There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Douglas Koller
1b. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Daniel Bowman
1c. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Samuel Stutter
1d. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Roger Mills
1e. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Gary Shannon
1f. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Peter Collier
1g. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
From: Eric Christopherson
2. Fwd: Klingon Theopera invited you to the event "'u' - the first auth
From: John H. Chalmers
3a. Re: Naming systems
From: Roger Mills
3b. Re: Naming systems
From: Daniel Nielsen
3c. Re: Naming systems
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3d. Re: Naming systems
From: Lars Finsen
3e. Re: Naming systems
From: MorphemeAddict
3f. Re: Naming systems
From: MorphemeAddict
3g. Re: Naming systems
From: Sai Emrys
4a. Re: I'm famous!
From: Toms Deimonds Barvidis
4b. Re: I'm famous!
From: Alex Fink
4c. Re: I'm famous!
From: Garth Wallace
5a. Re: And/ or
From: Lars Finsen
5b. Re: And/ or
From: Alex Fink
6a. Re: Graavgaln phonology -- the vowels
From: Roger Mills
7a. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
From: Alex Fink
8a. Angosey turns 12
From: Daniel Bowman
8b. Re: Angosey turns 12
From: Scott Hlad
9.1. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
From: Sai Emrys
Messages
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1a. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:46 am ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Bowman" <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:34:11 PM
Subject: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Greetings all,
I recently moved from the sunny climes of New Mexico to the hurricane-prone
climes of Massachusetts.
PS. This is also my first hurricane.
I hardly think Massachusetts is hurricane-*prone*. Yes, we do get hit *once* in
a while, but normally, by the time a hurricane makes it this far north, it's
pretty much wimped out. To wit, "Earl", in the last four hours, has already
gone from Category 2 to Category 1, and it's not even here yet. Unless you plan
to kayak to Cape Cod or the islands this evening or unless you plan to let the
weather forecasts whip you into a lather (they like to do that -- good for
ratings), you should be jes' fine. If you want to wring your hands in angst and
stock up on water and canned goods, wait until the snow flies. And even then,
more often than not, it's much ado about nothing. We know how to get the snow
out of the way.
As for Leominster, I live here. It kind of has a shibboleth flare to it.
Obviously, people here in the region get it right (though I haven't heard the
rhotic dropping of which you speak), but I've heard people from other parts of
the state struggle with it on occasion. And rest assured, if you're talking
with a customer service rep, it *will* be mangled ("Lemme guess: you're in a
cubicle in Deluth, aren't you?" "Well...yes." "Thought so.").
Kou
Messages in this topic (21)
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1b. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:59 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Bowman" <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:34:11 PM
> Subject: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
>
> Greetings all,
>
> I recently moved from the sunny climes of New Mexico to the hurricane-prone
> climes of Massachusetts.
>
> PS. This is also my first hurricane.
>
> I hardly think Massachusetts is hurricane-*prone*.
Well, more hurricane-prone than New Mexico! Just the *possibility* of a
hurricane is exciting. But yes, it does seem to be fizzling, alas.
--
Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha
Messages in this topic (21)
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1c. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 9:13 am ((PDT))
On 3 Sep 2010, at 06:42, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net> wrote:
> On Sep 2, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> I recently moved from the sunny climes of New Mexico to the hurricane-prone
>> climes of Massachusetts. One of the first things I noticed is the
>> distinctive accent around Boston, and soon after that, I noticed that
>> certain place names were...not pronounced as I expected. Specifically,
>> Worcester is pronounced "Wusta" and Gloucester is pronounced "Glausta." I
>> almost wrote to the CONLANG list asking if this pronunciation was inherited
>> from England, but Wikipedia'd (Wikipediad?) it instead; discovering that in
>> fact it was. In England as in Massachusetts, the "c" in Gloucester and the
>> "rc" in Worcester have mysteriously disappeared.
>
> Well, the _c_ before _e_ would naturally be pronounced /s/; then the
> unstressed _e_ probably just dropped out, leaving the two /s/s to combine.
> Similarly, (many) British and New England dialects are non-rhotic, so there
> goes the /r/. I'm not sure about the vowels, though.
>
> Anyone know if the surname _Wooster_ is a form of _Worcester_?
I always assumed it was, but that it was a comedy name satirising the upper
classes...
Whilst on names: "St John" becomes "Singe-n". To quote some guy, 'you know
they're rich when they can't even pronounce their own name' :D
I'm always pleased to inform visitors that Manchester (pronounced how it's
spelt, if you have the accent) means "breast-fort" (mam-castra). Apparently,
the Romans built a camp on a hill that was breast shaped, at least, they were
told it was breast shaped by the local Celts, who may have been taking the
Michael :)
Messages in this topic (21)
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1d. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:02 am ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 9/2/10, Tony Harris <t...@alurhsa.org> wrote:
> We actually usually say Worcester is
> pronounced War-sester, but then again I grew up in Western
> Massachusetts, not Eastern, and we still have R's
> there. Sometimes more than are even in print, as I
> have always pronounced idea as eye-DEER, but I digress.
