There are 24 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: Lee
1b. Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: <deinx nxtxr>
2a. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: David Edwards
2b. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: David Edwards
2c. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: Roger Mills
2d. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: David Peterson
2e. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: David Edwards
2f. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: Patrick Dunn
2g. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: David Edwards
2h. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: David Peterson
3a. Re: Future Englishes
From: John Vertical
4a. Re: Morphology marking incremental changes
From: Veoler
4b. Re: Morphology marking incremental changes
From: Garth Wallace
5.1. Re: "Fiat lingua" in your conlang(s)
From: Francois Remond
6a. Re: Languages Website
From: John Vertical
6b. Re: Languages Website
From: Lee
6c. Re: Languages Website
From: Alex Fink
6d. Re: Languages Website
From: Lee
7a. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters
From: Roger Mills
7b. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters
From: Eric Christopherson
7c. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters
From: David Peterson
8a. Re: OT Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
From: R A Brown
9.1. Re: False friends
From: Eric Christopherson
9.2. Re: False friends
From: Richard Littauer
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:59 am ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 8/27/10, <deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org> wrote:
From: <deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org>
Subject: Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 8:13 AM
On 8/27/10 3:11 AM, Carsten Becker wrote:
> A place with temperate climate, but less humid than this part of
> Germany, and preferably where temperatures don't exceed 30 °C in summer
> often, and where temperatures don't fall much below 0 °C in winter.
Good luck with that one! Try the tropics.
- - - -
Vancouver, BC might work...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver,_British_Columbia#Climate
Always wanted to visit, but IDK yet if I'd want to stay.
Lee
Messages in this topic (24)
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1b. Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:08 am ((PDT))
On 8/27/10 10:48 AM, Lee wrote:
> --- On Fri, 8/27/10,<deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org> wrote:
>
> From:<deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org>
> Subject: Re: OT: Place that you'd most like to live& reasons
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 8:13 AM
>
> On 8/27/10 3:11 AM, Carsten Becker wrote:
>> A place with temperate climate, but less humid than this part of
>> Germany, and preferably where temperatures don't exceed 30 °C in summer
>> often, and where temperatures don't fall much below 0 °C in winter.
>
> Good luck with that one! Try the tropics.
>
> - - - -
>
> Vancouver, BC might work...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver,_British_Columbia#Climate
>
> Always wanted to visit, but IDK yet if I'd want to stay.
I want a place where it never goes below 60F or above 72F.
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:03 am ((PDT))
A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia.
PRES.SG will maybe home I ACC Finland
Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo i ape po...eleumi.
PRES.PL use they to (Europe?) there, PRES.SG it ACC one REL...(sky-some?).
Mata ia i iko hita:
see you ACC this (article?)
I might move to Finland. (Not sure about the second sentence.) Check out
this article.
Ha, that was fun! I tried to gloss as much as I could using only the corpus
materials--I was able to peg everything except "neo," "ape," and "umi." I
thought "a" might be indicating present tense, and "au" might be indicating
a plural, but I hadn't figured out yet that they were both indicating tense
_and_ number. Could I get a hint on sentence #2?
My response:
Ík Koloráido mí eshithánthivin, ík Aláiska tenaìkúnkish. Déi mí
eshithálmoòvin ashóanuè zizhóanuè tekáaiku. Náa goìán shí nùuvóazha shí
nùevóas eshithásoòvin. Náa shíi, mosithások zhoskóahaliskazha, sisàovié íng
kizhoskozhavinthiézhuthùira.
Vocab (in order of appearance for easier translation):
*k - conjunction marking two contrasting statements or constituents
Kolor*do - Colorado
m* - much
esh*n - to be pleasant
v* - 1st person
Al*ska - Alaska
ten*sh - home
Déi - interjection introducing an explanation
ash*nùe - snow
zizh*nùe - cold
tek*ku - mountain
Náa - interjection, used for a lot of things--transitions between thoughts
g*n - the area within arms' reach of the speaker, also a deictic reference
for recently mentioned referents
sh* - coordinating conjunction indicating abundance; "not only X but also Y"
nùuv*zha - winter
nùev*s - night
Shíi - interjection introducing a point of concern
mos*k - long
zhosk*zha - summer
s* - auxiliary verb
*ng - negative particle
k*ra - go
zhuth* - south
Noun morphology:
stem-(incorporated ABL or INS)-CASE.NUM.STANCE-(inc. LOC or LATIVE)-stem
Verb morphology I (1st or 2nd person agents without inc. ABL/INS):
stem-PERSON.NUMBER.STANCE-(NEG)-ASPECT-VOICE.MOOD-(PAT)-(inc. LOC or
LAT)-stem
Verb morphology II (everything else):
stem-STANCE-(inc. ABL or INS)-(AGT)-(NEG)-ASPECT-VOICE.MOOD-(PAT)-(inc. LOC
or LAT)-stem
"Stance" is analogous to register.
Agent and patient nominals both take the direct case
Incorporated ablatives indicate origins or causes.
