
haudïs: seventy
mbitïs: eighty
naetïs: ninety
tistïs: one hundred
üstistïs: one hundred and one
rastïs: one hundred and ten
üsrastïs: one hundred and eleven
töltïs: one hundred and twenty
ðaertïs: one hundred and thirty
...
ketïstïs: two hundred
...
tistïstïs: two hundred
...
How do you think I should combine to form higher numbers?
(The reason ötïs isn't *öttïs is because Kosi hates double consonants or
vowels.)
Thanks,
Trebor
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:49:36 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Re: Anybody on AIM
Hey all!
Back from the holidays :-) ... ATM I'm writing this, there's
still to read 207 of ~360 messages just from the last
week :-(
On Friday 22 October 2004 19:01, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Is anybody on this list also on AIM --
> and in the CET time zone would be nice!
> --
>
> /BP 8^)
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
>
> Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
> (Tacitus)
I played with the thought to join as
"naranoieati" ("conlanger" in Ayeri) or the usual
"guitarplayer" or "gitarrenklampfer". I would be in GMT+1,
so CET as well. Mostly online to check my emails, otherwise
online mostly Wednesday evening and Saturday/Sunday
evening. But OTOH, you have to sign up with your email
address, which 99%ly means to get spam from AOL and
Netscape (Netscape 7.0 has AIM included). Most I know use
either MSN or ICQ. That you must be 18 to sign up AIM with
Netscape is now legally no obstacle anymore for me.
Carsten
--
Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:49:07 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Color system
Hello!
On Sunday 17 October 2004 07:10, Ben Poplawski wrote:
> Which brings me to this: I don't think you can get
> colorblindness from your father unless you're female.
> Colorblindness (AFAIK) is an X-linked condition; that is,
> it's transmitted by X-chromosome and therefore impassable
> from father to son.
So I have it from my mother. Or both of my parents have got
it recessive, since none of both is colour blind, but me
and my brother are. My sister is not colour blind however.
> Girls are luckier here; they need two defective
> chromosomes to become colorblind. One from their mother,
> one from their father. Therefore, statistically there are
> fewer colorblind females than males.
Right. When I wrote that, I thought colourblindness is on
the Y chromosome, but indeed, it's on the X chromosome of
which (human) females have two and males only have one. So
the chances for men to get colourblindness are higher than
for females where the defective parts of one chromosome can
be "repaired" by help of the "sane" chromosome.
On Sunday 17 October 2004 20:06, Rodlox wrote:
> how do rainforest tribes in real life handle that? (or
> do the Ayeri live in a rainforest that's greener than any
> on Earth?). *curious*
lol! No, I guess. I only have decided that they live in a
huge part of the tropical rainforests of the eastern
continent (still unnamed) of my conplanet Aréca (that it
starts with [a] as well is just coincidence, but indeed I
like the sound of /a/ very much).
Carsten ... 180 mails to go :-| ... I'm coming!
--
Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 20:30:24 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Re: Anybody on AIM
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But OTOH, you have to sign up with your email
> address, which 99%ly means to get spam from AOL and
> Netscape (Netscape 7.0 has AIM included).
Why not sign up with an e-mail address you never use?
You can make up a hotmail account for that purpose.
It's very handy to have around.
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:18:13 -0700
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Anybody on AIM
--- Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hey all!
>
> Back from the holidays :-) ... ATM I'm writing this,
> there's
> still to read 207 of ~360 messages just from the
> last
> week :-(
>
> On Friday 22 October 2004 19:01, Benct Philip
> Jonsson wrote:
>
> > Is anybody on this list also on AIM --
> > and in the CET time zone would be nice!
> > --
> >
> > /BP 8^)
> > --
> > Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
> >
> > Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
> >
> (Tacitus)
>
> I played with the thought to join as
> "naranoieati" ("conlanger" in Ayeri) or the usual
> "guitarplayer" or "gitarrenklampfer". I would be in
> GMT+1,
> so CET as well. Mostly online to check my emails,
> otherwise
> online mostly Wednesday evening and Saturday/Sunday
> evening. But OTOH, you have to sign up with your
> email
> address, which 99%ly means to get spam from AOL and
> Netscape (Netscape 7.0 has AIM included). Most I
> know use
> either MSN or ICQ. That you must be 18 to sign up
> AIM with
> Netscape is now legally no obstacle anymore for me.
