There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Professional naming
From: David McCann
2.1. Re: Naming systems
From: Lars Finsen
2.2. Re: Naming systems
From: Peter Bleackley
2.3. Re: Naming systems
From: Peter Bleackley
3a. Re: Saltani Phonology/Phonotactics
From: Leila Kalomi
4a. Re: OT: Conlang Camping Trip (WAS: making an oral conlang)
From: Roger Mills
4b. Re: OT: Conlang Camping Trip (WAS: making an oral conlang)
From: Gary Shannon
4c. Re: OT: Conlang Camping Trip (WAS: making an oral conlang)
From: Lars Finsen
5a. Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
From: taliesin the storyteller
5b. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
From: Nathan Unanymous
6a. Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
From: Adam Walker
6b. Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
From: Garth Wallace
7a. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
From: Adam Walker
7b. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
From: Alex Fink
7c. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
From: Adam Walker
8a. Re: Graavgaln phonology -- the vowels
From: Adam Walker
9. Graavgaaln grammar
From: Adam Walker
10a. Theoretical language
From: Nathan Unanymous
10b. Re: Theoretical language
From: Veoler
10c. Re: Theoretical language
From: Patrick Dunn
10d. Re: Theoretical language
From: Alex Fink
10e. Re: Theoretical language
From: Roger Mills
10f. Re: Theoretical language
From: Roger Mills
10g. Re: Theoretical language
From: Roman Rausch
11.1. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Messages
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1a. Re: Professional naming
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 8:01 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 2010-09-05 at 13:35 +0200, Mechthild Czapp wrote:
> I personally do not think that everything companies do is bad or dark. and
> such things, well, do not seem evil to me. The names just makes me squirm.
> Not only the -ent names but the other ones as well. I personally would not
> name anything like that. But then, seeing that the times I was allowed to
> give names to software the results were... interesting*... I might be the
> wrong person to judge it. To me it seems corporate names sound very alike.
> The exceptions were named quite a while ago. But this pseudo-latin,
> pseudo-greek, pseudo-sophistication... I am not sure how it is supposed to
> coney anything but: We are a bland company which thinks it is unique but is
> EXACTLY like its 5 major competitors.
My favourite case is the British Post Office, who changed their name to
Consignia. After 15 months of derision, they changed back to Royal Mail.
The whole exercise cost £2bn (at a time when they were loosing £1bn a
year) and led to the resignation of the CEO.
I liked the old days when companies' names just told you what they did
or who they were: Gascoigne Pees, The Self-Opening Metal Box Company,
etc.
Messages in this topic (4)
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2.1. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 8:13 am ((PDT))
Den 5. sep. 2010 kl. 01.02 skreiv Sai Emrys:
> Not at all. I said that I don't wish to be affiliated with Welsh - as
> an instance of that I don't wish to be affiliated with *any* such
> thing.
>
> I have nothing for or against it.
Well, I will respect your choice whatever you do, of course, but I
kind of like Emrys. Its origin and meaning of course is known to you.
It's not just my celtophilic tendency, although despite its origin it
does have a nice Welsh ring. In fact when I got to know you, I
thought Sai was Welsh, too. But it's not found in Welsh name lists.
How did you actually come by it?
I do applaud your wish to disaffiliate yourself from nationality.
Nationalism and all the human tendency to form groups hostile to
other groups is what I loathe the most about our species. Myself I
like to think in global perspectives instead of national and local,
to rise above the pettiness of most human thought. On the other hand
I am addicted to the colour and flavour of all the human
nationalities and their linguistic expressions of all kinds,
including names. I don't particularly enjoy being Norwegian, although
I enjoy the landscape and the weather when it is like today. But I
have always had a fondness for my name. I think it's a nice, angular
frame of reference by which I navigate through the world.
I had my bad moments as a kid, but enough good ones to be able to
identify myself and the colours and flavours I carry about me with
goodness in some way. I have noticed other people with different
attitudes towards the bits and pieces of their identities, which I
reckon they formed in their childhoods, along with the bits and
pieces themselves. Some jump from identity to identity, never seeming
to find any satisfaction, others think they are the centres of their
universes no matter what. All contribute to make up the colours and
flavours of the society and occasionally they all manage to
accomplish something good or something bad in their own way.
That's what it is, I suppose.
LEF
Messages in this topic (27)
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2.2. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:54 am ((PDT))
staving Lars Finsen:
> Den 4. sep. 2010 kl. 05.22 skreiv Sai Emrys:
>
>> The second is that I feel no particular national/cultural/familial
>> affiliation. (This is partly the reason for wanting to drop "Emrys" as
>> well; I dislike the implied Welsh affiliation.)