Incorporated instrumentals indicate route or duration.
Incorporated locatives indicate location, possession, or sometimes something
like a "topic"
Incorporated latives indicate destinations or goals
The potential mood can indicate capability or possibility.
An internally-negated potential-mood verb can be marked with a negative
particle to indicate necessity. ("It is not possible for me to not...")
Affixes (in order of appearance):
í - following STANCE, adjective/adverb marker
ái - direct CASE, singular NUMBER, following STANCE
i - following STANCE
th - essential ASPECT, indicating an inherent, immutable trait
á - intransitive VOICE, indicative MOOD
nth - AGT/PAT classifier for places within the speaker's territory
i - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, following STANCE, singular NUMBER
i - as part of an incorporated LOC/LAT argument, LOCATIVE case, following
STANCE
aì - first PERSON, singular NUMBER, following STANCE
k - perfective ASPECT
ú - transitive VOICE, indicative MOOD
nk - AGT/PAT classifier for places outside the speaker's territory
lm - AGT/PAT classifier for diverse groups
oò - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, inanimate STANCE, plural NUMBER
óa - direct CASE, singular NUMBER, inanimate STANCE
áai - direct CASE, plural NUMBER, following STANCE
oìá - equative CASE, plural NUMBER, inanimate STANCE
s - AGT/PAT classifier indicating abstract or odorless items
o - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, inanimate STANCE, singular NUMBER
h - an epenthetic consonant inserted before incorporated roots beginning
with vowels
ào - as part of an incorporated ABL/INS root, ABLATIVE case, INANIMATE
stance
v - STATIVE aspect, indicates an inessential trait
ié - INTRANSITIVE voice, POTENTIAL mood
o - as part of an incorporated ABL/INS root, INSTRUMENTAL case, INANIMATE
stance
n - negative
ùi - as part of an incorporated LOC/LAT root, LATIVE case, FOLLOWING stance
More info: http://feayran.webs.com/refgrammar
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:34 PM, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 26, 2010, at 7â45 PM, Daniel Nielsen wrote:
>
> > Where on this globe at this time would you think you would most like to
> > live?
>
>
> A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia. Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo
> i ape po...eleumi. Mata ia i iko hita:
>
> http://www.newsweek.com/feature/2010/the-world-s-best-countries.html
>
> A feya powi ima! ;)
>
> (A eyana Havai'i ani!)
>
> -David
> *******************************************************************
> "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>
> -Jim Morrison
>
> http://dedalvs.com/
>
> LCS Member Since 2007
> http://conlang.org/
>
Messages in this topic (24)
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2b. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:10 am ((PDT))
Ha! Typo:
...ík Aláiska tenaìk_uó_nkish...
uó - TRANSITIVE voice, VOLITIVE mood
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:58 AM, David Edwards <dedwa...@stanford.edu>wrote:
> A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia.
> PRES.SG will maybe home I ACC Finland
>
> Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo i ape po...eleumi.
> PRES.PL use they to (Europe?) there, PRES.SG it ACC one REL...(sky-some?).
>
> Mata ia i iko hita:
> see you ACC this (article?)
>
> I might move to Finland. (Not sure about the second sentence.) Check out
> this article.
>
> Ha, that was fun! I tried to gloss as much as I could using only the corpus
> materials--I was able to peg everything except "neo," "ape," and "umi." I
> thought "a" might be indicating present tense, and "au" might be indicating
> a plural, but I hadn't figured out yet that they were both indicating tense
> _and_ number. Could I get a hint on sentence #2?
>
>
> My response:
>
> Ík Koloráido mí eshithánthivin, ík Aláiska tenaìkúnkish. Déi mí
> eshithálmoòvin ashóanuè zizhóanuè tekáaiku. Náa goìán shí nùuvóazha shí
> nùevóas eshithásoòvin. Náa shíi, mosithások zhoskóahaliskazha, sisàovié íng
> kizhoskozhavinthiézhuthùira.
>
>
> Vocab (in order of appearance for easier translation):
>
> *k - conjunction marking two contrasting statements or constituents
> Kolor*do - Colorado
> m* - much
> esh*n - to be pleasant
> v* - 1st person
> Al*ska - Alaska
> ten*sh - home
> Déi - interjection introducing an explanation
> ash*nùe - snow
> zizh*nùe - cold
> tek*ku - mountain
> Náa - interjection, used for a lot of things--transitions between thoughts
> g*n - the area within arms' reach of the speaker, also a deictic reference
> for recently mentioned referents
> sh* - coordinating conjunction indicating abundance; "not only X but also
> Y"
> nùuv*zha - winter
> nùev*s - night
> Shíi - interjection introducing a point of concern
> mos*k - long
> zhosk*zha - summer
> s* - auxiliary verb
> *ng - negative particle
> k*ra - go
> zhuth* - south
>
>
> Noun morphology:
>
> stem-(incorporated ABL or INS)-CASE.NUM.STANCE-(inc. LOC or LATIVE)-stem
>
>
> Verb morphology I (1st or 2nd person agents without inc. ABL/INS):
>
> stem-PERSON.NUMBER.STANCE-(NEG)-ASPECT-VOICE.MOOD-(PAT)-(inc. LOC or
> LAT)-stem
>
>
> Verb morphology II (everything else):
>
> stem-STANCE-(inc. ABL or INS)-(AGT)-(NEG)-ASPECT-VOICE.MOOD-(PAT)-(inc. LOC
> or LAT)-stem
>
>
> "Stance" is analogous to register.