>
> Carsten
Get a junkmail addy. It's always good to have spare
email addresses: It helps filter for what mail you
want. Such as, I only get conlang on this email, and
have an email for interpersonal mail, and a junkmailbox
_______________________________
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 22:28:58 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Questions about Choton, was Re: Announcement: New auxlang "Choton"
Joe wrote at 2004-10-11 19:26:35 (+0100)
> Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> >
> >I first wanted to do it that way, but since "Japan" is used in
> >English and German and thus more known than "Nihon", I went for
> >that... I might still add "Nihon" as an alternative.
> >
> >
>
> You could go with the Archaic Japanese 'Nippon'. That tends to be
> fairly well known to English speakers, for some reason.
Hardly "archaic", Joe. It's perfectly good modern Japanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_and_Nippon
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:03:35 -0700
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Volition in Anohim
The nature of volition in Anohim is very complicated.
Whether a motion is voluntary or involuntary is always
marked. Several verbs, mainly of transference are also
always marked. Kill is considered a motive verb.
Volition sometimes changes the meaning of the word.
Get/take and kill/die are two volition pairs.
Voluntary actions are marked with a rising tone and
the prefix a- /?&/-
Involuntary actions are marked with a falling tone and
the prefix i- /?I/-
The tone is marked on the root, not the prefixes.
EX1:
I died (recently) (involuntarily)
Úv ponhúe ita^ng
1sg-BEN 1sg-be-NPAST-STAT die-INV
I killed him (recently) (he died involuntarily)
Uf jacúe whíz ita^ng
1sg-NOM 1sg-do-NPAST DEM-sentient being-far both-BEN
die-INV
To show that an action is done by the subject
involuntarily, but is involuntarily experienced put
the BEN case on the one who is done unto, and put
noun-verb behind the BEN cased noun, and use the
subject's conjugation for the major verb.
Reverse the scheme for the reversed volition. When
both are voluntary or both involuntary, volition is
not marked, but gathered from the connotation of the
phrase.
If I am unclear, do please ask for elaboration,
-The Sock.
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:19:55 +0100
From: Simon Richard Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
Trebor Jung wrote:
> Compounds:
>
> ketïs: twenty
> koltïs: thirty
> neltïs: forty
> ötïs: fifty
> sabtïs: sixty
> haudïs: seventy
> mbitïs: eighty
> naetïs: ninety
> tistïs: one hundred
> üstistïs: one hundred and one
> rastïs: one hundred and ten
> üsrastïs: one hundred and eleven
> töltïs: one hundred and twenty
> ðaertïs: one hundred and thirty
> ...
> ketïstïs: two hundred
> ...
> tistïstïs: two hundred
> ...
No, wrong, you have a bizarre dual-base system. Each of the quoted
should be 20 more than its predecessor. In the next "place", each would
be 20*20=400 more than its predecessor.
Also, you must (well, should) only have one name for each integer, but
you have:
ketïs-tis = koltïs (assuming hyphens add the two numbers)
A better scheme:
nol = ^0 ... köt = ^19
I will epress the base-20 numbers in ways such as this:
7_2_8_1_2
then we have:
nol = _0 = 0
üs = _1 = 1
ket = _2 = 2
kol = _3 = 3
...
eiv = _17 = 17
aum = _18 = 18
köt = _19 = 19
Then things slightly more complicated:
üstïs = _1_0
= 1*20
+ 0
= 20
ketïs = _2_0
= 2*20
+ 0
= 40
koltïs = _3_0
= 3*20
+ 0
= 60
. . .