>
> Anything wrong about welshness? If not for anything else the Welsh ought
> to be admired linguistically for the resistance they are putting up
> against English.
>
The connotations of Emrys to me are not merely Welsh, but more
specifically mythopoetic. In some versions of the Arthurian mythos, it's
the surname of Merlin.
Pete
Messages in this topic (27)
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2.3. Re: Naming systems
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 2:44 am ((PDT))
staving Sai Emrys:
> Also, FWIW, I would still keep both former names as "doing business
> as" names - which is e.g. how I currently can accept checks made out
> to "Sai Emrys". So for such purposes I'd still have options.
>
> In particular re. payroll: I'm mainly a consultant, and that's
> actually what I do. The client will write on my check whatever I want
> them to and not particularly care.
>
It occurs to me that in English Common Law, you can use any name you
like, without the need to formally change it, as long as it is not done
with intent to deceive.
Pete (who has at various times been known as Quantum, Pete The Mad
Scientist, and Dr Peter James Bleackley)
Messages in this topic (27)
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3a. Re: Saltani Phonology/Phonotactics
Posted by: "Leila Kalomi" leila_kal...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 8:37 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 00:20:29 -0400, Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>I agree - basic sounds + laterals.
>
>However, your romanization system isn't uniform.
>
>I would suggest c /ts/
I had considered doing something with /ts/ (most likely <z>, though) but I
decided I'd leave it like that.
>rl /4_l/, or rh
Those both sound good; I think I'll go with <rh>
>sl /K/, or sh
I can't have <sl> for /K/ since there is the potential sequence /sl/, and
<sh> is too strongly associated with /S/.
>l /l/,
As I noted in my reply to Larry, I do have this sound with this
romanization; I just forgot it in the initial email.
>h /x/,
I think I'll do this! I had it as <j> because of Spanish and to avoid
ambiguity with, say /lx/ versus /K/. But I'm thinking of forbidding /sound +
x/ combinations, so that would be moot.
>ng /N/
This was <nh> as a holdover from when there existed <sh> /S/ and <th> /T/,
and I wanted to keep all my digraphs using <h>. Fairly pointless now, so
I'll change that.
Thanks for the critique!
Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: OT: Conlang Camping Trip (WAS: making an oral conlang)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 9:12 am ((PDT))
--- On Sat, 9/4/10, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 4, 2010, at 3◊41 PM, Arthaey
> Angosii wrote:
>
> > I have to point out that a CONLANG list camping trip
> would be
> > *awesome*. Anyone else? Lots of great camping to be
> had on the West
> > Coast... :)
>
>
> I would be so totally down for that if it didn't involve
> the word
> "camping". What about a CONLANG list trip? Say, we all
> find
> a wealthy donor who sends us on a cruise to Jamaica, or
> the
> like--full service, meals supplied, functional bathrooms,
> air
> conditioning, the whole bit. Doesn't that sound nice?
>
> Camping, on the other hand, sounds...dusty.
>
Hmmm, a man after my own heart..... I was going to comment that a Conlang
camping trip sounds a bit like herding cats, but never mind....
My only experience with anything resembling camping was 5 days of bivouac in
the army, Feb. 1957, in the woods of Georgia (US). Thank Gu it didn't rain or
snow. Not really bad (aside from the latrine arrangements)---and I realize
modern camp grounds aren't at quite that primitive level. Still, I'd like to
think I could get a proper filet of sole almandine with a nice Chablis....
Lots of B&Bs in Saugatuck (and elsewhere)-- maybe we could take one over for a
long weekend or something. Not quite as expensive as a cruise.
(When I worked for a publisher, some of us agitated to hold our semi-annual
sales meetings on a cruise ship. Management ignored us.)
Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: OT: Conlang Camping Trip (WAS: making an oral conlang)
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 12:18 pm ((PDT))
Between Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and my own natural childhood preference
for the wild outdoors, as a boy I spent most of my waking hours in the
forest. It was only after my parents moved to Los Angeles when I was
13 and there were no forests to be found anywhere that I began to
spend any appreciable time among my "civilized" peers. Now, at age 65,
I've finally retired to an area with abundant forest wilderness. There
is nothing quite so refreshing as removing oneself from "civilization"
for a few weeks two or three times a year. Simplify, simplify.
--gary
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- On Sat, 9/4/10, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 4, 2010, at 3◊41 PM, Arthaey
>> Angosii wrote:
>>
>> > I have to point out that a CONLANG list camping trip
>> would be
>> > *awesome*. Anyone else? Lots of great camping to be
>> had on the West
>> > Coast... :)
>>
>>
>> I would be so totally down for that if it didn't involve
>> the word
>> "camping". What about a CONLANG list trip? Say, we all
>> find
>> a wealthy donor who sends us on a cruise to Jamaica, or
>> the
>> like--full service, meals supplied, functional bathrooms,
>> air
>> conditioning, the whole bit. Doesn't that sound nice?