>
Spent +/- 4 years in Boston, and a summer in Springfield, and never heard
anything but ['w...@] and ['gl...@]. BTW there's a Wooster ['w...@r\] in Ohio
IIRC.
My home town Sioux Falls (and nearby Sioux City) always flummoxed people who
were unfamiliar with the area. (It's [su:]). Current residence Saugatuck
requires spelling-out almost all the time, esp. when dealing with customer
service people in Bangalore.......
A year's residence in SE Ohio taught me the unexpected local pronunciation of
Gallipolis -- not [g@'l...@lis] but [gælIpo'lis], shwoing I guess its French
origin.
Messages in this topic (21)
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1e. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:23 am ((PDT))
Along the same lines I was watching Dr. Who several years ago and a
character referred to herself as Donna Nobu. I wondered, briefly, how
a nice British girl ended up with a Tibetan name.
--gary
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:58 AM, Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 02:34, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And why is it
>> they've come to be pronounced so differently than they are spelled?
>
> You also get the opposite: I believe that Bristol used to be Bristow
> (cf. Felixstowe, Cheapstow, ...), but since Bristol dialect was
> characterised by L-dropping, people there thought that [br...@u] (or
> whatever) was a "corruption" of /br...@l/ and began spelling it with
> an -l.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
>
Messages in this topic (21)
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1f. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Peter Collier" petecoll...@btinternet.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 5:46 pm ((PDT))
I'd go so far as to say that over here (i.e. England) the elided
pronounciation
is the norm, not the exception. Off the top of my head:
Worcester /wUst@/
Gloucester /glOst@/ (note the different vowel to Bostonian)
Towcester /t...@ust@/
Bicester /bIst@/
Alcester /O:lst@/
Leicester /lEst@/
And the attrition isn't just limited to the old Roman towns ending in -cester.
We deliberately twist the pronounciation of many more, so we can snicker at our
Leftpondian friends when they get them wrong. e.g.:
Launceston /l...@n/ this Cornish town often trips up non-locals too,
/lO:n...@n/ and /lO:n...@n/ are common mispronounciations
Mousehole /maUzl/
Loughborough /lVfbr@/
Cheltenham /tS)e...@m/
Cleobury /kli:bri:/ (with <eo> = /i:/)
Leominster /lEmst@/ (with <eo> = /E/)
Westminister /wEsminst@/
Middlesborough /mIdlzbr@/
Rotherham /r\o...@m/
Berwick /bEr\Ik/
Norwich /nOr\ItS)/
Glastonbury /gl...@nbri:/
...shire .../S@/ - e.g. Worcestershire /w...@s@/
The prnounciations, with some exceptions, are pretty regular and predictable
however once you get to grips with the quirks.
-cester > 'ster (but -chester remains as you would imagine)
-bury > b'ry
-borough (and Scottish -burg) > -br@
-ham > @m
Unstressed internal vowels usually weakened to /@/ or elided completely next to
a sonorant.
Pete.
________________________________
From: Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Friday, 3 September, 2010 1:34:11
Subject: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Greetings all,
I recently moved from the sunny climes of New Mexico to the hurricane-prone
climes of Massachusetts. One of the first things I noticed is the
distinctive accent around Boston, and soon after that, I noticed that
certain place names were...not pronounced as I expected. Specifically,
Worcester is pronounced "Wusta" and Gloucester is pronounced "Glausta." I
almost wrote to the CONLANG list asking if this pronunciation was inherited
from England, but Wikipedia'd (Wikipediad?) it instead; discovering that in
fact it was. In England as in Massachusetts, the "c" in Gloucester and the
"rc" in Worcester have mysteriously disappeared.
I was wondering, what is the etymology of these place names? And why is it
they've come to be pronounced so differently than they are spelled? Granted
that's the case with many English words, but English is my L1 and I've
*never* come across a word that drops these letters in such a manner.
Also, are there any other words or place names in the English language that
follow a similar pattern?
Aside:
During my first week at work, I had begun to suspect that Wusta was in fact
spelled Worcester, but I wasn't positive. Riding with a coworker out to
Dorchester (which is pronounced EXACTLY as it's spelled! Unless you're from
Boston, in which case, lose the 'r'), I found an opportunity to verify this.
He mentioned having a field site out in Wuster, and I said, "Is Wuster
spelled like-"
Before I could finish, he answered: "Yeah, Wahkestah"
As for me, I'm going to go pahk my cah in havd yahd. Whateva.
Danny
PS. This is also my first hurricane.
Messages in this topic (21)
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1g. Re: YAEPT: Gloucester and Worcester
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 7:58 pm ((PDT))
On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Peter Collier wrote:
> I'd go so far as to say that over here (i.e. England) the elided
> pronounciation
> is the norm, not the exception. Off the top of my head:
>
> Worcester /wUst@/
> Gloucester /glOst@/ (note the different vowel to Bostonian)
> Towcester /t...@ust@/
> Bicester /bIst@/
> Alcester /O:lst@/
> Leicester /lEst@/
>
> And the attrition isn't just limited to the old Roman towns ending in
> -cester.