eivtïs = _17_0
= 17*20
+ 0
= 340
aumtïs = _18_0
= 18*20
+ 0
= 360
köttïs = _19_0
= 19*20
+ 0
= 380
üstïstïs = _1_0_0
= 1*20*20
+ 0*20
+ 0
= 400
üstïstïstïs = _1_0_0_0
= 1*20*20*20
+ 0*20*20
+ 0*20
+ 0
= 8000
üstïstïstïstïs = _1_0_0_0_0
= 1*20*20*20*20
+ 0*20*20*20
+ 0*20*20
+ 0*20
+ 0
= 160000
for complicated numbers:
köttïstïstïs-naetïstïs-ðahtïs-nel
= _19_9_16_4 = _19_0_0_0 + _9_0_0 + _16_0 + _4
= 19*20*20*20
+ 9*20*20
+ 16*20
+ 4
= 155924
--
Simon Richard Clarkstone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:17:03 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
Danny Wier wrote at 2004-10-21 14:27:39 (-0500)
> This is a natlang/histlang/theory question, the answer of which may
> affect the development of my conlang.
>
> I've noticed that a lot of languages that have /N/ in their
> inventories do not allow it word-initially.
Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally? Offhand, I can
only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and it's a tricky thing to look
up.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:18:54 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Danny Wier wrote at 2004-10-21 14:27:39 (-0500)
> This is a natlang/histlang/theory question, the answer of which may
> affect the development of my conlang.
>
> I've noticed that a lot of languages that have /N/ in their
> inventories do not allow it word-initially.
>>Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally? Offhand, I
>>can only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and it's a tricky thing
>>to look up.
Swahili has an initial /N/: ng'ombe = cow.
The apostrophe is used to distinguish this single phoneme from the
two phonemes in "finger,": /NJ\/, nguruwe = pig.
Charlie
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 22:37:47 -0500
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
Tim May wrote:
> Danny Wier wrote at 2004-10-21 14:27:39 (-0500)
> > This is a natlang/histlang/theory question, the answer of which may
> > affect the development of my conlang.
> >
> > I've noticed that a lot of languages that have /N/ in their
> > inventories do not allow it word-initially.
>
> Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally? Offhand, I can
> only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and it's a tricky thing to look
> up.
>
Thai is one that comes to mind, as well as Cantonese. It looks like
Indonesian also has a few words with initial ng-. I'm sure there must be
others; I assume that Nganasan, at least, is pronounced with an initial
/N/ or /Ng/.
Welsh has initial /N/ as a nasal mutation of /g/.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:14:06 -0400
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Volition in Anohim
You know I can't leave this message alone! :) Volition is the meat and
drink of the active Teonim. I'm still making mistakes in it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "bob thornton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> The nature of volition in Anohim is very complicated.
This sounds like a response to a question, Bob. Did I miss a thread that
was called something else and developed into a discussion of volitionality?
> Whether a motion is voluntary or involuntary is always
> marked. Several verbs, mainly of transference are also
> always marked. Kill is considered a motive verb.
It is in Teonaht, too, but where the form of the word impedes (like lis
(get) or den (tell), one can always tell from the article whether the
subject is v or nv. So Teonaht has a peculiar kind of active system, one
that has a volitional S along with a volitional V. Many of the verbs are
ambivolitional (where the meaning changes), whereas as some are always
volitional, others always non-volitional. So in some cases it is the
subject that determines volitionality, and in other cases the verb. But
both S and V have to be marked in some way.
> Volition sometimes changes the meaning of the word.
> Get/take and kill/die are two volition pairs.
Lisned, bettairem in Teonaht: get/take. A subject with lis is the passive
recipient of action, and lisned is often used to express what we call the
"passive": aid bikar(em) eton-li lis. "The tree gets its chopping." There
is a different word for "receive" that is volitional, since one can refuse
to receive something.
However, I don't see kill/die as a volitional pair so much as a
subject/recipient pair. One can die at the hands of one who kills. One can
die in one's bed. One can commit suicide. I've also noted that idioms in
language don't necessarily have to make sense to us in our first language.
But it sort of feels like making get/give a volitional pair. Do you see
what I mean? Get/take I understand. In Teonaht, conceivably, one can kill
by accident as in manslaughter. It's an important legal verb.