> Agent and patient nominals both take the direct case
> Incorporated ablatives indicate origins or causes.
> Incorporated instrumentals indicate route or duration.
> Incorporated locatives indicate location, possession, or sometimes
> something like a "topic"
> Incorporated latives indicate destinations or goals
> The potential mood can indicate capability or possibility.
> An internally-negated potential-mood verb can be marked with a negative
> particle to indicate necessity. ("It is not possible for me to not...")
>
>
> Affixes (in order of appearance):
>
> í - following STANCE, adjective/adverb marker
> ái - direct CASE, singular NUMBER, following STANCE
> i - following STANCE
> th - essential ASPECT, indicating an inherent, immutable trait
> á - intransitive VOICE, indicative MOOD
> nth - AGT/PAT classifier for places within the speaker's territory
> i - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, following STANCE, singular NUMBER
> i - as part of an incorporated LOC/LAT argument, LOCATIVE case, following
> STANCE
> aì - first PERSON, singular NUMBER, following STANCE
> k - perfective ASPECT
> ú - transitive VOICE, indicative MOOD
> nk - AGT/PAT classifier for places outside the speaker's territory
> lm - AGT/PAT classifier for diverse groups
> oò - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, inanimate STANCE, plural NUMBER
> óa - direct CASE, singular NUMBER, inanimate STANCE
> áai - direct CASE, plural NUMBER, following STANCE
> oìá - equative CASE, plural NUMBER, inanimate STANCE
> s - AGT/PAT classifier indicating abstract or odorless items
> o - as part of an AGT/PAT marker, inanimate STANCE, singular NUMBER
> h - an epenthetic consonant inserted before incorporated roots beginning
> with vowels
> ào - as part of an incorporated ABL/INS root, ABLATIVE case, INANIMATE
> stance
> v - STATIVE aspect, indicates an inessential trait
> ié - INTRANSITIVE voice, POTENTIAL mood
> o - as part of an incorporated ABL/INS root, INSTRUMENTAL case, INANIMATE
> stance
> n - negative
> ùi - as part of an incorporated LOC/LAT root, LATIVE case, FOLLOWING stance
>
>
> More info: http://feayran.webs.com/refgrammar
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:34 PM, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Aug 26, 2010, at 7â45 PM, Daniel Nielsen wrote:
>>
>> > Where on this globe at this time would you think you would most like to
>> > live?
>>
>>
>> A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia. Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo
>> i ape po...eleumi. Mata ia i iko hita:
>>
>> http://www.newsweek.com/feature/2010/the-world-s-best-countries.html
>>
>> A feya powi ima! ;)
>>
>> (A eyana Havai'i ani!)
>>
>> -David
>> *******************************************************************
>> "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
>> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>>
>> -Jim Morrison
>>
>> http://dedalvs.com/
>>
>> LCS Member Since 2007
>> http://conlang.org/
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (24)
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2c. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:34 am ((PDT))
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Daniel Nielsen <niel...@uah.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Where on this globe at this time would you think you
> would most like to
> > live? You may choose the place that you are now
> (perhaps you chose it
> > expressly and are happy with the decision), should you
> wish to maintain the
> > sort of life you have, but it may be more fun if you
> consider another
> > place,
> > for the sake of this thread.
--- On Thu, 8/26/10, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Might want to mark the subject of
> this message with a big "OT" as I don't
> see what it has to do with conlanging. That being
> said, I'm interested to
> hear what the diverse members of this list say.
>
OK, I'll bite...
I seem to have a history of wanting to live in almost anyplace I visit, but
seriously--
At least two Spanish speaking locations-- Barcelona, Buenos Aires.
And Rio de Janeiro is (was, in 1967) a fantastically beautiful place.
Bali, vintage 1972, before it was overrun with rich Americans...but the
Balinese, I'm sure, are very resilient.
More desirable from cultural activities POV: Boston; New York (vintage 1960,
managed to live quite well on $100/week, if you can believe that. But, being
gay, if I'd stayed there, I'd probably have died from AIDS long ago--leaving
when I did surely saved my life).
Most practical: never should have left Ann Arbor MI, where I lived from
1964-90. Good cultural scene, great Univ. resources. My dumpy little house was
free and clear, and I'd be a lot better off financially, and would still be in
better contact with friends in the area.... But the town _has_ become terribly
yuppified and much more expensive.
Obviously I'm an urbanite...no isolated small town for me!! (Grew up in
one...and live in one now, groan.)
Messages in this topic (24)
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2d. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:13 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 27, 2010, at 7â58 AM, David Edwards wrote:
> A male ua pale ei i Finilanatia.