> We deliberately twist the pronounciation of many more, so we can snicker at
> our
> Leftpondian friends when they get them wrong. e.g.:
>
> Launceston /l...@n/ this Cornish town often trips up non-locals too,
> /lO:n...@n/ and /lO:n...@n/ are common mispronounciations
> Mousehole /maUzl/
> Loughborough /lVfbr@/
> Cheltenham /tS)e...@m/
> Cleobury /kli:bri:/ (with <eo> = /i:/)
> Leominster /lEmst@/ (with <eo> = /E/)
> Westminister /wEsminst@/
> Middlesborough /mIdlzbr@/
> Rotherham /r\o...@m/
> Berwick /bEr\Ik/
> Norwich /nOr\ItS)/
> Glastonbury /gl...@nbri:/
> ...shire .../S@/ - e.g. Worcestershire /w...@s@/
Where/when would one say /SI@/ instead of /S@/? Does that depend on the accent
of the person saying it, or is it built into the pronunciation of the place?
>
> The prnounciations, with some exceptions, are pretty regular and predictable
> however once you get to grips with the quirks.
>
> -cester > 'ster (but -chester remains as you would imagine)
I wonder where the triplet _-caster_ : _-cester_ : _-chester_ comes from. The
regular result, IIANM, would be _chester_ (cf. _cheese_ < câseus); I wonder if
_cester_ was ever pronounced /sester/ (vel sim.), or if it always had /tS/
until that sound coalesced with the following /s/. (Are there any _-cester_
place names still in existence where it's pronounced /s...@st@/ or /sEst@/?)
Also, _-chester_ is pronounced /tS)Est@/, not /tS)@st@/, right? I believe it
has a full vowel in US usage. My personal style is to use a full /{/ in
_Lancaster_, but I think the place in Pennsylvania is pronounced locally as
/"l...@st@r/.
> -bury > b'ry
> -borough (and Scottish -burg) > -br@
> -ham > @m
> Unstressed internal vowels usually weakened to /@/ or elided completely next
> to
> a sonorant.
>
>
> Pete.
Messages in this topic (21)
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2. Fwd: Klingon Theopera invited you to the event "'u' - the first auth
Posted by: "John H. Chalmers" jhchalm...@ucsd.edu
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 9:02 am ((PDT))
Just a reminder for those of you in the Netherlands next week.
facebook
Hi John,
Klingon invited you to 'u' - the first authentic Klingon opera on earth
<http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=140743462621987&mid=2ead9b6G1de58278G688c8d8G7&n_m=jhchalmers%40ucsd.edu>.
'u' - the first authentic Klingon opera on earth
<http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=140743462621987&mid=2ead9b6G1de58278G688c8d8G7&n_m=jhchalmers%40ucsd.edu>
Thursday, September 9 at 8:30pm
Location: zeebelt, the hague
Are you attending? Yes
<http://www.facebook.com/n/?ajax%2Fevent_invite_rsvp.php&eid=140743462621987&rsvp=Attending&hash=gS6Xt6nn9c-G&mid=2ead9b6G1de58278G688c8d8G7&n_m=jhchalmers%40ucsd.edu>
- No
<http://www.facebook.com/n/?ajax%2Fevent_invite_rsvp.php&eid=140743462621987&rsvp=Not+Attending&hash=pFpMZdXZkGu8&mid=2ead9b6G1de58278G688c8d8G7&n_m=jhchalmers%40ucsd.edu>
- Maybe
<http://www.facebook.com/n/?ajax%2Fevent_invite_rsvp.php&eid=140743462621987&rsvp=Maybe+Attending&hash=aGQftiGq0Sp8&mid=2ead9b6G1de58278G688c8d8G7&n_m=jhchalmers%40ucsd.edu>
Thanks,
The Facebook Team
To see more details and RSVP, follow the link below:
http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=140743462621987&mid=2ead9b6G1de58278G688c8d8G7&n_m=jhchalmers%40ucsd.edu
<http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=140743462621987&mid=2ead9b6G1de58278G688c8d8G7&n_m=jhchalmers%40ucsd.edu>
This message was intended for jhchalm...@ucsd.edu. If you do not wish to
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Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 11:09 am ((PDT))
-- On Fri, 9/3/10, Sai Emrys <s...@saizai.com> wrote:
> I'm considering legally changing my
> name to just "Sai" (mononymic),
> and considering the implications of that. (See
> http://saizai.livejournal.com/tag/naming
> for details.)
Good luck with that, though AFAIC, nihil obstat......
>
> Currently, mononyms proper are rare outside Indonesia,
Actually, almost exclusively Javanese (maybe also some Sundanese and Madurese
who also inhabit Java, though those folks are better Muslims than the Javanese
and tend to have Arabic-type names.) And almost all their mononyms are Sanskrit
derived--
Sukarno 'beautiful/good reason'
Suharto 'beautiful/good treasure'
Susilo 'beautiful/good principle'
Suseno 'beautiful/good (unknown)'
(those final -o's are /a/ in Javanese)
And in direct or familiar address, you can drop the Su- : pak harto, pak seno
etc.
Most Muslims, of course, have Arabic style names; Balinese (variety of Hindu)
have an odd system which I'm not totally up on...but I think it can include
Caste + given + family or location, at least in some cases.