Here are some verbs that are always volitional:
say, talk, do, give, make, go, come, allow, decide, attack, read, write,
chase, conquer, promise, command, doff, don, clothe, feed, cook, eat,
drink, love, hate, prefer, holler, spit, pray, convict, berate, and a host
of others.
Here are some verbs that are always non-volitional:
be, exist, be ignorant of, be absent, be present, be happy, sad, blue,
fiery, stupid and a bunch of other stative verbs in T; get, sleep, fall
asleep, wake up, sicken, vomit, bleed, die, dream, have (inalienable),
beware, trip, fall down, etc.
The ambivolitional verbs cover the senses, of course, and cognition:
hear/listen to; see/watch or look at; smell/sniff; feel/touch or caress;
taste/lick; know of/find out about; perceive/test etc.
But the ambivolitional verbs, I find, as I write more and more in Teonaht,
are a much bigger category than those verbs that are only one or the other:
cry (in response to)/mourn;
laugh (at a joke)/deride or make light of
dislike/hate (to the point of malice)
like/prefer
stand (as a tree does)/stand up or take a stand
lie (as a log does)/lie down, lie low
follow (as a shadow does)/pursue
live (breathe)/dwell
breathe/draw breath
bounce/rebound actively, return with renewed vigor
die passively/commit suicide
walk (as a clock or any machine part does)/walk somewhere
stop/cease purposely
sit (as a spoon does)/sit down
rest (out of fatigue)/rest deliberately
speed up (as a ball does rolling down a hill/hasten
think (wandering thoughts)/contemplate
be ignorant of/ignore
believe (blindly)/believe something you've given thought to
misspeak/lie
make a mistake/be in wilful error
defecate (shit one's pants)/defecate on will
urinate (piss oneself)/urinate, relieve oneself
etc.
Then:
boil (as water does)/boil something in a pot
freeze (as water does)/freeze something
heat up (as anger does)/heat someone up
drown (as a swimmer does)/immerse
end (as a play does)/put an end to
(here we are getting into states and creating states, and these AV
verbs are usually distinguished by intransitivity/transitivity. There is
also a suffix (-ma) that turns an adjective or a nonvolitional intransitive
into a volitional transitive:
worry/make worried
anger/make angered
cool/make cold
bleed/make bleed
vomit/make vomit
sleep/put to sleep
put to sleep (because you are boring)/put to sleep (actively hypnotize)
etc.
> Voluntary actions are marked with a rising tone and
> the prefix a- /?&/-
>
> Involuntary actions are marked with a falling tone and
> the prefix i- /?I/-
Do I detect a sense of hierarchy expressed by rising and falling tone? The
Teonim, little elitests and warriors that they are, definitely privilege the
agents over the experiencers. This attitude is challenged, though, in some
contemplative practices where the experiencer is superior to the agent, the
visionary superior to the false prophet.
> The tone is marked on the root, not the prefixes.
>
> EX1:
>
> I died (recently) (involuntarily)
Who's speaking?? Ghosts cannot use volitional verbs in Teonaht, nor can the
Deity use non-volitional verbs, although the writers cheat by combining the
non-volitional subject with a volitional verb. This is necessary to
maintain semantic coherence in story-telling and religious instruction.
> Úv ponhúe ita^ng
>
> 1sg-BEN 1sg-be-NPAST-STAT die-INV
>
> I killed him (recently) (he died involuntarily)
>
> Uf jacúe whíz ita^ng
>
> 1sg-NOM 1sg-do-NPAST DEM-sentient being-far both-BEN
> die-INV
>
> To show that an action is done by the subject
> involuntarily, but is involuntarily experienced put
> the BEN case on the one who is done unto, and put
> noun-verb behind the BEN cased noun, and use the
> subject's conjugation for the major verb.
>
> Reverse the scheme for the reversed volition. When
> both are voluntary or both involuntary, volition is
> not marked, but gathered from the connotation of the
> phrase.
>
> If I am unclear, do please ask for elaboration,
>
> -The Sock.
Sounds good, Sock! :)
Sal
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/verbs.html
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:40:14 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
Herman Miller wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
>
> > Danny Wier wrote at 2004-10-21 14:27:39 (-0500)
> > > This is a natlang/histlang/theory question, the answer of which may
> > > affect the development of my conlang.
