There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Newest natlang?
From: caeruleancentaur
1.2. Re: Newest natlang?
From: Dirk Elzinga
1.3. Re: Newest natlang?
From: deinx nxtxr
2.1. Re: Subtitling (was: Newest natlang?)
From: caeruleancentaur
2.2. Re: Subtitling (was: Newest natlang?)
From: Mark J. Reed
2.3. Re: Subtitling (was: Newest natlang?)
From: deinx nxtxr
2.4. Re: Subtitling (was: Newest natlang?)
From: deinx nxtxr
3a. quadrivalent verb
From: Kenneth Asad
3b. Re: quadrivalent verb
From: deinx nxtxr
3c. Re: quadrivalent verb
From: Larry Sulky
4a. Re: Somewhat Off-Topic: thinking in conlangs
From: caeruleancentaur
4b. Re: Somewhat Off-Topic: thinking in conlangs
From: ROGER MILLS
5.1. Re: Subtitling
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
5.2. Re: Subtitling
From: Mark J. Reed
5.3. Re: Subtitling
From: deinx nxtxr
6a. Chat/OT: Pronunciation in Helloween's "Dr. Stein"
From: David J. Peterson
6b. Re: Chat/OT: Pronunciation in Helloween's "Dr. Stein"
From: Lars Finsen
6c. Re: Chat/OT: Pronunciation in Helloween's "Dr. Stein"
From: Peter Collier
7a. Re: Do your conlangs affect each other?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
Messages
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1.1. Re: Newest natlang?
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:11 am ((PDT))
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Not only foreign languages. If someone speaks in a Dutch dialect
> deemed (by whatever rule of thumb) too different from standard,
> they will be subtitled as well.
I've noticed that they've begun to do this on American TV as well,
especially in documentaries that feature people from Africa or the
Caribbean or Austronesia whose L1 is English!
Charlie
Messages in this topic (39)
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1.2. Re: Newest natlang?
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:24 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Selon Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Funny story. I was an exchange student in the Netherlands during the
> school
> > year 1989-1990, and Nelson Mandela was released from prison during this
> > time. It was major world news, so of course the Dutch media outlets sent
> > representatives there to report on the story. As I recall, the Dutch and
> > Afrikaaners would address each other in their respective languages
> without
> > any need for interpreters. However, the Dutch media had (have?) a policy
> > that foreign languages must be subtitled on television programming, so
> the
> > whole exchange was "translated" for the audience back home.
> >
>
> Not only foreign languages. If someone speaks in a Dutch dialect deemed (by
> whatever rule of thumb) too different from standard, they will be subtitled
> as
> well.
This makes sense. But I had less trouble understanding Afrikaans than I did
my flat mates from Zeeland and Limburg!
> This has led to a time when I asked to my husband what weird dialect of
> Dutch
> that particular woman was speaking on TV, just to get a reply that she was
> speaking Swedish!
>
> Oh, and yes, the policy is alive and well, as it should be. Subtitling is
> less
> intrusive and more practical (and cheaper) than voice-overs.
I agree. I really don't care for dubbed movies and prefer to see the
original language version.
>
>
> As a foreigner speaking Dutch conversationally, I personally find Afrikaans
> relatively difficult to understand, on the level of unfamiliar Dutch
> dialects
> like Drents and Gronings, but not as difficult as Fries, which is a
> different
> language altogether. Written Afrikaans, on the other hand, is quite easy to
> read.
My experience was different, but I agree about Frisian. It may be the
language of my father's people, but I have a hard time with it.
Good to hear from you again.
Dirk
>
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl
>
> It takes a straight mind to create a twisted conlang.
>
--
Miapimoquitch: Tcf Pt*p+++12,4(c)v(v/c) W* Mf+++h+++t*a2c*g*n4 Sf++++argh
La----c++d++600
Messages in this topic (39)
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1.3. Re: Newest natlang?
Posted by: "deinx nxtxr" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:19 am ((PDT))
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of caeruleancentaur
> > Not only foreign languages. If someone speaks in a Dutch dialect
> > deemed (by whatever rule of thumb) too different from standard,
> > they will be subtitled as well.
>
> I've noticed that they've begun to do this on American TV as well,
> especially in documentaries that feature people from Africa or the
> Caribbean or Austronesia whose L1 is English!
That's very common. Too bad they can't find a way to send subtitles
from call centers in India.
