There are 20 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
From: Patrick Michael Niedzielski
2a. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: Douglas Koller
2b. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: Adam Walker
2c. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: David McCann
2d. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: Tony Harris
2e. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: Dana Nutter
2f. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: Alex Fink
2g. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: Eric Christopherson
2h. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
From: R A Brown
3a. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
From: taliesin the storyteller
3b. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
From: Daniel Nielsen
3c. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3d. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
From: John Vertical
4a. Re: Luggnaggian
From: Daniel Nielsen
5a. Re: Pluractional Verbs
From: Anthony Miles
6a. Cheyoon (Mermish) Orthography
From: Anthony Miles
6b. Re: Cheyoon (Mermish) Orthography
From: John Vertical
7. Going slowmail (and to grad school)
From: Sai Emrys
8. Internally Headed Relative Clauses
From: neo gu
9a. Re: Unnamed Language Phonology
From: Matthew Turnbull
Messages
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1.1. Re: The 2010 Smiley Award Winner: amman iar
Posted by: "Patrick Michael Niedzielski" patrickniedziel...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 8:54 am ((PDT))
On 2010-09-07 08:24, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
>> Don is the main Journal organizer at this point, so please email him
>> (or better, publishing-edit...@conlang.org, which'll go to all the
>> editors, including both of us) about any day-to-day issues.
>>
>>
> Will do! First, maybe Patrick and I should have a conversation :) .
Hey,
I'll email you privately in about an hour, and then we can schedule a
time to talk.
It's a pleasure to be working with you!
Cheers,
Patrick
--
Humm and Strumm <http://hummstrumm.blogspot.com/>, a Free Software 3D
adventure game for both Windows and *NIX.
freeSoftwareHacker(); <http://freesoftwarehacker.blogspot.com/>, a blog
about Free Software, music, and law.
Messages in this topic (42)
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2a. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 9:13 am ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Christopherson" <ra...@charter.net>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 12:33:57 AM
Subject: Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
On Sep 6, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
> Just as it says on the tin: I've just realised I have no idea how the
> English rule that initial <x-> is /z-/ might've come about.
I asked about that a while back, but I've looked everywhere and can't find it.
I think Ray responded, but I don't remember exactly what he said; I think part
of it was that it was pronounced /gz/ initially for a while.
Since initial /gz/ is a foreigner in a foreign land in English, that it would
reduce to /z/, as it does for most English words in initial <x> is not as big
surprise. But just to throw it in the mix, the name "Xavier" can be pronounced
as if it were pronounced like "exactly" (and all the bad puns that Vincent
Price as Egghead regaled on Batman ("eggcellent", "eggzemplary", etc.)). So,
many a Catholic educational institution, at least here, come off as St.
Xavier's /Eg'z...@rz/. The 40's-50's Latino entertainer Xavier Cugat is
normally /Eg'z...@r/, maybe /eg'zaviEr/ in a pinch. Left alone, "Xavier" might
conjure up /'z...@r/. Javier Bardem went for the "j", so he's spared all this.
Kou
Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 9:23 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Christopherson" <ra...@charter.net>
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 12:33:57 AM
> Subject: Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
>
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
>
> > Just as it says on the tin: I've just realised I have no idea how the
> > English rule that initial <x-> is /z-/ might've come about.
>
> I asked about that a while back, but I've looked everywhere and can't find
> it. I think Ray responded, but I don't remember exactly what he said; I
> think part of it was that it was pronounced /gz/ initially for a while.
>
> Since initial /gz/ is a foreigner in a foreign land in English, that it
> would reduce to /z/, as it does for most English words in initial <x> is not
> as big surprise. But just to throw it in the mix, the name "Xavier" can be
> pronounced as if it were pronounced like "exactly" (and all the bad puns
> that Vincent Price as Egghead regaled on Batman ("eggcellent",
> "eggzemplary", etc.)). So, many a Catholic educational institution, at least
> here, come off as St. Xavier's /Eg'z...@rz/. The 40's-50's Latino
> entertainer Xavier Cugat is normally /Eg'z...@r/, maybe /eg'zaviEr/ in a
> pinch. Left alone, "Xavier" might conjure up /'z...@r/. Javier Bardem went
> for the "j", so he's spared all this.