>
> ObCL: How do you handle names in your concultures? Any
> interesting
> systems of mono/polynymy, descent, etc?
Not especially, IMO....
Kash commoners use given+family name; family names are often derived from
'child of...', or a place name, or like ours, no longer anaylzable. Titled
people use given+title (which usually contains a place name); they may also
have a family name but it isn't used. Their children are
given+numeric+place/family name-- the numerics are mesa, rona, sina, prana--
resp. '1st, 2d, 3d, 4th/later child'
The wealthy sometimes affect this system, but aren't supposed to.
Most given names are variant forms of adjectives-- e.g. my common ex. name
Shenji ("çenji") is from çenjik 'sober, dignified'. Nicknames can be formed by
adding the dim. suffix -ci, then shortening the result: e.g. çenji > çénjici or
cici; mina > mínaci > naci
Gwrs have clan + family + given (often 2 words)-- so my putative linguistic
scholar Chang Shi No Ang would be known as No Ang.
Lañ-Lañ have given + family + clan (and/or maybe moiety, I haven't really
worked on this.) At the moment, all the given hames I've created are
unanalyzable....
> Especially with a large comparison pool (e.g. everyone on
> the planet,
> in the case of domain names, global trademarks, and
> non-Indonesian
> mononyms) it seems that preventing name conflicts would be
> difficult,
> with a tendency for mononym + profession/location to
> crystallize into
> a given name / family name system.
All the Roberts and Davids, Bobs and Daves, etc. may need further
identification at times, but Sai (so spelled) is AFAIK unheard of in English
speaking cultures-- but we do have Cy < Cyrus, and my lesbian ex-neighbor Cy <
Priscilla (6ft tall, with a short haircut, pants and baggy shirt, and deeper
than average voice, her gender was quite ambiguous :-))))
Messages in this topic (14)
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3b. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 11:26 am ((PDT))
>Possibly also (some subset of?) Tamils.
Just BTW, that reminded me of a Telugu movie (probably a take-off of a Tamil
movie) called Sye. Apparently, in that context the word means something like
"challenge" or "ready" or "bring it on".
Messages in this topic (14)
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3c. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:05 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:27:50 -0700, Sai Emrys wrote:
> ObCL: How do you handle names in your concultures? Any interesting
> systems of mono/polynymy, descent, etc?
An Old Albic personal name consists of a given name (a name given to
the bearer on birth by his/her parents), a chosen name (a name he/she
chose by himself/herself on his/her 12th birthday) and a patronymic
(based on his/her father's chosen name, with the ending -ino/ine added).
House names are also common but not universal. Elves who have left
their home town/village usually add the ablative of their home town.
Both the given and chosen names are generally meaningful nouns.
The given name is a rather intimate affair, used mainly within
the family or among close friends. The belief is widespread that
someone knowing a person's given name can attain magical power over
that person, hence disclosing one's given name may be dangerous.
The given name is usually drawn from a pool of names current in the
family, or the (given or chosen) name of a well-remembered former
family member.
The name by which an adult Elf is usually known and addresses is the
chosen name, which is the public name for all purposes. The chosen
name is often a childhood nickname, or something to do with the Elf's
(intended) profession, or something expressing his/her mindset.
Chosen names can be changed later, though that is not common.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (14)
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3d. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:19 pm ((PDT))
Den 3. sep. 2010 kl. 06.27 skreiv Sai Emrys:
> I'm considering legally changing my name to just "Sai" (mononymic),
> and considering the implications of that. (See
> http://saizai.livejournal.com/tag/naming for details.)
Well, Emrys is a nice Welsh name, I think.
> Currently, mononyms proper are rare outside Indonesia, Japanese
> royalty, and celebrities.
Hmm, the Rex of other royalty isn't exactly a last name, is it?
> ObCL: How do you handle names in your concultures? Any interesting
> systems of mono/polynymy, descent, etc?
Naming is something I have developed more than most other aspects, as
my childhood inventory of invented names is what I have based my
conlangs on.
The Suraetua only have one personal name, but in formal address, the
name of the person's mother and sometimes also the name of the house
that the person occupies (belongs to) is mentioned too. Nicknames are
used in cases of name conflict.
I found out soon in my analysis of Urianian names that very few last
names occurred more than once, and I concluded that it indicated they
are not hereditary. So I have assumed a system initially similar or
identical to the above, but developing a tradition where a person
will get a second name when coming of age. (Making my system
curiously similar to Jörg's.)
The most common types are ablatives, containing a place name, and
genitive plurals, containing apparently a family name. But there are
many consisting of a single adjectives, such as "honeysweet",
"radiant", "clairvoyant", "generous" or even phrases, such as "The
Thunderer is pleased", "The one who has been predicted", "Thundering
hooves", then there are occupational names, like "farmer", "fisher",
"furnace worker", "road paver", and surprisingly many indicating
fosterhood, even some apparently derogative, such as "fostered by
misdeeder" or "fostered by the traitor".