Messages in this topic (39)
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2.1. Re: Subtitling (was: Newest natlang?)
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:12 am ((PDT))
> Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ah I see, thanks to both Mark and Chris for explaining. I find that
> when captions are available, I tend toread the captions more than I
> either look at the screen for what's happening, or listen to the
> actual speech. The speech of the actors in those cases become like
> secondary sound effects. Whereas where subtitling is present and I
> understand the original language, I end up making an effort to
> ignore the subtitles. Is that common?
Many opera houses have been doing this for many years, translating the
lyrics and displaying them on the wall or curtain above the stage. The
translations are often not literal enough for me and I find the
distracting.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (39)
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2.2. Re: Subtitling (was: Newest natlang?)
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:20 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 12:00 PM, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Many opera houses have been doing this for many years, translating the
> lyrics and displaying them on the wall or curtain above the stage.
called, appropriately enough, "supertitles".
> The translations are often not literal enough for me and I find them
> distracting.
I would hope they would either be pretty darn literal, or else they'd
scan to the music in translated form. :) Not sure what the point is
otherwise.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (39)
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2.3. Re: Subtitling (was: Newest natlang?)
Posted by: "deinx nxtxr" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:59 am ((PDT))
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Peters
> Reminds me of a similar funny story. I was wandering past a
> store in a local shopping mall a while ago. This particular
> store, every time I walked past it, had a television in
> operation with captions turned on (apparently so the
> employees could watch without necessarily disturbing the
> browsing customers.)
>
> This particular time, the movie playing on the TV was
> "Passion of the Christ", filmed entirely in Aramaic and Latin
> dialogue, and subtitled in English. As always, the caption
> feature was turned on, so that the movie was subtitled and
> captioned at the same time.
>
> I've always wondered whether that was a Captioners' Union
> rule or somesuch. One might think captions weren't necessary ...
I don't know but my biggest gripe with television these days are
those obnoxicons in the corner of the screen, or worse yet the
animated advertisements running across the bottom. Besides being a
general annoyance (and the main reason I've practically given up
watching television, except maybe a little PBS) I have seen
instances where they have interfered with subtitles during a movie.
Messages in this topic (39)
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2.4. Re: Subtitling (was: Newest natlang?)
Posted by: "deinx nxtxr" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:05 am ((PDT))
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eugene Oh
> Ah I see, thanks to both Mark and Chris for explaining. I
> find that when
> captions are available, I tend toread the captions more than
> I either look
> at the screen for what's happening, or listen to the actual
> speech. The
> speech of the actors in those cases become like secondary
> sound effects.
> Whereas where subtitling is present and I understand the
> original language,
> I end up making an effort to ignore the subtitles.
> Is that common?
I do that too which is why I have mixed feelings about subtitling vs.
overdubbing. I once watched a movie in Sweden with some girls that I met. The
movie was in English with Swedish subtitles, but I still keep reading the
subtitles even though I really didn't know what they said. There's something
about them that's just inherently distracting.
Messages in this topic (39)
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3a. quadrivalent verb
Posted by: "Kenneth Asad" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:19 am ((PDT))
Hi all.
I am wondering, is there any natlang - or for that matter conlang - that has
some quadrivalent verbs?
I am thinking about a type of verbs which has four arguements:
an agent; a patient; a recipient; and then something fourth.
I would imagine that quadrivalency would describe some kind of exchance.
In fact I am thinking about an example from the english language:
he sold the book to her for 20 bucks
Now:
"he" is definitely the agent - and in fact also the subject;
"the book" is definitely the patient;
"her = she" is the recipient and is supplied with an adposition (= preposition).
Now:
as to "20 bucks"...
Well, it has an adposition :-) but so did "she" and this didn't stop "she" from
being the recipient...
As I see it, one could see "20 bucks" as being 'the exchange patient', or
something like that.
I haven't been able to find any other instances in english, nor my own native
danish.
In fact in danish the sentence would be:
han solgte bogen til hende for 20 spir
What I'm not thinking about, though, is something like the causative voice.
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: quadrivalent verb
Posted by: "deinx nxtxr" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:59 am ((PDT))
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenneth Asad
> I am wondering, is there any natlang - or for that matter
> conlang - that has some quadrivalent verbs?
>
> I am thinking about a type of verbs which has four arguements:
> an agent; a patient; a recipient; and then something fourth.