>
> Kou
>
Don't forget Dr. Xavier of the X-Men, also pronounced as above.
Adam
Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 9:56 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 2010-09-07 at 09:52 +0100, Peter Bleackley wrote:
> Note that French seems to be more tolerant of odd initial clusters in
> Greek borrowings (eg /psikOloZi:/). How is "xylophone" pronounced in French?
A lot of the French clusters are spelling pronunciations from the 18th
and 19th centuries. In the Middle Ages and Renascence they wrote "saume"
instead of "psaume", "asolu" for "absolu", "avenir" for "advenir",
"ecellent" for "excellent", "essample" for "example".
Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 11:12 am ((PDT))
On the other hand, I have a coworker whose two sons are named Xavier and
Xander and she pronounces them as /'z...@r\/ and /'z...@r\/.
On 9/7/2010 12:11 PM, Adam Walker wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Douglas Koller<lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Eric Christopherson"<ra...@charter.net>
>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 12:33:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: USAGE: how did English initial<x> come to be /z/?
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Just as it says on the tin: I've just realised I have no idea how the
>>> English rule that initial<x-> is /z-/ might've come about.
>>>
>> I asked about that a while back, but I've looked everywhere and can't find
>> it. I think Ray responded, but I don't remember exactly what he said; I
>> think part of it was that it was pronounced /gz/ initially for a while.
>>
>> Since initial /gz/ is a foreigner in a foreign land in English, that it
>> would reduce to /z/, as it does for most English words in initial<x> is not
>> as big surprise. But just to throw it in the mix, the name "Xavier" can be
>> pronounced as if it were pronounced like "exactly" (and all the bad puns
>> that Vincent Price as Egghead regaled on Batman ("eggcellent",
>> "eggzemplary", etc.)). So, many a Catholic educational institution, at least
>> here, come off as St. Xavier's /Eg'z...@rz/. The 40's-50's Latino
>> entertainer Xavier Cugat is normally /Eg'z...@r/, maybe /eg'zaviEr/ in a
>> pinch. Left alone, "Xavier" might conjure up /'z...@r/. Javier Bardem went
>> for the "j", so he's spared all this.
>>
>> Kou
>>
>>
> Don't forget Dr. Xavier of the X-Men, also pronounced as above.
>
> Adam
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2e. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "Dana Nutter" deinx.nx...@sasxsek.org
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 12:25 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just as it says on the tin: I've just realised I have no idea how the
> English rule that initial <x-> is /z-/ might've come about.
>
> There's nothing about /ks-/ motivating voicing; for that matter, Greek had
> initial /ps-/ too, and we're perfectly happy to leave that voiceless in
> borrowings. There's no earlier-established context I can think of in which
> <x> can be /z/ that it might have spread from; <x> can be /gz/
> intervocalically in Latinate words, but is that really enough? I thought it
> might have something to do with the initial loans passing through German,
> where of course original initial *s- has become /z-/ and the pairing <s->
> /z-/ is productive, but as far as I can make out (correct me,
> German-speakers) initial <x-> borrowings get /ks-/ there...
Only a half-edumicated guess but possibly something inherited from
French where <x> carries the same pronunciation?
----------------------------------------
Dana Nutter
"A wise man believes only in lies, trusts only in the absurd, and
learns to expect the unexpected."
Messages in this topic (14)
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2f. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 3:23 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:29:26 +0200, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
<tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 7 September 2010 08:34, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, this has been discussed before and I did say that way back in the
>> 1950s our Classics master always pronounced initial ξ (xi) in Greek as /gz/.
>> A little investigation shows that this was the earlier custom.
>>
>> Also one of our francophone list members - IIRC it was Christophe - pointed
>> out that initial <x> in Greek loan words is still pronounced /gz/ in French.
Hm, okay, missed that earlier thread. Thanks. So French is the proximal
culprit, and it does have to do with the medial voicing.