> PRES.SG will maybe home I ACC Finland
Here, /pale/ means "to reside at". I was thinking of using some version of
"Suomi" for Finland, but I wasn't happy with either Tuomi or Huomi... And
also, the /male ua/ construction serves as a kind of conditional or
hypothetical.
> Au neo upea ie Eulo pe, a amo i ape po...eleumi.
> PRES.PL use they to (Europe?) there, PRES.SG it ACC one REL...(sky-some?).
It might've helped if you'd guessed that Eulo was "Euro". In other words,
they use the Euro there (which I see as a plus). The second is a bit hard
to figure out: And it's number one (or first) in...everything. Here, "in" is
translated
with "po", which *can* be a relative marker, but is also just a regular
preposition
that means "with respect to", among other things.
> Mata ia i iko hita:
> see you ACC this (article?)
"Site". Could've been "tita", I guess, but I was feeling "hita" at the moment...
> I might move to Finland. (Not sure about the second sentence.) Check out
> this article.
Don't forget the bit about the music at the end! I'm a big fan of Finnish metal.
> Ha, that was fun! I tried to gloss as much as I could using only the corpus
> materials--I was able to peg everything except "neo," "ape," and "umi." I
> thought "a" might be indicating present tense, and "au" might be indicating
> a plural, but I hadn't figured out yet that they were both indicating tense
> _and_ number. Could I get a hint on sentence #2?
It looks like you found /neo/ somewhere (the glossary?). Funny, the closest
you get at the Word of the Day is /neoe/, which means "to kill" (not quite the
same!). That usage of "ape" is a bit colloquial... I'll add a sentence with it
to
the corpus so it'll be somewhere visible. /Eleumi/ means "everything", and I
don't think you can figure that out by the sum of its parts ("sky" + "some").
And regarding /a/ and /au/, they indicate tense, number of the subject and the
subject's status. That's why, most of the time, you don't need conjunctions in
Kamakawi: they're implied.
> More info: http://feayran.webs.com/refgrammar
Forgive me if I totally just cut out your response, but I just came across
something astounding on your site. Everyone, check this out!
http://feayran.webs.com/lexicon.html
I know a lot of people here use Excel or some equivalent for their
dictionary. Evidently if you use Google docs, you can incorporate
it right into your website! Amazing!
Incidentally, did I read right? You prefer Alaska to Colorado?
I gape at you...
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:20 pm ((PDT))
>
> It might've helped if you'd guessed that Eulo was "Euro". In other words,
> they use the Euro there (which I see as a plus). The second is a bit hard
> to figure out: And it's number one (or first) in...everything. Here, "in"
> is translated
> with "po", which *can* be a relative marker, but is also just a regular
> preposition
> that means "with respect to", among other things.
>
Oooh, of course! (For a while I was wondering if "Eulo pe" was actually
"Europe" split into two words for some reason :P ) The alternate usage for
po seems intuitive now that it's been spelled out for me.
"Site". Could've been "tita", I guess, but I was feeling "hita" at the
> moment...
>
> Aha, a loanword! Does Kamakawi lack /s/? *checks...* By Jove, it does! Does
[s] show up as an allophone for anything?
Don't forget the bit about the music at the end! I'm a big fan of Finnish
> metal.
>
Ack, forgot that part!
A feya powi ima!
PRES.SG (play? a form of feyo?) (I'm guessing...music?) (intensifier)
A eyana Havai'i ani!
PRES.SG good Hawaii also
Hawaii would be nice too!
> It looks like you found /neo/ somewhere (the glossary?). Funny, the closest
> you get at the Word of the Day is /neoe/, which means "to kill" (not quite
> the
> same!). That usage of "ape" is a bit colloquial... I'll add a sentence with
> it to
> the corpus so it'll be somewhere visible. /Eleumi/ means "everything", and
> I
> don't think you can figure that out by the sum of its parts ("sky" +
> "some").
>
> Yep, when I couldn't find /neo/ in the corpus, I cheated and pulled it up
on the Glossary page. The /eleumi/ compound is nifty!
> Incidentally, did I read right? You prefer Alaska to Colorado?
> I gape at you...
>
( :D You did! Pardon me while I do a little "somebody translated Feayran"
dance... )
Gí ué! Ík anitháktiìshìe tekáaikoloridoku, ík tenaìkónthisùosh, gí shí
tekéeiku shí oànìeshléi mivívinilkus.