Check out Lojban. Some definitions that are pentavalent.
Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: quadrivalent verb
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:06 pm ((PDT))
But those Lojban/Loglan pentavalents seem forced, don't you think, Dana? I
think Kenneth's example is one of the few that legitimately deserve to be
called quadrivalent; other verbs that imply an exchange of something for
value would also qualify.
Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Somewhat Off-Topic: thinking in conlangs
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:25 am ((PDT))
> Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> That happens to me when I'm at an Esperanto event and have been
> speaking Esperanto for a while, and then suddenly have to speak to
> someone in English (usually a waiter or other service industry
> person). But a few weeks ago I was at an Esperanto meeting, when I
> had been working pretty intensely on gzb for the last few days, and
> occasionally I found myself starting to speak to someone in gzb
> when Esperanto (or English, sometimes) would be appropriate.
When I first began to study Spanish formally in preparation for a
Peace Corps assignment, I was assigned to a group with a moderate
knowledge of the language. However, whenever I couldn't find or
didn't know the correct Spanish word, I often substituted the
Italian! "Ma" seems somehow more appropriate than "pero."
Nowadays, after spending 2+ hours on a Sunday afternoon with our
Hispanic community, I find that the next English-speaker who contacts
me will get at least the first sentence in Spanish, unless I'm able
to catch myself.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: Somewhat Off-Topic: thinking in conlangs
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:31 pm ((PDT))
Charlie wrote:
>Nowadays, after spending 2+ hours on a Sunday afternoon with our
>Hispanic community, I find that the next English-speaker who contacts
>me will get at least the first sentence in Spanish, unless I'm able
>to catch myself.
>
I spent most of (our) summer 1967 travelling in South America on both
business and pleasure. I went for days at a time without speaking English,
and on those rare occasions when I spoke Engl, with other USans or Latinos
who wanted to speak English, I ended up with a headache. :-( Very curious.
Indonesia was different, as I spoke English in most of my classes and with
many of my colleagues, who'd taken advanced degrees in the US and were very
proud (justifiably) of their English ability.
Amusing incident one day back in Ann Arbor:
Phone rings.
Me: hello?
Phone: Salaam alaikum!
Me: (thinking it was an Indonesian whom I might know) wasalaam alaikum!
Phone: babble in (I suppose) Arabic.....
Me: Uhhh.... followed by good-humored explanations on both sides. It was,
of course, a wrong number.
Messages in this topic (11)
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5.1. Re: Subtitling
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:19 am ((PDT))
Chris Peters skrev:
>
> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:14:31 +0800 From:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Subtitling
> (was: Newest natlang?) To:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> What exactly is the difference between
>> subtitling and captioning? I am a little
>> confused. Eugene
>
> Subtitling = translating spoken dialogue from
> one language to another. (In the case of my
> story, the original dialogue was in Aramaic and
> Latin, and then subtitled in English for an
> American audience.)
>
> Captioning is usually reserved for same-language
> transliteration -- intended to help deaf or hearing-
> impaired viewers to follow the dialogue.
Strange. In Swedish both kinds are called
_(under)textning_. Granted what you call
captioning is very seldom called _dövtextning_
(deaf-texting). Also foreign-language subtitling
is ubiquitous here, while hearing people almost
never see captioning (since it must be turned on
with the remote). I sometimes turn captioning on
when watching movies in languages which I don't
understand at all, since it unlike ordinary
subtitling is color-coded to show who says what.
FWIW I find subtitling useful for actually hearing
what is said in languages I semi-understand like
Dutch and the Romance languages.
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (39)
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5.2. Re: Subtitling
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:48 am ((PDT))
I watch all TV with the captions turned on. Drastically cuts down on
the "what'd s/he say? <rewind>" moments.
Messages in this topic (39)
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5.3. Re: Subtitling
Posted by: "deinx nxtxr" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:05 pm ((PDT))
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark J. Reed
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 2:41 PM
> I watch all TV with the captions turned on. Drastically cuts down on
> the "what'd s/he say? <rewind>" moments.
I'm starting to think that's the only way to watch television. The shows these
days are so noisy, and it saves having to hit the mute button when the
commercials come on at triple the normal volume. For some reason though, SAP
and CC do not work where I am located.