>>
>> Camping, on the other hand, sounds...dusty.
>>
>
> Hmmm, a man after my own heart..... I was going to comment that a Conlang
> camping trip sounds a bit like herding cats, but never mind....
>
> My only experience with anything resembling camping was 5 days of bivouac in
> the army, Feb. 1957, in the woods of Georgia (US). Thank Gu it didn't rain or
> snow. Not really bad (aside from the latrine arrangements)---and I realize
> modern camp grounds aren't at quite that primitive level. Still, I'd like to
> think I could get a proper filet of sole almandine with a nice Chablis....
>
> Lots of B&Bs in Saugatuck (and elsewhere)-- maybe we could take one over for
> a long weekend or something. Not quite as expensive as a cruise.
>
> (When I worked for a publisher, some of us agitated to hold our semi-annual
> sales meetings on a cruise ship. Management ignored us.)
>
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (8)
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4c. Re: OT: Conlang Camping Trip (WAS: making an oral conlang)
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 12:35 pm ((PDT))
Den 5. sep. 2010 kl. 21.17 skreiv Gary Shannon:
> Between Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and my own natural childhood preference
> for the wild outdoors, as a boy I spent most of my waking hours in the
> forest.
Lots of great people have said the same, Pierre Curie and Humphry
Davy, for example. The forest is a very creative place.
LEF
Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 9:38 am ((PDT))
*Dons CALS-hat*
Support for describing exactly which sounds a (spoken) language has is
being added to CALS. The phoneme-data is from UPSID at
http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid.html
but UPSID was before unicode and used ASCII symbols and not very ipa-ish
descriptions of the sounds. Thus, it has been necessary to figure out
which UPSID ASCII symbol goes with which IPA symbol.
This is where help is needed! Stop by the sound-lab at
http://cals.conlang.org/sound/
and comment (you'll need to log in) on those sounds whose IPA symbols or
descriptions are off, or missing. That way the IPA can be made more
correct. Currently only the most common sounds (occurs in ten or more
natural languages) are shown, to get things off the ground.
When this is done, x-sampa, cxs and whatever can be somewhat easily
added with the help of an IPA-to-whatever converter, and when that is
done there is a point to connecting the sounds to the conlangs.
t.
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
Posted by: "Nathan Unanymous" nathanms...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 10:32 pm ((PDT))
I just made an account today, and when I signed out and signed back in it
said:
"""""""""""""""""
Forbidden (403)
CSRF verification failed. Request aborted.
Help
Reason given for failure:
CSRF token missing or incorrect.
In general, this can occur when there is a genuine Cross Site Request Forgery,
or when Django's CSRF mechanism has not been used correctly. For POST
forms, you need to ensure:
The view function uses RequestContext for the template, instead of Context.
In the template, there is a {% csrf_token %} template tag inside each POST
form that targets an internal URL.
If you are not using CsrfViewMiddleware, then you must use csrf_protect on
any views that use the csrf_token template tag, as well as those that accept
the POST data.
You're seeing the help section of this page because you have DEBUG = True in
your Django settings file. Change that to False, and only the initial error
message will be displayed.
You can customize this page using the CSRF_FAILURE_VIEW setting.
"""""""""""""
I'm not much of a techno person - so help please.
Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 10:53 am ((PDT))
I am combining my responses to Patrick and Garth here:
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wrote:
> > Now I will give some explination of these horrid symbols and what I think
> > *might* be their representatins in a Khoisanist approach:
> >
> > 0_0 is a kiss, a rounded bilabial click -- Koisanist might use w! (??) --
> no
> > IPA
>
> Circle with a dot in it? If you wanted to emphasize the rounding, you
> could put a comma under it.
Well, as I understand it, circle-with-a-dot-in-it is specifically not
rounded, i.e. more like an <m> than a kiss -- a lip smack, if you will.
> > 0\ is standard CSX for a bilabial click -- K uses m! (IIRC) -- IPA uses
> > target
>
> Ahh, yeah.
>
> > |\ is standard CSX for dental click -- K uses t-with-dental-subscript!
> > (IIRC) -- IPA uses pipe
> > !\ is standard CSX for alveolar (some term this retroflex) click -- K
> uses
> > t! (IIRC) -- IPA uses !
> > =\ is standard CSX for palatal click -- K uses c! (tired of typing IIRC)
> --
> > IPA uses double crossed dagger (or double crossed pipe, not sure)
>
> Looks like a pipe to me.
What does?