New vocab:
Gí - interjection indicating excitement or happiness
Ué - interjection introducing an important piece of information
Gí ué! - expresses merriment in response to something that has just happened
an*shiè - beautiful (changes via tone sandhi to an*shìe in the text)
oànìeshl* - ocean
m*s - around, nearby
n*lku - the area outside the speaker's territory (incorporable root form of
the -nk- classifier), or a pronoun to refer to previously-mentioned
locations outside the speaker's territory (-nk- can serve this function too)
New affixes:
kt - AGT/PAT classifier for large prey animals; sometimes used for large
trees or large land formations
iì - when part of an AGT/PAT marker, plural NUMBER, following STANCE
ó - transitive VOICE, subjunctive/hypothetical MOOD
éei - locative CASE, plural NUMBER, following STANCE
éi - locative CASE, singular NUMBER, following STANCE
í - intransitive VOICE, subjunctive/hypothetical MOOD
> -David
> *******************************************************************
> "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>
> -Jim Morrison
>
> http://dedalvs.com/
>
> LCS Member Since 2007
> http://conlang.org/
>
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:45 pm ((PDT))
Cadaeum sae Calaefeornaeam, ze co pear lou aeli. Aca ceadu si
Siacagoum maun ve yae yul.
ael -- sun
aca -- but
cadu -- dwell (governs accusative)
lou -- and
mau -- give
par -- wine
sae -- first person nom. pronoun
si -- in, at, by, near
sul -- joy
ve -- on
yae -- first person acc. pronoun
ze co -- because of (governs the gen.)
affixes that might not be obvious:
-ae- optative
-m -- first person singular present
-n -- third person singular present
Some nouns decline with suffixes; others undergo an initial consonant
mutation or infix
Word order is usually VSO, but in practice is pretty free.
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:12 pm ((PDT))
>
> Cad<ae>u-m sae Calaefeorn<ae>a-m(?), ze co p<e>ar lou ael-i. Aca c<e>adu
> si Siacagoum mau-n ve yae yul.
>
"I'd like to live in California for the wine and sunshine, but I really like
living in (Siacagoum?)"
Náa tenilonuvávikalifingiàsh léogonn, shíi ninvánolku ashóanuè
eshisàonthánkivin!
l*n - time, instance
Kalif*ngià - California
(hint: léogonn from root l*n, incorporating g*n; "now/of late")
éo - locative CASE, singular NUMBER, inanimate STANCE
n - AGT/PAT classifier for water-related things
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:44 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 27, 2010, at 3â18 PM, David Edwards wrote:
> Aha, a loanword! Does Kamakawi lack /s/? *checks...* By Jove, it does! Does
> [s] show up as an allophone for anything?
Nope. Neither Kamakawi nor Hawaiian has any need for [s]. :)
> A feya powi ima!
> PRES.SG (play? a form of feyo?) (I'm guessing...music?) (intensifier)
"Feya" means "wave", but here is a verb meaning "to be awesome".
>> Incidentally, did I read right? You prefer Alaska to Colorado?
>> I gape at you...
>>
>
> ( :D You did! Pardon me while I do a little "somebody translated Feayran"
> dance... )
Heh, heh... It's slow going, but rewarding. Reminds me of translating into or
reading Epiq:
http://dedalvs.com/epiq/
Still and all, I gape at you for the content of your statement. ;)
On Aug 27, 2010, at 4â08 PM, David Edwards wrote:
>>
>> Cad<ae>u-m sae Calaefeorn<ae>a-m(?), ze co p<e>ar lou ael-i. Aca c<e>adu
>> si Siacagoum mau-n ve yae yul.
>>
> "I'd like to live in California for the wine and sunshine, but I really like
> living in (Siacagoum?)"
Chicago, no?
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (24)
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3a. Re: Future Englishes
Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:09 am ((PDT))
>Eugene, it's possible I messed that up; it's the first time I've used CXS
>publicly. I was using fauxnetics in parentheses, and at least attempting to
>use CXS in the main list. :/ If you might be able to help me polish up (eg
>point out any glaring issues), advice is appreciated.
>
>Dan
You appeared to be using /A/ for the FACE vowel, at least. It's actually
/e/, or /eI/ if you prefer. /A/ or /A:/ is usually used for the vowel you
mark'd as /a:/ (ie. CALM, in most American varieties also BOTHER).
---
I've had my own future English cooking for a while, with both sound and
syntax changes lined up. It's still in flux and I definitly need to look
into Spanish loanwords for example, but the non-intelligibility is coming
along greit :)
And now the same in the 'lang itself:
Aiz dún yau mai yaun fyoca Angrex khokeng fwá ú váyu, veu bu xian ún
sendrakh chinjaiz dún lán úp. Etz bei teu en frú ún aiz daferli ñeir chio lo
endro Pánex lunor fwá jiampu, bút da nún-anteljebeldriz khúmeng lúng gwic :)
ú á a v ñ x xi c ci j ji h = /i\ A & v\ J s` s\ ts` ts\ z` z\ _h/,
everything else should be pretty clear. Vowel length is unmark'd here (still
too many kinks to work out
)
I'm quite unsure about however about the fact that currently, prevoiced
lengthening (ie. /bæt bæd/ being [bæt bæ:d]) ends up having no effect on
monofthongs; it's essentially lost as a subphonemic detail. There are
probably also many irregular changes that have alreddy occur'd but I'm
missing due to not actually living in the area I'm going to place the
language (southern US)
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (11)
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4a. Re: Morphology marking incremental changes
Posted by: "Veoler" veo...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:23 am ((PDT))
Eric Christopherson wrote:
> I'm wondering if any language has a morphological (or even syntactic) marker
> that applies to a base and changes its meaning in an incremental way. For
> example, suppose a voice hierarchy:
>
> 1) causative > transitive > intransitive > passive > impersonal.