> > >
> > > I've noticed that a lot of languages that have /N/ in their
> > > inventories do not allow it word-initially.
> >
> > Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally? Offhand, I can
> > only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and it's a tricky thing to look
> > up.
> >
>
> Thai is one that comes to mind, as well as Cantonese. It looks like
> Indonesian also has a few words with initial ng-. I'm sure there must be
> others; I assume that Nganasan, at least, is pronounced with an initial
> /N/ or /Ng/.
>
Many Indonesian/Philippine/Oceanic languages have /N-/; not many of the
forms are reconstructible all the way back, however. One problem is that
/N-/ in many cases is morphophonemic (Nasalization+k > N) or a remnant
thereof (*ma+nasalization- was a common prefix(1), and the ma- is sometimes
dropped along the way).
---------
(1) The default nasal is /N/, which shows up e.g. in Indonesian before
vowel-initial roots, like meng/amok 'to run amuck'
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:14:42 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Anybody on AIM
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 20:30:24 -0000, Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > But OTOH, you have to sign up with your email
> > address, which 99%ly means to get spam from AOL and
> > Netscape (Netscape 7.0 has AIM included).
>
> Why not sign up with an e-mail address you never use?
> You can make up a hotmail account for that purpose.
> It's very handy to have around.
Or even use a Mailinator address ( http://www.mailinator.com/ ) - no
passwords, just enter a username to see email sent to that address in
the past hour (everything older is autodeleted).
Very useful for when you just need a temporary address to receive an
activation code or something, because there's nothing to set up or
personal data to enter or anything.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:21:54 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:40:14 -0400, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Herman Miller wrote:
>
> > Tim May wrote:
> >
> > > Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally?
> >
> > Thai is one that comes to mind, as well as Cantonese.
Also Hakka.
> Many Indonesian/Philippine/Oceanic languages have /N-/
*nods* and hence, so does Ko e Vagahau he Motu. Spelled |g| there from
Samoan influence; Tongan uses |ng|, for example.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:22:20 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Senyecan ortho. breakthrough
With the help of some conlang members & a bit of online research, I
am finally able to bring my conlang orthography in line with my
original.
I can now use the following graphemes:
ð in place of dh: ðéva = to harm, injure, damage.
Þ in place of th: ósÞon = bone.
ø in place of oe: øxÞen = bear. Unfortunately, I can't put
the
accent marks over this grapheme. The reader will have to supply
them.
And the following punctuation marks: « » ¿ ¡ The
first two I
use for quotations marks. Borrowed that from Greek.
In doing the research, I discovered a site on an Indian language in
Mexico. Whoever did the investigation has used ö to indication
labialization of consonants. "How neat!" thought I. It adds a touch
of that exoticness (exoticity?) that we conlangers seem to love. By
analogy I will use ï to indicate palatalization. cöásïa =
to weave a
basket.
I am still looking for the following 3 graphemes: s with an acute
accent, z with an acute accent, & gamma.
I encountered words like hexal & octal. I have no idea how these
work. Why are some codes with 3 digits & some with 4? But...it
works & that's all that matters to me.
yùwam suuldïéyam yudzúse
your Sunday Enjoy.
Charlie
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:20:58 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Animacy in Sohlob
I have decided that agents in Sohlob /sQ'KQb_0/ are marked
differently depending on whether they are animate or inanimate.
More exactly animate agents are marked by the ergative while
inanimate agents are marked by the instrumental. I've been
convinced that this is sensible since ergative languages have
a stronger sense of actors and patients than accusative ones it
makes sense that some things are considered inherently unable
of "acting".
But this means that I have to decide what is animate! Just
humans (*if* the speakers are human, which I haven't decided)
and animals is too bland and too scientific for my taste.
Other candidate categories for animacy are:
-- Spirits and gods (naturally).
-- Heavenly bodies (these are gods to the speakers!)
-- Fire.
-- Water.
-- Weather phenomena.
-- Metals (the only more odd category that has suggested itself to me.)
Can anyone suggest more possibly animate categories, preferably with
explanation why they would be considered animate?