>> Medial <ps> is _never_ voiced; on the other hand medial <x> from words of
>> Latin origin is often voiced, e.g. _exam_, _exist_ etc.
>
>Same in French, except in some names like _Bruxelles_ (where it can be
>pronounced /ks/ or /s/ depending on the person). In French, as in English
>AFAIK, the voiceless /ks/ is forced by adding a <c> after the <x>, as in
>"exciter".
That still wants an ultimate explanation. I suppose that all it is from
here is that these <x>s will have largely been in learned words of the sort
likely to have pronunciations reconstructed from their spellings -- and so
even if /ps/ and /ks/ clusters voiced uniformly in some contexts at some
point, written <ps> availed the restoration of /ps/ more strongly than
written <x> did anything.
On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 15:49:40 +0000, Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
>But just to throw it in the mix, the name "Xavier" can be pronounced as if
>it were pronounced like "exactly" (and all the bad puns that Vincent Price
>as Egghead regaled on Batman ("eggcellent", "eggzemplary", etc.)). So,
>many a Catholic educational institution, at least here, come off as St.
>Xavier's /Eg'z...@rz/.
Okay, maybe that's unremarkable epenthesis, but it could well be *slight
involuntary shudder* the same rationale that makes Yreka, California be
/waIr\ik@/ and so on -- how in the world do such things seem compelling to
anyone!?
Alex
Messages in this topic (14)
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2g. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 10:26 pm ((PDT))
On Sep 7, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 15:49:40 +0000, Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> But just to throw it in the mix, the name "Xavier" can be pronounced as if
>> it were pronounced like "exactly" (and all the bad puns that Vincent Price
>> as Egghead regaled on Batman ("eggcellent", "eggzemplary", etc.)). So,
>> many a Catholic educational institution, at least here, come off as St.
>> Xavier's /Eg'z...@rz/.
>
> Okay, maybe that's unremarkable epenthesis, but it could well be *slight
> involuntary shudder* the same rationale that makes Yreka, California be
> /waIr\ik@/ and so on -- how in the world do such things seem compelling to
> anyone!?
Wow, before I got to the pronunciation, I was sure you were going to say it was
/j@"rik@/, like how some people pronounce Yvonne /j@"van/. (Not to mention
Yvgeny on Delocated.)
Messages in this topic (14)
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2h. Re: USAGE: how did English initial <x> come to be /z/?
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 2:04 am ((PDT))
On 07/09/2010 22:38, Alex Fink wrote:
[snip]
>
> That still wants an ultimate explanation. I suppose that
> all it is from here is that these<x>s will have largely
> been in learned words of the sort likely to have
> pronunciations reconstructed from their spellings -- and
> so even if /ps/ and /ks/ clusters voiced uniformly in
> some contexts at some point, written<ps> availed the
> restoration of /ps/ more strongly than written<x> did
> anything.
<ps> occurred mainly (only?) in learned words and indeed the
written <ps> must surely militate against any tendency to
voice the combination.
<x> however is a different matter. As a single letter there
was nothing in spelling to militate voicing in intervocalic
positions. As Greek ξ was uniformly transcribed as <x> it
was treated the same way.
As I observed, if the Emperor Claudius had been successful
in getting ɔ added to the alphabet to represent Classical
Latin [ps], then Greek ψ would have been rendered <ɔ>. I
have no doubt that <ɔ> would have been subject to voicing in
similar positions to <x>. But his alphabet reforms died
with him; <ps> continued to be used and the <p> ensured the
combination stayed voiceless :)
Thinks: if <ɔ> had caught on, would Esperanto, which renders
Latin <x> as <kz>, have rendered Latin <ɔ> as <bz>? ;)
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 15:49:40 +0000, Douglas
> Koller<lao...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> But just to throw it in the mix, the name "Xavier" can
>> be pronounced as if it were pronounced like "exactly"
>> (and all the bad puns that Vincent Price as Egghead
>> regaled on Batman ("eggcellent", "eggzemplary", etc.)).
>> So, many a Catholic educational institution, at least
>> here, come off as St. Xavier's /Eg'z...@rz/.