>
> Would any language have a single affix or particle that attaches to a
> causative verb to make it transitive, as well as attaching to a passive verb
> to make it impersonal, rather than just a marker for transitive and a marker
> for impersonal? I think I've heard of examples of morphology changing
> intransitive to passive and passive to impersonal, but I don't know if
> there's ever systematic incremental movement all along the hierarchy.
>
My conlang has several voices both to increase and decrease the
valency (and to manipulate the argument structure in other ways), and
a word (there's only one part of speech) could be marked repeatedly
with any number of affixes. One of the voices to increase the valency
is the causative, and one of the voices to decrease the valency is the
passive. You could add ten causative affixes to a monovalent word to
get a word with a valency of 11, then add eleven passive affixes to
get a word with a valency of 0.
The argument structure of an active word (= unmarked for voices) is
determined by argument structure inflection, and it could have a
valency between 0 and 3. The root itself has no argument structure.
--
Veoler
Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Morphology marking incremental changes
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:04 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net> wrote:
> I'm wondering if any language has a morphological (or even syntactic) marker
> that applies to a base and changes its meaning in an incremental way. For
> example, suppose a voice hierarchy:
>
> 1) causative > transitive > intransitive > passive > impersonal.
>
> Would any language have a single affix or particle that attaches to a
> causative verb to make it transitive, as well as attaching to a passive verb
> to make it impersonal, rather than just a marker for transitive and a marker
> for impersonal? I think I've heard of examples of morphology changing
> intransitive to passive and passive to impersonal, but I don't know if
> there's ever systematic incremental movement all along the hierarchy.
My Ilion treats voice affixes as derivational, so it's possible to
stack them. A ditransitive verb can be passivized three times to
derive an impersonal. Causatives don't take part in this, though:
causative constructions are periphrastic.
My original idea was to have two different "passive" markers, one that
would promote the patient of a ditransitive to subject, and one that
would promote the recipient. Both could be used to passivize verbs
with valency > 3, but would differ in volition. I have no idea if
that's naturalistic or not though.
Messages in this topic (7)
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5.1. Re: "Fiat lingua" in your conlang(s)
Posted by: "Francois Remond" opinio...@free.fr
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:52 am ((PDT))
>24. aug. 2010. 24.46 "Lars Finsen" wrote:
> I see. Sounds like a heavily animated film. Is your Neo-Gaulish used in a
> Gaulish setting, or is it only used for its exoticness, or what?
The language is supposed to be used in an introduction scene taking place in
a remote "Gaulish" time.
Most of the film, however, dealing with a young boy struggling with an
ancient malediction, is set in the present time.
>> If you're interested, I can send you the translated parts from the
>> dialog on your private mail.
> Yes, thanks, that would be nice.
Ok, I'll send it on your website mailbox
> Ok. Meanwhile check up that celticaconlang link I mentioned.
I'll do that. Thanks !
Regards !
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lars Finsen" <lars.fin...@ortygia.no>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: "Fiat lingua" in your conlang(s)
> Den 24. aug. 2010 kl. 19.04 skreiv Francois Remond:
>>
>> In fact, the movie for which it was commissioned is still in production
>> : It will be called "Les Monstres" and is by director Luc Roué.
>> (I was told the production have been delayed).
>
> I see. Sounds like a heavily animated film. Is your Neo-Gaulish used in a
> Gaulish setting, or is it only used for its exoticness, or what?
>
>> If you're interested, I can send you the translated parts from the
>> dialog on your private mail.
>
> Yes, thanks, that would be nice.
>
> In fact, I'd be surprised if this weren't of interest to the list as
> well. But maybe you aren't allowed to publish it.
>
> You do have my address?
>
>>> Will you keep working with Neo-Gaulish?
>>
>> Well, I thought of it as a one-time artistic project but I still keep my
>> drafts for grammatical basis and vocabulary in store if another
>> opportunity shows up...
>
> Ok. Meanwhile check up that celticaconlang link I mentioned. There is one
> guy there who's constructed a Modern Gaulish language, what he thinks
> would have been the outcome if the language had still existed. With yours
> we will soon have a full diachronic set.
>
> LEF
>
Messages in this topic (43)
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6a. Re: Languages Website
Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:28 am ((PDT))
The UCLA Phonetic Segments Inventory Database (UPSID) is your first stop for
all things phoneme inventory:
http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html
Also, re: Wikipedia, you are aware of this page, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:PHON
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (9)
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6b. Re: Languages Website
Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:24 pm ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 8/27/10, John Vertical <johnverti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The UCLA Phonetic Segments Inventory Database (UPSID) is your first stop for
all things phoneme inventory:
http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html
- - - -
Just don't expect the counts to be completely accurate across the tables,
though the values work well for ballpark estimates.