In later times the Urianians are registered with the genitive
singulars of their mother's names before they come of age. These were
registered as last names throughout the life when the country was
ruled by the Danes, and the coming-of-age names were unofficial, but
have been made official again since. However, the Christians, who
number a substantial fraction, have adopted the habit of having
hereditary family names, and Naryam, which means "Christian" is one
of the few really common ones. There are also people called Sezud,
"Pagan", and Emrigz, "Half-Pagan".
LEF
Messages in this topic (14)
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3e. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:52 pm ((PDT))
Regarding Han, he apeared to be caucasian (i.e., not oriental), so I was
particularly puzzled by his Han-sounding name.
stevo
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:48 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I was in the army, I knew a fellow soldier named just "Han". We
> weren't close, though, so I don't know anything about how his name affected
> his life.
>
> stevo (also a mononym, but not official)
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 12:27 AM, Sai Emrys <s...@saizai.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm considering legally changing my name to just "Sai" (mononymic),
>> and considering the implications of that. (See
>> http://saizai.livejournal.com/tag/naming for details.)
>>
>> Currently, mononyms proper are rare outside Indonesia, Japanese
>> royalty, and celebrities. They're slightly more common as stage names
>> (rather than legal names). But for Westerners, it's quite unusual, and
>> I only know of a handful of people who're actually legally mononymic
>> (e.g. Cher, Prince, Teller).
>>
>> So the only real argument in favor of my polynymy is to better please
>> silly databases... which is an interesting and (IMO) a bit odd
>> constraint to have in a cultural system.
>>
>> ObCL: How do you handle names in your concultures? Any interesting
>> systems of mono/polynymy, descent, etc?
>>
>> Especially with a large comparison pool (e.g. everyone on the planet,
>> in the case of domain names, global trademarks, and non-Indonesian
>> mononyms) it seems that preventing name conflicts would be difficult,
>> with a tendency for mononym + profession/location to crystallize into
>> a given name / family name system.
>>
>> I'm curious what else y'all have come up with, or interesting ways of
>> handling that.
>>
>> - Sai
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3f. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 3:01 pm ((PDT))
When I was in the army, I knew a fellow soldier named just "Han". We weren't
close, though, so I don't know anything about how his name affected his
life.
stevo (also a mononym, but not official)
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 12:27 AM, Sai Emrys <s...@saizai.com> wrote:
> I'm considering legally changing my name to just "Sai" (mononymic),
> and considering the implications of that. (See
> http://saizai.livejournal.com/tag/naming for details.)
>
> Currently, mononyms proper are rare outside Indonesia, Japanese
> royalty, and celebrities. They're slightly more common as stage names
> (rather than legal names). But for Westerners, it's quite unusual, and
> I only know of a handful of people who're actually legally mononymic
> (e.g. Cher, Prince, Teller).
>
> So the only real argument in favor of my polynymy is to better please
> silly databases... which is an interesting and (IMO) a bit odd
> constraint to have in a cultural system.
>
> ObCL: How do you handle names in your concultures? Any interesting
> systems of mono/polynymy, descent, etc?
>
> Especially with a large comparison pool (e.g. everyone on the planet,
> in the case of domain names, global trademarks, and non-Indonesian
> mononyms) it seems that preventing name conflicts would be difficult,
> with a tendency for mononym + profession/location to crystallize into
> a given name / family name system.
>
> I'm curious what else y'all have come up with, or interesting ways of
> handling that.
>
> - Sai
>
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3g. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" s...@saizai.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:34 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Daniel Nielsen <niel...@uah.edu> wrote:
> Are you considering the semantic intermingling with the Hindi "sai"
> (aspirated; "saint/divine master", so it is in a sense somewhat similar to
> English "mister/master")?
No, for a few reasons. One is that some "religious" folk of this sort
(e.g. Sathya Sai Baba) are IMO repugnant con artists, and I don't want
to encourage such an association.
The second is that I feel no particular national/cultural/familial
affiliation. (This is partly the reason for wanting to drop "Emrys" as
well; I dislike the implied Welsh affiliation.) Your suggestion would
imply a Hindi affiliation.
I think that I'm rather rare in this; arguably an effect of in large
part growing up online? So in a sense I want names to work almost like
handles do - if not completely globally unique, then reasonably so.
Hardly sustainable with the actual global population, but there are
surprisingly few competitors for good nondescriptive handles.
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> All the Roberts and Davids, Bobs and Daves, etc. may need further
> identification at times, but Sai (so spelled) is AFAIK unheard of in English
> speaking cultures
Indeed. Which means I am in a reasonably good position to have the
mononym and still be nigh globally unique for the contexts I'm in.
Kinda rare for such a short and easily pronounced/remembered name.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: I'm famous!
Posted by: "Toms Deimonds Barvidis" emopun...@inbox.lv
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:16 pm ((PDT))
> On Sep 2, 2010, at 11â29 PM, Adam Walker wrote:
>
> Yeah, that's what I thought too. Now my news gets even weirder. Apparently
> there is a Latvian band called Hugo which has recoreded my TPR lessons for
> Lrahran and my q~'u^pl!
No way! I'm from Latvia and this is the first time I've heard about them :D
--
In mist and twilight I shall linger
~TDB~
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: I'm famous!