Messages in this topic (39)
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6a. Chat/OT: Pronunciation in Helloween's "Dr. Stein"
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:43 am ((PDT))
Hey all,
This is just something that's been bugging for a little while.
There's a power metal band from the late 80's/early 90's
called Helloween from Germany. All the band member are
from Germany, were born there, presumably speak German
as an L1, etc., but due to the ways of the music world, all their
songs are in English. (What's the deal with that, anyway?
The same goes for all these Finnish metal bands.) They have
one song in particular called "Dr. Stein" about a doctor like
Victor Frankenstein where they pronounce his name as
follows:
[sti:n]
This confuses me to no end. If it were in actual German (which,
of course, was what Frankenstein was supposed to be speaking
in the original [I think he was from Switzerland in the book]) it
should be:
[Stajn]
At the very least, I might expect:
[Sti:n]
But you get a full-on English-like pronunciation, even though
in English we pronounce it:
[stajn]
The only place I'd ever heard or seen the first pronunciation is
in Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein.
Anyway, if anyone can shed any light on this, I'd be most
appreciative.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Chat/OT: Pronunciation in Helloween's "Dr. Stein"
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:39 pm ((PDT))
Den 29. sep. 2008 kl. 20.41 skrev David J. Peterson:
> due to the ways of the music world, all their
> songs are in English. (What's the deal with that, anyway?
> The same goes for all these Finnish metal bands.)
Well, English is the language of popular songs, it's the perceived
truth. Young people with songwriting ambitions write in English
because only then they can break through worldwide. And they are fans
of bands singing in English. Songs in their own language seem
inferior. In Norway, even people who don't seem to have international
ambitions sometimes sing to their fellow Norwegians in English. But
many songs in Norwegian are popular, too. And actually, some of our
metal bands often sing in Norwegian, even to international audiences,
who seem to think it's cool somehow.
LEF
Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Chat/OT: Pronunciation in Helloween's "Dr. Stein"
Posted by: "Peter Collier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:55 pm ((PDT))
--------------------------------------------------
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 7:41 PM
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Chat/OT: Pronunciation in Helloween's "Dr. Stein"
> Hey all,
>
> This is just something that's been bugging for a little while.
> There's a power metal band from the late 80's/early 90's
> called Helloween from Germany. All the band member are
> from Germany, were born there, presumably speak German
> as an L1, etc., but due to the ways of the music world, all their
> songs are in English. (What's the deal with that, anyway?
> The same goes for all these Finnish metal bands.) They have
> one song in particular called "Dr. Stein" about a doctor like
> Victor Frankenstein where they pronounce his name as
> follows:
>
> [sti:n]
>
> This confuses me to no end. If it were in actual German (which,
> of course, was what Frankenstein was supposed to be speaking
> in the original [I think he was from Switzerland in the book]) it
> should be:
>
> [Stajn]
>
> At the very least, I might expect:
>
> [Sti:n]
>
> But you get a full-on English-like pronunciation, even though
> in English we pronounce it:
>
> [stajn]
>
> The only place I'd ever heard or seen the first pronunciation is
> in Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein.
>
> Anyway, if anyone can shed any light on this, I'd be most
> appreciative.
>
> -David
> *******************************************************************
You often hear [sti:n] as the Americanised prnounciation, especially in
names - and I expect the musicians are trying to sound American (or, they
simply learnt English from American sources perhaps). Perhaps the
angliscism [stajn] is limited to BE?
What I struggle with, is how the Leftponders can pronounce weinstein as
winesteen...
Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Do your conlangs affect each other?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:36 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:35:10 -0400, Jim Henry wrote:
> The theta-role postposition system of gzb has influenced the case
> systems of some of my other conlangs, both engelangs and artlangs;
> and gzb itself borrowed a few words from my earlier artlangs.
> There's some phonotactic similarity between gzb and a couple
> of my more recent artlangs, but I don't think it's so much gzb
> influencing them as my own lamatyave shaping all of them in
> similar ways.
I know what you are talking about. Old Albic is where I let
my lamatyave run free, and I am often tempted to reuse all
those ideas in other, unrelated conlangs for their perceived
prettiness and niftiness - but then, I manage to say to myself
"Don't relex Old Albic - do something else". After all, most
of what I do in Old Albic would be out of place in both the
Indo-European artlangs and the experimental languages. And,
as I wrote earlier in this thread, I feel that ideas ought not
to be reused without need.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (6)
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