> > |\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double
> pipe
> > |\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
> > else would use!
>
> maybe a superscript small L.
Maybe.
> > =`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the
> tongue
> > contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
>
> I can't do that without pain.
Why do I hear things like this so often. Is my tongue really that
gymnastic?
> > =\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA
> probably
> > says no such beast exists
>
> Yeah, no sign for that in IPA. One of the problems I have with it is
> that a click uses suction in the mouth and there isn't much space once
> I restrict at the velum to create enough suction for anything but a
> sucking/choking sound. Again, a bit of pain.
>
What? No, it's a loud, medium-high pitched, hollow sound. No pain is
involved. It can be done many times in rapid succession.
> > =\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
> > crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
>
> I'm not sure this is physically possible.
The my description is off, because I do it quite easily and loudly.
> >
> > I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however
> shoddy
> > my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
> > other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
>
> I'd have to hear them. Hell, I'd probably have to see a spectrogram
> of them. :) Not that that'd do much good; I'm awful at reading
> spectrograms.
>
>
Wish I could oblige on both counts.
>
> > Any way this bizarre mess is the total phoneme enventory of the language.
> > Suggestions for better descriptions and/or representations of the
> phonemes
> > would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Well, if it's the whole phoneme inventory, you can do without the !'s,
> it seems to me.
What do you mean"do without the !'s"? That's part of the Khoisanist
transscription method, just like the \ is part of the CXS transscription.
> >
> > Next post I will show the revamped romanization I plan to use now, which
> > will necessatate a name change.
> >
> > Adam
> >
>
> I look forward to seeing some of the grammar.
>
> Heh heh. So do I actually. I can't find any grammatical notes on this
language. If I ever had any, I seem to have lost them. All I can come up
with is the list of phonemes with a horrifying "romanization" and a list of
character names. I'll have to come up with a suitable insectiod grammar
soon.
On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Garth Wallace <gwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:14 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > |\ is standard CSX for dental click -- K uses t-with-dental-subscript!
> > (IIRC) -- IPA uses pipe
> > !\ is standard CSX for alveolar (some term this retroflex) click -- K
> uses
> > t! (IIRC) -- IPA uses !
>
> ! is postalveolar, I think. You'd probably use the pipe for both, but
> with the dental diacritic (flat-side-up underbracket in IPA, _d in
> CXS) applied to the first one.
Ah, I believe you are right. So !_d\ and !\ might need to be seprate
phonemes.
> > =\ is standard CSX for palatal click -- K uses c! (tired of typing IIRC)
> --
> > IPA uses double crossed dagger (or double crossed pipe, not sure)
> > |\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double
> pipe
> > |\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
> > else would use!
>
> What do you mean "bilateral"? I don't think there's ever a distinction
> between a lateral in which the air passes on only one side of the
> tongue vs. one where it passes on both. I'm not even sure how you'd
> accomplish the former.
Well, by bi-lateral, I mean suction released on both sides of the tongue in
a sloppy suction-stopped kind of noise vs. the giddap tsch-tsch sound of the
simple lateral release. as for there never being a distinction between
simple lateral and my bilateral in human languages -- that is why I am
finding it hard to give a phonetic transcription of the sounds in use here.
> > =`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the
> tongue
> > contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
>
> I think you'd just use the postalveolar click symbol.
>
I think you're right. /!`\/ is a better symbol.
> > =\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA
> probably
> > says no such beast exists
> > =\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
> > crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
>
> I don't think these can exist. The place of articulation must be
> between the airstream mechanism (velar, for clicks) and the outside
> air, or no sound is produced.
They do exist. I make them. I just figure my description is off the mark.
> > I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however
> shoddy
> > my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
> > other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
> >
> > =\_G is formed by raising the tongue into position for /k/ while lowering
> > the glottis to make a vacuum. The "k" closure is released and a loud
> > "popping" sound ensues.
> >
> > =\_? is made by forming a closure as for />\/ while lowering the glottis
> to
> > make a vacuum. The closure is released and a sound like that used in
> > cartoons to represent drinking (only unvoiced) is produced.
>
> Sounds like you're describing a glottal ingressive airstream.
> Voiceless implosives or reverse ejectives in other words. There aren't
> dedicated IPA symbols for these anymore, but you can apply the
> voicelessness diacritic to the implosive series.
>
No. Not a voiceless implosive, I don't think. =\_G (which I now think
would be better written as !_G\) is just as different from an implosive /k/
as is |\ from implosive /t/. the POA's are the same, but the implosives
have audible intakes of air after them, these sounds don't; they just pop
like any click. They aren't breathy. They don't work from the diaphram.
I'm not sure how to better describe these sounds.