--
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 06:22:29 -0500
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Senyecan ortho. breakthrough
From: "caeruleancentaur"
> Þ in place of th: ósÞon = bone.
Congrats and welcome to the list (I missed the your debut on account of
being NOMAIL for so long).
I better point something out, and people miss this a lot so don't feel
bad -- the small thorn is þ (Alt+0254 in Windows); the capital thorn is Þ
(Alt+0222). You used the capital when you probably wanted small.
> And the following punctuation marks: « » ¿ ¡ The
> first two I
> use for quotations marks. Borrowed that from Greek.
And French, German and numerous other languages. I do that for Tech in both
Latin and Arabic script.
The inverted punctuation marks though... are they used as in Spanish, or do
they have a spcial function? In my conlang, the convention isn't exactly
like Spanish; phrases can end only in an upright question or exclamation
mark but not begin wth an inverted one, and that reflects normal usage. When
inverted mark opens a phrase (which can be a single word) and an upright one
closes, emphasis is implied. For question marks, there is a deal of doubt
about something; for exclamation marks, sarcasm. Examples:
¿The capital of Louisiana is New Orelans?
(Meaning: I doubt the capital of the US state in question is the stated
city. Of course the capital is actually Baton Rouge.)
¡Eating at McDonalds every day is a healthy habit!
(You get the picture.)
This is not standard English usage, but it should be I mean, this is what I
do for Tech. Whenever Tech finally exists, that is.
> In doing the research, I discovered a site on an Indian language in
> Mexico. Whoever did the investigation has used ö to indication
> labialization of consonants. "How neat!" thought I. It adds a touch
> of that exoticness (exoticity?) that we conlangers seem to love. By
> analogy I will use ï to indicate palatalization. cöásïa =
> to weave a
> basket.
I use the degree sign in Tech: k°lep (the e is inverted) [EMAIL PROTECTED] "he was
behaving like a dog". So that way, I can labialize consonants whether or not
they're followed by a vowel.
Palatization is indicated by the acute accent.
> I am still looking for the following 3 graphemes: s with an acute
> accent, z with an acute accent, & gamma.
If you use Windows, you go Start > All Programs > Accessories > System Tools
> Character Map. If you use Linux or Macintosh, there has to be some sort of
Unicode character input thingie, but I have no idea what or how.
You could also use S and Z with carons since you can input those with
Alt+0xxx too!
S-caron = Alt+0138
Z-caron = Alt+0142
s-caron = Alt+0154
z-caron = Alt+0158
Can't use that method to plug in gamma though. Unless you just use G/g and
change the font to Symbol for just that letter (which I HATE doing!)
I use two Greek letters in Tech: gamma (voiced uvular stop/fricative), and
lambda (voiceless laterally-released alveolar affricate/fricative). I might
use theta and delta for the interdental fricatives when borrowed from
Arabic.
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 06:38:00 -0500
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: "Tim May"
> Danny Wier wrote at 2004-10-21 14:27:39 (-0500)
> > This is a natlang/histlang/theory question, the answer of which may
> > affect the development of my conlang.
> >
> > I've noticed that a lot of languages that have /N/ in their
> > inventories do not allow it word-initially.
>
> Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally? Offhand, I can
> only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and it's a tricky thing to look
> up.
Some of these have already been mentioned by others, so pardon the
redundancy. These I know for sure:
Albanian, and I have no idea how that happened.
Celtic languages (Breton, Welsh, Irish and Scots Gaelic), but as a result of
nasal mutation of initial velar stops.
Vietnamese
Tagalog and other Philippine languages
Samoyedic languages like Nganasan (as the name implies)
I think Sami (in its various dialects) may allow initial velar nasals, but
I'm not too keen on the language. They do have velar nasals in other
situations, and in fact, they use the letter eng for that purpose. Also
Nivkh (Gilyak) comes to mind; it also distinguishes velar and uvular nasals
(as well as stops and fricatives).
I also want to say Inuktitut too, but I can't remember! I studied this
language a wee bit not too long ago....
Apparently I will never escape my obsession with phonology.
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