Lee
Messages in this topic (9)
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6c. Re: Languages Website
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:50 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:20:52 -0700, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>--- On Fri, 8/27/10, John Vertical <johnverti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>The UCLA Phonetic Segments Inventory Database (UPSID) is your first stop for
>all things phoneme inventory:
>http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html
>
>Just don't expect the counts to be completely accurate across the tables,
though the values work well for ballpark estimates.
I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to, but -- though UPSID is
entirely awesome, there are traps in it for the unwary, the counts especially.
For instance, I've seen more than once people come away from UPSID
statistics thinking that /t/ is a relatively uncommon phoneme, more
languages lacking it than having it! That's highly misleading at best.
What's at the root of it is that UPSID counts dental, alveolar, and
dental/alveolar (what, variable? not precisely described?) separately, and
there are resp. 23.50, 40.13, and 34.15 percent of langs with the three
varieties. So nearly all langs do have a nice voiceless anterior coronal
plosive, as we expect.
In general, one must watch out for the fact that convention plays a large
part in what symbol we choose for a phoneme! And so the number of languages
which have a phoneme *which that lang's describer chose to name /r/*, or
whatever, doesn't necessarily tell you what you want about nature.
Alex
Messages in this topic (9)
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6d. Re: Languages Website
Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:37 pm ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 8/27/10, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Languages Website
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 3:48 PM
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:20:52 -0700, Lee <waywardwre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>--- On Fri, 8/27/10, John Vertical <johnverti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>The UCLA Phonetic Segments Inventory Database (UPSID) is your first stop for
>all things phoneme inventory:
>http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html
>
>Just don't expect the counts to be completely accurate across the tables,
though the values work well for ballpark estimates.
I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to, but -- though UPSID is
entirely awesome, there are traps in it for the unwary, the counts especially.
...
Alex
- - - -
Yes, the counts are what I'm referring to....
But double-checking my spreadsheet, I see I made a mistake in my lookups. The
usage counts all cross check now, except for "h2".
Lee
Messages in this topic (9)
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7a. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:43 am ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 8/27/10, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 26, 2010, at 9â26 PM, Roger
> Mills wrote:
>
> > Who was inquiring about this back in May (or so...)?
> I've had another reply from a man just back from New Guinea;
> he worked on a language called Srenge (Aruop in Ethologue)
> that has such clusters; in fact one form cited has NC+NC. If
> you're still interested in the question, let me know and
> I'll forward his msg. to you.
>
> Hey, I'm interested! Perhaps you can post the relevant part
> to the
> list?
OK, here it is:
=========================================================
In one of the languages I work on, Srenge (called Aruop in Ethnologue), a
Torricelli language, there is extensive consonant clusters of the form C1-C2,
where C2 is a prenasalized stop. Note that the prenasalized stops in Srenge are
all allophones of what we analyse as voiced stops. However, these are
overwhelmingly the most common allophone, prenasalization being absent only in
word-initial position and even here they are generally prenasalized in
word-initial position in continuous speech. The prenasalization is much weaker
and sometimes apparently absent after /l/.
Perhaps the most extreme case I can find on a quick search is the following in
which a prenasalized b is preceded by a prenasalized d which is in turn preceded
by a w.
w-nd-mbIr-NgE
3sg.fem.subj-refl/recip-light.fire-applic
'she lit a fire for herself'
(where I is barred i, E is schwa, nd is a prenasalized d, mb is a prenasalized
b,
and Ng is a prenasalized g)
This form also contains an r before a prenasalized g.
The major qualification I need to make is that these clusters are typically
broken up by weak epenthetic schwas, so at a phonetic level the prenasalized
stops are typically preceded by weak vowels, not consonants. This is true for
all three cases of consonants preceding prenasalized stops in the above form.
Matthew Dryer
On Sun 06/06/10 1:07 AM , Roger Mills rfmi...@msn.com sent:
> .hmmessage P {margin:0px;padding:0px;} body.hmmessage
> {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} Thanks to everyone who
> responded to the inquiry. Lots of good observations and data. A
> private email from Anastasia Riehl included a ref. to her
> dissertation on the subject of prenasalized consonants-- an extremely
> interesting and complete study of the question, which I pass along for
> those who are interested and may not be aware of her work--
>
> Riehl, A. (2008) The Phonology and Phonetics of Nasal-Obstruent
> Sequences. Ph.D. Dissertation, Cornell University
> A pdf is available (through a link under [her] name)
> at:http://ling.cornell.edu/index.cfm/page/people/alum.htm
>
> Roger Mills
Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:07 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 27, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Roger Mills wrote:
> w-nd-mbIr-NgE
> 3sg.fem.subj-refl/recip-light.fire-applic
> 'she lit a fire for herself'
>
> (where I is barred i, E is schwa, nd is a prenasalized d, mb is a
> prenasalized b,
> and Ng is a prenasalized g)
>
> This form also contains an r before a prenasalized g.