For /!-G\/ (or whatever the trasscription should be) position the tongue as
for /k/. Lower the glottis. Release the oral closure. The resulting sound
is a popping noise. That is what I am trying to write.
For !_?\ the same process happens but it is the uvular region where the
tongue makes contact with the roof of the mouth and the resultan sound is
significantly lower in pitch.
I really thing phonetic discriptions only work for sounds you already know
how to make, or have at least heard.
Adam
Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 12:04 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am combining my responses to Patrick and Garth here:
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wrote:
>
>> > Now I will give some explination of these horrid symbols and what I think
>> > *might* be their representatins in a Khoisanist approach:
>> >
>> > 0_0 is a kiss, a rounded bilabial click -- Koisanist might use w! (??) --
>> no
>> > IPA
>>
>> Circle with a dot in it? If you wanted to emphasize the rounding, you
>> could put a comma under it.
>
>
> Well, as I understand it, circle-with-a-dot-in-it is specifically not
> rounded, i.e. more like an <m> than a kiss -- a lip smack, if you will.
Yes, but the diacritic specifically makes it rounded.
>> > =`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the
>> tongue
>> > contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
>>
>> I can't do that without pain.
>
> Why do I hear things like this so often. Is my tongue really that
> gymnastic?
Maybe he's misunderstanding your description? It looked to me like you
were just explaining what a retroflex is (bottom of the tip of the
tongue touches the roof of the mouth), but if he read it that the
entire underside of the tongue should touch, that's basically
impossible without severing the frenulum.
> On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Garth Wallace <gwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:14 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > |\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double
>> pipe
>> > |\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
>> > else would use!
>>
>> What do you mean "bilateral"? I don't think there's ever a distinction
>> between a lateral in which the air passes on only one side of the
>> tongue vs. one where it passes on both. I'm not even sure how you'd
>> accomplish the former.
>
> Well, by bi-lateral, I mean suction released on both sides of the tongue in
> a sloppy suction-stopped kind of noise vs. the giddap tsch-tsch sound of the
> simple lateral release. as for there never being a distinction between
> simple lateral and my bilateral in human languages -- that is why I am
> finding it hard to give a phonetic transcription of the sounds in use here.
I'm still not sure what you mean by it. If I cram my tongue over to
one side of my mouth so the air only passes on one side, it doesn't
really sound any different.
Maybe you're coarticulating a lateral click with a non-lateral? I can
do that, though not dependably. It's sort of a wet sucking sound. Or
maybe you've got a distincton between alveolar and palatal lateral
clicks?
>> > =\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA
>> probably
>> > says no such beast exists
>> > =\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
>> > crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
>>
>> I don't think these can exist. The place of articulation must be
>> between the airstream mechanism (velar, for clicks) and the outside
>> air, or no sound is produced.
>
> They do exist. I make them. I just figure my description is off the mark.
>
>
>> > I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however
>> shoddy
>> > my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
>> > other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
>> >
>> > =\_G is formed by raising the tongue into position for /k/ while lowering
>> > the glottis to make a vacuum. The "k" closure is released and a loud
>> > "popping" sound ensues.
>> >
>> > =\_? is made by forming a closure as for />\/ while lowering the glottis
>> to
>> > make a vacuum. The closure is released and a sound like that used in
>> > cartoons to represent drinking (only unvoiced) is produced.
>>
>> Sounds like you're describing a glottal ingressive airstream.
>> Voiceless implosives or reverse ejectives in other words. There aren't
>> dedicated IPA symbols for these anymore, but you can apply the
>> voicelessness diacritic to the implosive series.
>>
> No. Not a voiceless implosive, I don't think. =\_G (which I now think
> would be better written as !_G\) is just as different from an implosive /k/
> as is |\ from implosive /t/. the POA's are the same, but the implosives
> have audible intakes of air after them, these sounds don't; they just pop
> like any click. They aren't breathy. They don't work from the diaphram.
> I'm not sure how to better describe these sounds.
Voiceless implosives shouldn't be breathy. The lungs aren't involved.
Voiced implosives sometimes have some exhalation involved AIUI, but
voiceless ones have full closure at the glottis.
> For /!-G\/ (or whatever the trasscription should be) position the tongue as
> for /k/. Lower the glottis. Release the oral closure. The resulting sound
> is a popping noise. That is what I am trying to write.
>
> For !_?\ the same process happens but it is the uvular region where the
> tongue makes contact with the roof of the mouth and the resultan sound is
> significantly lower in pitch.
Yeah, those are definitely both implosives. If you're creating a
pressure differential by closing and lowering the glottis, that's
glottalic ingressive, by definition.
Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 11:04 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 23:32:46 -0700, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I don't think most of those problems are that problematic.