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:46 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, 3 Sep 2010 07:14:21 -0400, Jim Henry <jimhenry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>_Journal of Language & Translation_ [...] also
>has a skeezy (IMO) policy of buying all rights from its authors, i.e.
>purchasing copyright outright, rather than buying first serial rights
>to articles (and perhaps an option to buy reprint rights for an
>anthology) as is standard practice elsewhere. (Actually, I'm not sure
>they actually *buy* rights; there's no mention of pay rates -- it just
>says they expect you to transfer copyright to them on acceptance.)
This is unfortunately more or less standard among the academic math journals
that I publish in, and I'd guess probably broadly in academia. And indeed,
they don't buy rights, they just expect them signed over. At least there
are generally exemptions for personal distribution to fellow researchers,
and they let preprints on arxiv.org and the like remain up.
In any case, publication with a journal tends to be the last big event in
the life of papers in my line (though I guess a few might later become book
chapters or the like, in revised form); I've never heard of a math person
seeking out first serial rights.
Alex
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: I'm famous!
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:23 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Garth Wallace <gwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > (as a rare example of a constructed language which uses aspect!?!?)
>>
>> Say what?
>>
>
> Yeah, that's what I thought too. Now my news gets even weirder. Apparently
> there is a Latvian band called Hugo which has recoreded my TPR lessons for
> Lrahran and my q~'u^pl! Bable text as crustcore songs. The Bable text was
> apparently redone by a vomitcore band called Gleb who did a whole album of
> Bable texts including Brithenig and Teonaht among others from list members.
> Adam the bemused
OK, you're going to have to point us (by which I mean me) towards this
stuff now.
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: And/ or
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:57 pm ((PDT))
Den 3. sep. 2010 kl. 08.10 skreiv R A Brown:
>
> Ancient καί had the same range of meanings also.
Does it have an IE etymology? I don't find it in the StarLing
database, and it's not listed in Sihler's index.
Looks like something useful to have in Urianian, at least Old Urianian.
LEF
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: And/ or
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:54 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, 3 Sep 2010 21:55:23 +0200, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no> wrote:
>Den 3. sep. 2010 kl. 08.10 skreiv R A Brown:
>>
>> Ancient [kai'] had the same range of meanings also.
>
>Does it have an IE etymology? I don't find it in the StarLing
>database, and it's not listed in Sihler's index.
That came up only a few months back
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1005C&L=CONLANG&P=R1814
when I said
| Beekes has _kai_ coming from IE *k;m=t- 'along, downwards' >
| *_kasi_ (so akin to _kata'_) with I suppose irregular loss of the [s]
[ed: _after_ [s] < [t]; this is not the regular Greek s>0/V_V]
| (archaic Cypriote dropped the [i] instead),
| and compares the first componsnt of _kasi'gne:tos_
| and the Hittite _katta_ 'under', _katti_ 'at, amid, with, at the home of'.
| (Beekes' dictionary is
|
http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/startq.cgi?flags=endnnnl&root=leiden&amp;basename=\data\ie\greek
| ; I don't see a good way to link to a record.)
Alex
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: Graavgaln phonology -- the vowels
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:17 pm ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 9/3/10, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In looking back at my old stuff on Graavgaln I find
> the phonology just
> > doesn't quite work form me anymore. Here is what
> it used to be:
> >
> > high unround:
> >
> > /i/, /I/, /1/, /U_c/, /M/ romanized as [ii]. [i],
> [î], [ü], [üü]
/i:/ /i/ /1/ /ü/ /ü:/
> >
> > high round:
> >
> > /y/, /Y/, /u\/, /U/, /u/ romanized as <ÿÿ>, etc
/y:/ /y/ /u\/ /u/ /u:/
> > mid unround:
> >
> > /e/, /E/, /@\/, /V/, /7/ romanized as <ee>,
> <e>, <ê>, <ö>, <öö>
/e:/ /e/ /@\/ /ö/ /ö:/
> > mid round:
> >
> > /2/, /9/, /8/, /O/, /o/ romanized as <øø>,
> <ø>, <â>, <o>, <oo>
> >
> > low unround:
> >
> > /a/, /A/ romanized as <æ>, <aa>
/a/ /a:/
> >
> > low round:
> >
> > /&\/, /Q/ romanized as <å>, <a>]
a-ring, a-ring+long (for some reason can't do numeric codes)
Note that this leaves all the central vowels short only, not unnatural I think.
> >
> > Leaving aside the cludgy romainzation for the moment,
> what specific
> > complaints arise about this (admitedly large) vowel
> inventory?
> >
Aside from the unnatural quantity...
Could some of these (perhaps you already did this) be reduced to long :: short
pairs? (as suggested above) Still a big phonemic inventory, however...but not
much worse than English. Could some be allophones? Historical origins might be
a problem. But Gwr has 18 vowels (basic 9, long/short) + central /r/ [3r\]--
historical origins are accounted for, but it involves reducing diphthongs, or
(in some cases) whole words to monosyllables....
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
7a. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:45 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 23:32:46 -0700, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The consonants ehibit the same kitchen-sink-y approach as the vowels show
>in the previous post.