>
> Okay, maybe that's unremarkable epenthesis, but it could
> well be *slight involuntary shudder* the same rationale
> that makes Yreka, California be /waIr\ik@/ and so on
..and soldiers of WWI render Ypres as "wipers" :)
Yep - long years ago when I was a youngster, _Xavier_ was
always AFAIK pronounced /'zeIvi@(r)/. I've noticed a
tendency in popular speech to pronounce initial <x> in
learned words as /Eks/ or /Egz/; I've even heard
/Eg'z...@foʊn/! I assume this is a false 'spelling
pronunciation', just like /waIr\ik@/ and "wipers". In the
case of <x> it is possibly helped by the popular _Xmas
/'e...@s/.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 12:04 pm ((PDT))
On 2010-09-07 08:32, David Peterson wrote:
> On Sep 5, 2010, at 9◊35 AM, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>
>> When this is done, x-sampa, cxs and whatever can be somewhat easily
>> added with the help of an IPA-to-whatever converter, and when that is
>> done there is a point to connecting the sounds to the conlangs.
>
> So how close are we to the final step?
I've started converting the remaining 700 or so upsid entries to ipa
(now all with a freq. of 5 or higher is shown), but I don't have any
ipa-to-whatever converters yet. It'd be cool to have a, say cxs to
ipa-converter in python, that way one could add sounds to one's language
by keying them in without having to resort to fancy keyboards. Such a
sound entry metjod is quick to make, too, but ulitmately it'd be nice to
be able to click on the ipa chart or have an online ipa keyboard for entry.
The book has arrived at the library so I'll probably pick it up this
week. Then I can start guessing whatever I am to do with the "r-sounds"
and the creaky voiceless stuff...
HM
Messages in this topic (10)
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3b. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 5:11 pm ((PDT))
>
> I get the idea that it's the same for the so-called "r-sound", basically, a
> symbol for any rhotic when the exact quality is not known. Naturally, such
> symbols are going to be a pain to translate into IPA, but could be useful
> nonetheless. What should we do with them?
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
How about this: choose the otherwise most frequent representation in
the segment class, with a mark denoting this is an approximation, until the
ensuing comments reach a conclusion? I know that I would prefer complete
statistics over 100%-accurate but lower-sample ones.
Messages in this topic (10)
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3c. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 1:42 am ((PDT))
On 8 September 2010 02:08, Daniel Nielsen <niel...@uah.edu> wrote:
> How about this: choose the otherwise most frequent representation in
> the segment class, with a mark denoting this is an approximation, until the
> ensuing comments reach a conclusion? I know that I would prefer complete
> statistics over 100%-accurate but lower-sample ones.
>
Having an approximation mark is actually a very good idea, It seems UPSID
allows approximations only for some segments (rhotics, uncertainty about
dental or alveolar consonants, and that's about it), but given the wild
conlangs out there, it might be worth having a general approximation mark
that anyone can use on another segment to say: "well, that's the closest
IPA's got, but the actual segment is not exactly like that", with a comment
section to explain the difference.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (10)
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3d. Re: Need help with phonetics/phonology at CALS
Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 4:48 am ((PDT))
>On 8 September 2010 02:08, Daniel Nielsen wrote:
>
>> How about this: choose the otherwise most frequent representation in
>> the segment class, with a mark denoting this is an approximation, until the
>> ensuing comments reach a conclusion? I know that I would prefer complete
>> statistics over 100%-accurate but lower-sample ones.
>
>Having an approximation mark is actually a very good idea, It seems UPSID
>allows approximations only for some segments (rhotics, uncertainty about
>dental or alveolar consonants, and that's about it), but given the wild
>conlangs out there, it might be worth having a general approximation mark
>that anyone can use on another segment to say: "well, that's the closest
>IPA's got, but the actual segment is not exactly like that", with a comment
>section to explain the difference.
>--
>Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
Also with some conlangs not even the author might yet be sure about what the
canonical pronunciation is.
Capital letters (T, D, R
) seem to be used for arkiphonemes fairly commonly.