>
> Lack of palatal stops? Well, I'd be sorely tempted to analyse [cC)] and
> [J\j\)] as filling the palatal stop positions /c_h/ and /J\/, as basically
> it is in Hungarian. /d`/ being the only retroflex stop is a perhaps little
> unusual, but I've seen it happen now and again, and neither of your
> only-voiceless fricatives bother me either -- these both are the sort which
> tend to have approximants for phonemically voiced counterparts. (Maybe
> [?\]
> was lost.) And I see no reason at all that /5/ should be regarded as a
> gap.
>
>
Okay.
> /l_0/ and no other voiceless resonants is weird; yeah, there's no /r\`_0/,
> but I find it worse there's no /l`_0 L_0/! Though I guess it could be a
> development of the /K/ one might want to see accompanying the /tK/. But
> then, where're the lateral obstruents at those other places?
>
>
Yeah, I was thinking of dropping /l_0/ in favor of /K/.
> What I think is the strangest, though, is the stop + affricate system -- it
> violates pretty hard the dictum that affricates nearly always pattern as
> extra places of stops. Why should voiceless stops be aspirated but
> voiceless affricates not? (Okay, maybe 'cause the affricate release ate
> the
> aspiration somehow.)
Not sure I follow you here.
> What happened to the breathy-voiced aspirates?
> On which topic, that system of phonation contrasts could probably exist, if
> unstably; I'd expect to see it looking about like Western Armenian in a few
> centuries. (And it's good that there's both /h\/ and breathy stops.)
>
>
What do you mean by "Whatt happened to the breathy-voiced aspirates"?
> If the affricates weren't there I'd think the fricative system overstuffed
> too; but they are, and so the stops and the fricatives do have nearly the
> same number of places.
>
> Here's how I'd lay it out.
>
> m n n` J N
> p(_h) pf) t(_h) ts) tK tS) cC) k(_h) q(_h)
> b bv) d dz) d` dZ) J\j\) g G\
> b_t d_t g_t
> p\ f T s l_0 S C x X X\ h
> B v D z (l) Z (j) G R h\
> l l` L
> j w
>
> Alex
>
Interesting. I like that layout, but what happened to the rhotics?
Adam
Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 7:00 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 11:02:41 -0700, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What I think is the strangest, though, is the stop + affricate system -- it
>> violates pretty hard the dictum that affricates nearly always pattern as
>> extra places of stops. Why should voiceless stops be aspirated but
>> voiceless affricates not? (Okay, maybe 'cause the affricate release ate
>> the
>> aspiration somehow.)
>
>Not sure I follow you here.
I think Garth put it better, when he raised the idea of classifying
aspiration as a release (see that side of the thread)
>What do you mean by "Whatt happened to the breathy-voiced aspirates"?
I meant it fiachronically: whatever it was that the breathy-voiced stops
came from, why were there no breathy-voiced affricates formed in the same
process?
>Interesting. I like that layout, but what happened to the rhotics?
Whoops, just overlooked them. They'd just be another row, and I guess I'd
put your oddball /r\v)/ as the labiodental one. Maybe it came from an old
[B\] or something.
Alex
Messages in this topic (7)
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7c. Re: Graavgaaln phonolgy -- the consonants
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 7:31 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 11:02:41 -0700, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> What I think is the strangest, though, is the stop + affricate system --
> it
> >> violates pretty hard the dictum that affricates nearly always pattern as
> >> extra places of stops. Why should voiceless stops be aspirated but
> >> voiceless affricates not? (Okay, maybe 'cause the affricate release ate
> >> the
> >> aspiration somehow.)
> >
> >Not sure I follow you here.
>
> I think Garth put it better, when he raised the idea of classifying
> aspiration as a release (see that side of the thread)
>
>
ah. Now I folow.
> >What do you mean by "Whatt happened to the breathy-voiced aspirates"?
>
> I meant it fiachronically: whatever it was that the breathy-voiced stops
> came from, why were there no breathy-voiced affricates formed in the same
> process?
>
>
Ah. Perhaps the breathy-voiced aspirates collapsed with their voiced
counterparts. Musta been an ugly proto-language.
> >Interesting. I like that layout, but what happened to the rhotics?
>
> Whoops, just overlooked them. They'd just be another row, and I guess I'd
> put your oddball /r\v)/ as the labiodental one. Maybe it came from an old
> [B\] or something.
>
> Alex
>
That makes sense. IIRC that sound just started popping up in words so I
included it as a last minute addition. Hard to recall for sure 15 years
after the fact. I sure wish I had documented these early langs better.