>
>voiceless aspirated stops:
>
>/p_h/, /t_h/, /k_h/, /q_h/ romanized as <p>, <t>, <k>, <q>
>
>voiced unaspirated stops:
>
>/b/, /d/, /d`/, /g/, /G\/ romanized as <b>, <d>, <d̦>, <g> , <qg>
>
>vocied aspirated stops:
>
>/b_h/, /d_h/, /g_h/ romanized as <b'>, <d'>, <g'>
>
>voiceless fricatives:
>
>/p\/, /f/, /T/, /s/, /S/, /C/, /x/, /X/, /X\/, /h/ romanized as <ph>, <f>,
><th>, <s>, <sh>, <ç>, <kh>, <hr>, <x>, <h>
>
>voiced fricatives:
>
>/B/, /v/, /D/, /z/, /Z/, /G/, /R/, /h\/ romanized as <bh>, <v>, <dh>, <z>,
><zh>, <gh>, <hrr>, <hh>
>
>voiceless affricates:
>
>/pf)/, /ts)/, /cC)/, /tS)/, /tK/ romanized as <pf>, <ts>, <c>, <ch>, <tl>
>
>voiced affricates:
>
>/bv)/, /dz)/, /J\j\)/, /dZ)/ romanized as <bv>, <dz>, <j>, <jh>
>
>nasals:
>
>/m/, /n/, /n`/, /J/, /N/ romanized as <m>, <n>, <Å>, <ñ>, <ng>
>
>rhotics:
>
>/r\`/, /r/, /r\v)/ romanized as <r>, <rr>, <rv>
>
>lateral approximants:
>
>/l/, /l_0/, /l`/, /L/ romamized as <l>, <lh>, <ļ>, <ll>
>
>semi-vowels:
>
>/j/, /w/ romanized as <y>, <w>
>
>**************************
>I see some strange holes here, like /d`/ being the only retroflex stop; /C/
>not having a voiced counterpart (some how the same doesn't bother me about
>/X\/); and having no palatal plosives, but having palatal nasals, laterals
>and (especially) affricates. I'm also a bit disturbed by the presence of
>/l_0/ without /r\`_0/ (but that's just silliness on my part), and also the
>lack of /5/.
>
>Comments? Questions? Ridicule?
I don't think most of those problems are that problematic.
Lack of palatal stops? Well, I'd be sorely tempted to analyse [cC)] and
[J\j\)] as filling the palatal stop positions /c_h/ and /J\/, as basically
it is in Hungarian. /d`/ being the only retroflex stop is a perhaps little
unusual, but I've seen it happen now and again, and neither of your
only-voiceless fricatives bother me either -- these both are the sort which
tend to have approximants for phonemically voiced counterparts. (Maybe [?\]
was lost.) And I see no reason at all that /5/ should be regarded as a gap.
/l_0/ and no other voiceless resonants is weird; yeah, there's no /r\`_0/,
but I find it worse there's no /l`_0 L_0/! Though I guess it could be a
development of the /K/ one might want to see accompanying the /tK/. But
then, where're the lateral obstruents at those other places?
What I think is the strangest, though, is the stop + affricate system -- it
violates pretty hard the dictum that affricates nearly always pattern as
extra places of stops. Why should voiceless stops be aspirated but
voiceless affricates not? (Okay, maybe 'cause the affricate release ate the
aspiration somehow.) What happened to the breathy-voiced aspirates?
On which topic, that system of phonation contrasts could probably exist, if
unstably; I'd expect to see it looking about like Western Armenian in a few
centuries. (And it's good that there's both /h\/ and breathy stops.)
If the affricates weren't there I'd think the fricative system overstuffed
too; but they are, and so the stops and the fricatives do have nearly the
same number of places.
Here's how I'd lay it out.
m n n` J N
p(_h) pf) t(_h) ts) tK tS) cC) k(_h) q(_h)
b bv) d dz) d` dZ) J\j\) g G\
b_t d_t g_t
p\ f T s l_0 S C x X X\ h
B v D z (l) Z (j) G R h\
l l` L
j w
Alex
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
8a. Angosey turns 12
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 5:54 pm ((PDT))
September 3rd has arrived, the Angosey new year and the de-facto birthday of
the language. This is the last year in which more of my life has been lived
before Angosey than after. Next year, the language will be exactly half my
age, after which my life with Angosey will be longer than my life without.
Kinda strange to think about.
Anyway, around this time twelve years ago, I was a quiet, awkward 7th grader
dabbling in substitution codes. On September 3rd, 1998, I had what can be
best described as a "Dante and Beatrice moment" when I realized I had a
crush on a girl in my grade. I discovered that I could create a
pronounceable rendition of her name using one of the codes I developed.
Sometime soon after, I wrote the sentence that later became "Ayryea zakayro
al Gayaltha", deriving "zakayro" (the word for beauty) from her encrypted
name.
But somewhere in the dyslexia of inadvertently inventing a new language, I
determined that her Angosian name was Algihaltha (later becoming al
Gayaltha) and that the phrase meant "Algihaltha is beautiful". Well, if
"zakayro" is "beauty" and "Algihaltha" is her name, then "Ayryea" must mean
"is".