Another alternativ is to just mark the variant phones (eg. [t_d ~ t]), but
that can get ugly fast ([n_d ~ n_d_0 ~ n ~ n_0 ~ N ~ N_0]
)
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: Luggnaggian
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 1:26 pm ((PDT))
Knowing nothing else about the language, here's my linguistically
untechnical notion (influenced by English) for the second sentence,
reordered to mimic English:
mir-: my
-plush: tongue
Yalerick: cargo
prastrad: lying in
Dwuldum: mouth
drin: of-an-anchor-tossed-from-the-main-body (in this case oneself)
Fluft: friend
Looking online, I've found about half the texts seem to use the
capitalization given here, and about half only capitalize the first letter.
Assuming this capitalization, I notion that nouns are capitalized unless
attached to a possessive ("mirplush"; in which case it is no longer
considered an entity standing on its own and worthy of capitalization).
Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Pluractional Verbs
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 1:31 pm ((PDT))
IIRC, pluractionality is initially associated with the Patient, but the
iterative/distributive/etc. senses can easily drag it into the transitive
forms.
My plan for N�ŋifi Fas�xa is that the pluractional forms do not exist in
Proto-
NF, appear as "proper" pluractionals in Old NF (i.e., only plural and only
associated with Patients). By NF, however, the iterative/distributive senses
are dominant and the pluractionals have become plain reduplicated verbs (If
you go look at the NF language samples, even reduplication is a lot shorter
than the full formal words!).
Before I forget: the NF grammar is up at FrathWiki and so is the root
dictionary:
http://wiki.frath.net/N%C3%A1%C5%8Bifi_Fas%C3%BAxa
http://wiki.frath.net/N%C3%A1%C5%8Bifi_Fas%C3%BAxa_Thematic_Lexicon
ONF (which I'm wondering if it wasn't ergative, which _would_ affect the use
of verbal agreements) formed reduplicated words by taking the underlying
post-tonic radical syllable (using a stress rather than pitch as a measurement)
and inserting it between 1) the tonic radical syllable if the tonic radical
syllable
is CV 2) the (still tonic) vowel of the tonic radical syllable and the
consonant
of the tonic radical syllable if the tonic radical syllabe is VC. This is
different,
but actually much simpler than Washo, which has a bad case of ANADEW with
its interactions between syllable structure, stress, vowel length, and vowel
coloring. So if you take the root /tunasi/:
["tu'.na.si] > ["tu'.najs] > ["tu.na.najs]
[tu."na'js] > 0
["twa.nis] > ["twa.ni.nis]
["u't.najs] > ["u'.nat.najs]
["u'.ta.nis] > ["u'.ta.ni.nis]
By NF, the reduplication applied to the surface spoken syllable rather than the
underlying radical syllable, and could occur in the singular of verbs and nouns
(insofar as nouns and verbs are separate in NF!). A singular reduplication
means something like "a step (in a series of steps originally described by the
pluractional verb)The pitch (and therefore the primary stress) shifted to the
appropriate syllabic vowel (before diphthongization and possible high-pitch-
deletion) for the form (antepenultimate for nouns/active verbs, penultimate for
adjectives/passive verbs). Thus:
tu'nasi > tuna'nasi
tuna'si > tuna'sisi
tuansi > tua'sinsi
tua'nsi > tuasi'nsi
tu'nais > tunainais
tuna'is > tunaina'is
tuanis > tua'ninis
tua'nis > tuani'nis
u'tnasi > una'tnasi
utna'si > utnasi'si
u'tansi > uta'tansi
uta'nsi > utasi'nsi
u'tnais > unaitnais
utna'is > unaitna'is (by analogy)
u'tanis > uta'tanis
uta'nis > utani'nis
Other NF matters (which can be split off, but I want to consolidate messages):
1. The phoneme percentages of NF concern me: ŋ [N] is overrepresented, and
probably always will be, given its presence in the roots for 'language', and a
variety of pronouns. In the constrcution of new roots, however, what is a
typical percentage distribution of /ptkmnŋfsxaiu/?
2. What would be "typical" children's mistake in a language with this
phonology?
Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Cheyoon (Mermish) Orthography
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 1:39 pm ((PDT))
I've put up the revised orthography for Cheyoon (Mermish) at FrathWiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/Cheyoon
Any advice on problems, such as inherently unpronounceable sounds, would be
appreciated. But each consonant does need a corresponding vowel for the
grammar to work.
Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Cheyoon (Mermish) Orthography
Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 4:56 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 16:36:09 -0400, Anthony Miles wrote:
>I've put up the revised orthography for Cheyoon (Mermish) at FrathWiki:
>
>http://wiki.frath.net/Cheyoon
>
>Any advice on problems, such as inherently unpronounceable sounds, would be
>appreciated.
No such thing here, tho some of the sounds are going to be a bit difficult
to tell apart (nasal voiceless vowels in particular, I think).
As for the orthography, smallcaps <ʏ ɴ̃ ᴍ> would IMO look better (but that
option is a bit problematic for <W Ŋ>).
>But each consonant does need a corresponding vowel for the
>grammar to work.
Interesting! I've seen some attempts at this idea, but not really as
complete as here.
The pairs /i:/ ~ /g/ and /a~/ ~ /ŋ/ seem a bit off however, as it is /u/
that the velar POA corresponds most closely to, of the cardinal vowels.
Similarly, when long /i: u:/ correspond to stops, long /a:/ corresponding to
zero onset was a bit unexpected (but follows from that being the voiceless
counterpart to /ʔ/, I suppose). /h/ corresponding to short /a_0/ but /ħ/ to
mid /a·_0/ seems also backwards; pharyngeals definitly sound stronger and
more fricated than glottals.
Given the premise, I'd probably have done something like this:
/i i· i: i~/ ~ /j ʝ ɟ ɲ/, or /j ʒ dʒ ɲ/ (or even /j z d n/?)
/a a· a: a~/ ~ /0 ʕ g ŋ/ (and voiceless: /ʔ ħ k ŋ_0/), or with uvulars: /0 ʁ
ɢ ɴ/
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (2)
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7. Going slowmail (and to grad school)
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" s...@saizai.com
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 1:50 pm ((PDT))
I'm still getting mail, but I'm not checking 99% of posts to list and
probably won't be for a long time. So if something should get my
attention, please email me personally - or better yet, IM me.
(http://saizai.com for contact info.)
I've just moved to Chicago and start grad school tomorrow.
(Technically the semester doesn't start for another ~3 weeks, but
there's an intensive linear algebra workshop before then.)
For LCS stuff, address l...@conlang.org and one of us (i.e. David
Peterson, Donald Boozer, Henrik Theiling, Sylvia Sotomayor, or me)
will get back to you. Remind us if we forget, 'cause we don't ignore
people intentionally but emails do get lost occasionally.
Yar,
- Sai
Messages in this topic (1)
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8. Internally Headed Relative Clauses
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 11:39 pm ((PDT))
In G2 relative clauses are internally headed. This means that the head noun of
the phrase appears within the relative clause with the cases appropriate for
that clause; in G2, a resumptive pronoun immediately following the relative
clause has the case appropriate for the matrix clause.
Originally I had the head noun always appear first in the relative clause,
since
the possessor or the whole are usually relativized rather than the possessum
or the part (genitives and partitives precede what they modify). Example
house* in man RP died John sold.
However, this made sentences like this:
dog cat mouse bread ate RP caught RP chased RP I saw.
So now I have the phrases containing the head noun appear right before the
verb of the relative clause:
bread mouse ate RP cat caught RP dog chased RP I saw.
I'm not sure if it solves all the problems though.
* I don't have articles yet and am not sure where they would go.
Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Unnamed Language Phonology
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 8:30 am ((PDT))
what does [ᴙ] stand for again, and are these anything like [ḁʀ̥͡] which I
analysed as a voicing pattern in Jorayn. Because it would be nice to see
natlang precedant for a trilled uvular co-articulation with de voicing,
because Jorayn is supposed to be natlangy. Or maybe they are epiglottal
trills, I'll have to investigate later when my throat stops hurting enough
to pronounce them.
Messages in this topic (7)
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