>
> The major qualification I need to make is that these clusters are typically
> broken up by weak epenthetic schwas, so at a phonetic level the prenasalized
> stops are typically preceded by weak vowels, not consonants. This is true for
> all three cases of consonants preceding prenasalized stops in the above form.
>
> Matthew Dryer
Heh... I'm reminded of the Futurama character Ndnd, which (IIRC) used to be
pronounced /In"dINd@/, but now they're pronouncing it /n=d@"n=d@/.
Messages in this topic (5)
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7c. Re: C + Nasal+stop (unit phonemes) clusters
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:33 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 27, 2010, at 11â39 AM, Roger Mills wrote:
> Matthew Dryer
Wait a minute... The "man back from New Guinea" is Matthew Dryer?
THE Matthew Dryer from the University of Buffalo?! Are you kidding
me?! Roger, you been holding out on us!
The Matthew Dryer wrote:
> w-nd-mbIr-NgE
> 3sg.fem.subj-refl/recip-light.fire-applic
> 'she lit a fire for herself'
>
> (where I is barred i, E is schwa, nd is a prenasalized d, mb is a
> prenasalized b,
> and Ng is a prenasalized g)
That is nuts! It's one thing to have two prenasalized consonants
in a row--quite another to to have it form an initial consonant
cluster beginning with [w]! Well, I think that answers that question
once and for all.
On Aug 27, 2010, at 1â05 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>
> Heh... I'm reminded of the Futurama character Ndnd, which (IIRC) used to be
> pronounced /In"dINd@/, but now they're pronouncing it /n=d@"n=d@/.
Ha! I noticed that too last night. I always thought the name was
pronounced [In.'de...@]. I loved that name, in fact. I was quite
taken aback by the new (evidently native) pronunciation. I'll take
it, though, if it means more Futurama. :)
-David
*******************************************************************
"Sunlü eleÅ¡karez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Re: OT Place that you'd most like to live & reasons
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:38 pm ((PDT))
Daniel Nielsen wrote:
> Oops, Daniel, sorry to start an OT, but at least I now
> know what OT means, and it seems to be working out :) My
> feelings were that the responses might have something to
> do with the language of the place and what that might
> have to do with the culture.
Much more likely to do with climate & environment, methinks.
> I saw some other OTs, so I
> thought I was in the clear, but at least I'm learning :)
Oh yes, off topic threads are not exactly unknown here ;)
Sometimes I think rather than OT, MOT (mildly off topic) and
WOT (way off topic) could be useful ;)
------------------------------------
Carsten Becker wrote:
> A place with temperate climate, but less humid than this
> part of Germany, and preferably where temperatures don't
> exceed 30 °C in summer often, and where temperatures
> don't fall much below 0 °C in winter.
That seems to describe pretty much where I live :)
(SE England, just a tad sou'west of London)
Which means I'm fairly happy where I am. The only part of
the USA I know is New England (my daughter lives in greater
Boston) and just about every place I've been to there I
like; if by some twist of fate I had to finish my days
there, I think I'd like it well enough (tho the winters are
somewhat cold!)
When I spent Christmas & New Year in the Cape in South
Africa, I could happily have stayed there. If I did, I'd
certainly have a go at learning some Xhosa; but that was
_not_ the reason I wanted to stay. 'Twas the climate and
the wonderful scenery.
Of the many places I've visited on holiday, I really would
like to go back to Peru again. It was great there up on the
altiplano (the visit to the Amazon jungle was interesting,
but I'd certainly not want to live there - too hot & too
humid). But I'm not sure I'd really want to live there the
rest of my days - but if I did, as well getting to grips
with Spanish (fortunately the Peruvians seem to speak it at
a rather more rational speed than they do in Spain!), I'd
want to get to grips with Kichwa (Quechua) as well. But
that's not why I'd like to revisit the country - it's
because besides being a lovely country, the people there
were so warm and welcoming.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (24)
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9.1. Re: False friends
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:53 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 17, 2010, at 4:36 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 17 August 2010 07:50, Matthew Turnbull <ave....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I can think of actuallement(presently)
>
>
> I remember it as the bane of the French student of English: "actually" means
> "en fait", "réellement" (really), while "actuellement" means "presently".
> It's one of the worst faux amis to remember!
And in English, "presently" can mean either "currently" or "soon" (and
archaicly "immediately")!
Messages in this topic (110)
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9.2. Re: False friends
Posted by: "Richard Littauer" richard.litta...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:56 pm ((PDT))
Gene Wolfe, in one of his Science Fiction books, has one of his characters
state that they can't understand how people in olden times could have the
same word for "the present time" and "a gift". Same sort of thing.
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net>wrote:
> On Aug 17, 2010, at 4:36 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
>
> > On 17 August 2010 07:50, Matthew Turnbull <ave....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I can think of actuallement(presently)
> >
> >
> > I remember it as the bane of the French student of English: "actually"
> means
> > "en fait", "réellement" (really), while "actuellement" means "presently".
> > It's one of the worst faux amis to remember!
>
> And in English, "presently" can mean either "currently" or "soon" (and
> archaicly "immediately")!
>
Messages in this topic (110)
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