Adam
Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: Graavgaln phonology -- the vowels
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 11:17 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- On Fri, 9/3/10, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > In looking back at my old stuff on Graavgaln I find
> > the phonology just
> > > doesn't quite work form me anymore. Here is what
> > it used to be:
> > >
> > > high unround:
> > >
> > > /i/, /I/, /1/, /U_c/, /M/ romanized as [ii]. [i],
> > [î], [ü], [üü]
> /i:/ /i/ /1/ /ü/ /ü:/
> > >
> > > high round:
> > >
> > > /y/, /Y/, /u\/, /U/, /u/ romanized as <˙˙>, etc
> /y:/ /y/ /u\/ /u/ /u:/
>
> > > mid unround:
> > >
> > > /e/, /E/, /@\/, /V/, /7/ romanized as <ee>,
> > <e>, <ę>, <ö>, <öö>
> /e:/ /e/ /@\/ /ö/ /ö:/
> > > mid round:
> > >
> > > /2/, /9/, /8/, /O/, /o/ romanized as <řř>,
> > <ř>, <â>, <o>, <oo>
> > >
> > > low unround:
> > >
> > > /a/, /A/ romanized as <ć>, <aa>
> /a/ /a:/
> > >
> > > low round:
> > >
> > > /&\/, /Q/ romanized as <ĺ>, <a>]
> a-ring, a-ring+long (for some reason can't do numeric codes)
>
> Note that this leaves all the central vowels short only, not unnatural I
> think.
>
This analysis is quite nice. I believe the actual realizations of the short
vowels are as I have described them, but analyzing them this way makes a
nice neat chart which real life linguists sem to prefer to the messyness of
reality. ;-)
> > >
> > > Leaving aside the cludgy romainzation for the moment,
> > what specific
> > > complaints arise about this (admitedly large) vowel
> > inventory?
> > >
>
> Aside from the unnatural quantity...
>
> Could some of these (perhaps you already did this) be reduced to long ::
> short pairs? (as suggested above) Still a big phonemic inventory,
> however...but not much worse than English. Could some be allophones?
> Historical origins might be a problem. But Gwr has 18 vowels (basic 9,
> long/short) + central /r/ [3r\]-- historical origins are accounted for, but
> it involves reducing diphthongs, or (in some cases) whole words to
> monosyllables....
>
>
English *is* outrageous with its vowels. As for allophones, no, I believe I
have minimal pairs quite a number of them in a rather small vocabulary
which I have preserved. I do like the long/short thing though. Maybe I
will go with that and loose the superflous qualities.
Adam
Messages in this topic (3)
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9. Graavgaaln grammar
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 11:36 am ((PDT))
Here's what I know about the grammar of Graavgaaln:
Word order is SOV.
Pronouns and nouns show case. Object, Benefactive and Instrumental are
attested and marked with suffixes. Locative is handled with a postposition.
Number is marked on nouns.
Possessor-possessed. Possession is shown with the word <nezh> which comes
between the two persons/objects being related.
Verbs show number, person and tense and causation.
Coordination of NPs uses the word <lî> between the terms. Coordination of
clauses uses the word <nezh> both before and after the second clause.
I need to go back over my few texts and see what other information I can
extract.
Adam
Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Theoretical language
Posted by: "Nathan Unanymous" nathanms...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 4:17 pm ((PDT))
I was thinking about Arabic and their vowel changes, and I thought - what about
consonant changes? Is there such a language with roots having same places of
articulation, and morphing by changing the consonants?
E.G.
/kitapu/ = book
/gidabu/ = books
/xiTafu/ = book's
/GiDavu/ = books'
or something along those lines.
Messages in this topic (7)
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10b. Re: Theoretical language
Posted by: "Veoler" veo...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 5:05 pm ((PDT))
Have you seen http://ithkuil.net/ ?
2010/9/6 Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com>:
> I was thinking about Arabic and their vowel changes, and I thought - what
> about
> consonant changes? Is there such a language with roots having same places of
> articulation, and morphing by changing the consonants?
>
> E.G.
> /kitapu/ = book
> /gidabu/ = books
> /xiTafu/ = book's
> /GiDavu/ = books'
>
> or something along those lines.
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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10c. Re: Theoretical language
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 6:01 pm ((PDT))
Sure. Celtic languages have consonant mutations. Not quite to the
extent you describe, but it exists.
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was thinking about Arabic and their vowel changes, and I thought - what
> about
> consonant changes? Is there such a language with roots having same places of
> articulation, and morphing by changing the consonants?
>
> E.G.
> /kitapu/ = book
> /gidabu/ = books
> /xiTafu/ = book's
> /GiDavu/ = books'
>
> or something along those lines.