But there was a problem: languages were always SVO (or so I thought in my
English-centric ignorance). I circumlocuted by deciding that "ayryea" meant
"of [blank] is [blank]": Of beauty is Algihaltha.
After those first few months, my ardor faded, and Angosey lay dormant. I
wrote the phrase "Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha" once in a while for memory's
sake, but that was it. But a year later, I developed an Angosian
dictionary. And then, a sophomore in high school, I derived a grammar
based on VSO and began using the language in earnest.
A few people have seen "Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha" on my email signature
and in other places, and have asked me what it meant. They are usually met
with a pained silence: it means *something* but it long ago lost its
reference to the person who inspired it. It still literally means "Al
Gayaltha is beautiful" but who Al Gayaltha is, and why she is beautiful, is
immaterial.
The meaning of the phrase is more truly tied to the language itself.
Angosey owes its fundamental grammatical properties to that sentence I wrote
in seventh grade. In a sense, the phrase encapsulates my entire experience
of the language, as something cryptic and personal.
And so I write:
Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha
al gamay reshadatheo ngah.
Of beauty is Algayaltha,
the queen of memory.
These are my thoughts on this disappointingly hurricane-less night.
Danny
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
8b. Re: Angosey turns 12
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" scott.h...@telus.net
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:08 pm ((PDT))
Happy birthday to Angosey and congratulations to you on maintaining a
conlang for so long. It sounds to me that al Gayaltha would be the matriarch
of the people, someone to look back to as a central historic person. The
Romans had Romulus and Remus. You have al Gayaltha.
S
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Daniel Bowman
Sent: September 3, 2010 6:53 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Angosey turns 12
September 3rd has arrived, the Angosey new year and the de-facto birthday of
the language. This is the last year in which more of my life has been lived
before Angosey than after. Next year, the language will be exactly half my
age, after which my life with Angosey will be longer than my life without.
Kinda strange to think about.
Anyway, around this time twelve years ago, I was a quiet, awkward 7th grader
dabbling in substitution codes. On September 3rd, 1998, I had what can be
best described as a "Dante and Beatrice moment" when I realized I had a
crush on a girl in my grade. I discovered that I could create a
pronounceable rendition of her name using one of the codes I developed.
Sometime soon after, I wrote the sentence that later became "Ayryea zakayro
al Gayaltha", deriving "zakayro" (the word for beauty) from her encrypted
name.
But somewhere in the dyslexia of inadvertently inventing a new language, I
determined that her Angosian name was Algihaltha (later becoming al
Gayaltha) and that the phrase meant "Algihaltha is beautiful". Well, if
"zakayro" is "beauty" and "Algihaltha" is her name, then "Ayryea" must mean
"is".
But there was a problem: languages were always SVO (or so I thought in my
English-centric ignorance). I circumlocuted by deciding that "ayryea" meant
"of [blank] is [blank]": Of beauty is Algihaltha.
After those first few months, my ardor faded, and Angosey lay dormant. I
wrote the phrase "Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha" once in a while for memory's
sake, but that was it. But a year later, I developed an Angosian
dictionary. And then, a sophomore in high school, I derived a grammar
based on VSO and began using the language in earnest.
A few people have seen "Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha" on my email signature
and in other places, and have asked me what it meant. They are usually met
with a pained silence: it means *something* but it long ago lost its
reference to the person who inspired it. It still literally means "Al
Gayaltha is beautiful" but who Al Gayaltha is, and why she is beautiful, is
immaterial.
The meaning of the phrase is more truly tied to the language itself.
Angosey owes its fundamental grammatical properties to that sentence I wrote
in seventh grade. In a sense, the phrase encapsulates my entire experience
of the language, as something cryptic and personal.
And so I write:
Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha
al gamay reshadatheo ngah.
Of beauty is Algayaltha,
the queen of memory.
These are my thoughts on this disappointingly hurricane-less night.
Danny
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
9.1. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" s...@saizai.com
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:39 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:38 AM, David Johnson
<lethketa-boa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I guess this situation is one we will encounter more as time goes on.
> Perhaps the LCS needs to develop a policy?
I think that it would be no problem for the LCS to provide permanent
online hosting for:
a) any conlang community service or project
b) archival versions of conlang-related websites of people who are
permanently incapacitated (e.g. by death)
c) members' conlang-related websites
But I think that Jim's response is very apt. This is not something
that the LCS per se can do much about other than to provide the web
space.
It's not magic. Ultimately some individual needs to find and put
effort into this kind of archiving. In this case David's done it, but
I don't think it's reasonable to expect that he'll always be able to.
So "policy" is, perhaps, a bit off.
On the positive side, pretty much any of you could assist in this if
you wanted to. Doesn't require much more than a basic understanding of
website maintenance. (Better yet if you know how to use ssh and wget.)
This is generally the case, of course. Quite simply there are only a
small handful of people (mainly David, Don, Sylvia, & I) who actually
do the work needed for the LCS to operate, and we don't have much
extra capacity. If we had more people contributing their time, we
could do more stuff with less individual effort. It's not something
that just materializes, and we don't have enough income (yet?) to
actually hire someone to do it.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (32)
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