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur
Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (7)
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10d. Re: Theoretical language
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 6:25 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 19:15:23 -0400, Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>I was thinking about Arabic and their vowel changes, and I thought - what about
>consonant changes? Is there such a language with roots having same places of
>articulation, and morphing by changing the consonants?
>
>E.G.
>/kitapu/ = book
>/gidabu/ = books
>/xiTafu/ = book's
>/GiDavu/ = books'
>
>or something along those lines.
Nothing so systematic and throughgoing (ttbomk), but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_mutation has a good overview of the
instantiation of this sort of thing in several languages.
Alex
Messages in this topic (7)
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10e. Re: Theoretical language
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 9:09 pm ((PDT))
>On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 19:15:23 -0400, Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I was thinking about Arabic and their vowel changes, and I thought - what
about
>>consonant changes? Is there such a language with roots having same places of
>>articulation, and morphing by changing the consonants?
>>
>>E.G.
>>/kitapu/ = book
>>/gidabu/ = books
>>/xiTafu/ = book's
>>/GiDavu/ = books'
>>
>>or something along those lines.
>
MCL Kash can do something similar: historically, as well as synchronically,
it involves infixing a nasal:
*tik_h)as > /tixas/ to glimpse
*ti-N-khas > /tikas/ to see; **ti-N-kas > /tiNgas/ look at, examine (other
dialects would have /tiNkas/ or sim.) Presumably an intensifier of some
sort. It can work in the other direction too, deleting the nasal, though I
don't have any exs. offhand--
hypothetical **tambak (modern */tambak/) > **tabak (modern */tavak/)
Messages in this topic (7)
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10f. Re: Theoretical language
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2010 9:10 pm ((PDT))
> 2010/9/6 Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com>:
> > I was thinking about Arabic and their vowel changes,
> and I thought - what about
> > consonant changes? Is there such a language with roots
> having same places of
> > articulation, and morphing by changing the
> consonants?
> >
> > E.G.
> > /kitapu/ = book
> > /gidabu/ = books
> > /xiTafu/ = book's
> > /GiDavu/ = books'
> >
> > or something along those lines.
MCL Kash can do something similar: historically, as well as synchronically, it
involves infixing a nasal:
*tik_h)as > /tixas/ to glimpse
*ti-N-khas > /tikas/ to see; **ti-N-kas > /tiNgas/ look at, examine (other
dialects would have /tiNkas/ or sim.) Presumably an intensifier of some sort.
It can work in the other direction too, deleting the nasal, though I don't have
any exs. offhand--
hypothetical **tambak (modern */tambak/) > **tabak (modern */tavak/)
Messages in this topic (7)
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10g. Re: Theoretical language
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru
Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 4:38 am ((PDT))
>E.G.
>/kitapu/ = book
>/gidabu/ = books
>/xiTafu/ = book's
>/GiDavu/ = books'
>or something along those lines.
I had the same idea for a conlang - mutation through the whole word, similar
to the way vowel affection influences all the vowels, but I have never
elaborated it.
A related idea would be to have some kind of sonant harmony, where palatal
/j/, /L/, /J/ do not mix with /w/, /L\/, /m/. So one would have /kjetJe/,
but /kwatma/ (which could then also influence the stops) or something like that.
Messages in this topic (7)
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11.1. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 6, 2010 12:47 am ((PDT))
On 5 September 2010 01:06, Patrick Michael Niedzielski <
patrickniedziel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi! I would love to help out anyway I can.
>
> > > What specific projects do we need more volunteers working on?
> >
> > Off the top of my head:
> >
> > * creating a nice template for the Fiat Lingua journal (almost done w/
> > copyedit; this'll be needed very soon)
> Depending on the software, I can most certainly do this. I'm good with
> LaTeX, but I can also use Scribus on GNU/Linux.
>
>
Ditto here. I actually proposed my help already via the Fiat Lingua e-mail
address, but got no reply :( . I've created LaTeX classes in the past, and
although I'm new to Scribus, I've already done some semi-professional design
with it (semi-, meaning that the designs are getting paid. I'm just not the
one getting the money ;) . My husband is, he designed the graphical
material, I just put it together on a document). Making a simple but
effective template for the journal shouldn't be that difficult (as long as
someone tells me what style is wanted). Scribus can also export all assets
needed for a document (including fonts), so portability shouldn't be a
problem.
> > * graphics design for schwag (e.g. assembling the "fiat lingua"
> translations)
> I would love to do this.
>
> That's a bit over my head :/ .
> > * writing a better guide for newbies / outsiders, explaining all the
> > stuff we take for granted that people know (different goal than e.g.
> > the LCK)
> Heh...I'd actually love to have one of these myself... ^_^"
>
>
Mmm... Difficult, but not impossible. I might want to have a look at that,
time permitting.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (37)
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