There are 21 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Pitch-based self-segregating morphology
From: Jim Henry
1b. Re: Pitch-based self-segregating morphology
From: And Rosta
1c. Re: Pitch-based self-segregating morphology
From: maikxlx
2a. Re: Happy St. Hiledgard's Day
From: Roger Mills
2b. Re: Happy St. Hiledgard's Day
From: Jim Henry
3a. Is FrathWiki melting down?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3b. Re: Is FrathWiki melting down?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
4a. Re: Tonogenesis
From: Anthony Miles
4b. Re: Tonogenesis
From: Alex Fink
4c. Re: Tonogenesis
From: Roger Mills
5a. Re: New book
From: Paul Bennett
5b. Re: New book
From: Eric Christopherson
6. NATLANG: How Did Finnish Reclaim Long Mid Vowels?
From: David Peterson
7a. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
From: Donald Boozer
7b. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
From: Jim Henry
7c. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
From: David Peterson
7d. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
From: Jim Henry
7e. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
From: Larry Sulky
7f. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
From: Roman Rausch
8. Sino-Romance in the LLL? (was: Tonogenesis)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
9. Talk Like A Pirate Day
From: Donald Boozer
Messages
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1a. Re: Pitch-based self-segregating morphology
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:29 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 8:49 PM, maikxlx <maik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> - Every vowel segment takes one of two pitches, low or high.
> - Every morpheme ends in a low-pitched vowel; every low-pitched vowel ends a
> morpheme.
> - All the consonants and high-pitched vowels preceding a low-pitched vowel
> are part of that morpheme ended by that vowel.
This is, I reckon, simpler than a lot of other schemes, and perhaps
more aesthetically pleasing than most of those that require
subdividing the phoneme inventory into intial and terminal sets (and
definitely more pleasing than those that require counting phonemes or
syllables!).
> My guess is that high-pitch and low-pitch would end up being distributed
> roughly equally;
That implies that the average morpheme length (in running text, not in
the lexicon) is about 2.
> What's possibly weird is that this SSM relies on two distinct types of
> pitch steps within root morphemes: An upstep at the before the root and a
> downstep near the end. I don't know if any natural language acts quite
> like this.
"at the ..... before the root"
What word is missing there?
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Pitch-based self-segregating morphology
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:46 am ((PDT))
maikxlx, On 18/09/2010 01:49:
> Inspired by the recent "Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating
> morphology" thread, I would like to share a simple SSM that I came up with
> and use in my main (loglang) project:
>
> - Every vowel segment takes one of two pitches, low or high.
> - Every morpheme ends in a low-pitched vowel; every low-pitched vowel ends a
> morpheme.
> - All the consonants and high-pitched vowels preceding a low-pitched vowel
> are part of that morpheme ended by that vowel.
This is reminiscent of Livagian. Every sonorant has H or L tone. Phonological
words consist of a stem followed by a sequence consisting of a suffix and a
string of clitics. Stems are phonotactically unrestricted except that no
segment but the first may have a switching tone (H when the previous sonorant
was L, L when the previous sonorant was H) (and except that, for unrelated
reasons, stems can't begin with nonswitching /r/). The first segment of the
suffix has switching tone. Segments/morphemes within the suffix+clitic sequence
are classified as final/nonfinal in the sequence, so the end of the
phonological word is fully determinate, but the final/nonfinal distinction is
not made by a single simple phonological criterion. The final tone in the
phonological word (H v L) has inflectional significance, indicating certain
aspects of syntactic structure.
The key ingredients of this scheme are:
* Word boundaries are always determinate, even in the case of unknown openclass
stems.
* The phonological shape of stems is (almost) completely unrestricted.
* Stems cannot contrast tonally (except on the initial segment). Tone has an
(almost) entirely inflectional function.
--And.
Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Pitch-based self-segregating morphology
Posted by: "maikxlx" maik...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:49 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Jim Henry <jimhenry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 8:49 PM, maikxlx <maik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > - Every vowel segment takes one of two pitches, low or high.
> > - Every morpheme ends in a low-pitched vowel; every low-pitched vowel
> ends a
> > morpheme.
> > - All the consonants and high-pitched vowels preceding a low-pitched
> vowel
> > are part of that morpheme ended by that vowel.
>
> This is, I reckon, simpler than a lot of other schemes, and perhaps
> more aesthetically pleasing than most of those that require
> subdividing the phoneme inventory into intial and terminal sets (and
> definitely more pleasing than those that require counting phonemes or
> syllables!).
Yes, from trying it myself aloud, this SSM seems intuitive (to me), whereas
some other schemes seem (to me) more suitable for computer parsers. This
SSM came into being when it dawned on me that "letomato" could be parsed:
L H H L = <le tomato> perhaps meaning 'the tomato'
L L H L = <le to mato> perhaps meaning 'the two matos' (whatever a mato is)
Despite having zero experience with pitch accent and tonal languages, I have
found it rather easy to utter this minimal pair with a little practice, and
really easy to hear the contrast. I do wonder though what the eventual
effect would be of tonal sandhi and similar processes in actual use.
>
> > My guess is that high-pitch and low-pitch would end up being distributed
> > roughly equally;
>
> That implies that the average morpheme length (in running text, not in
> the lexicon) is about 2.
Yes, that seems right. The final average is I believe partially dependent
on the number of distinct roots. A large number of roots would bring more
HHL, HHHL, HHHHL, etc. roots into play, whereas a rich derivational
morphology would imply fewer long roots and greater use of one-syllable L
affixes.
Right now I am working with a large, mostly a_posterori latinate vocab with
no "sub-root" morphology (i.e. each L, HL, HHL etc. morpheme is in principle
unanalyzable) simply because I want to concentrate on other aspects of the
language. Such a scheme has its pros e.g. the ability to swallow
international and scientific vocabulary with really little fuss.
There is also the potential of mixing the pitch scheme with a sub-root
morphology where every "syllaboid" is a morpheme that can be compounded into
a longer root. (A syllaboid is what I call a consonant or cluster including
any preceding coda followed by a vowel nucleus). Thus this SSM could
approximate Morneau's semiroot+classifier scheme (which Morneau revamped
several times, apparently never satisfied with it) where the semiroots would
all be H and the final classifier would be L. Classifiers and semiroots
could be interchanged by changing pitch.
This SSM could also be adapted to a LoCCan language where much of the
finagling with consonant clusters and similar morphological fuss could be
eliminated.
> > What's possibly weird is that this SSM relies on two distinct types of
> > pitch steps within root morphemes: An upstep at the before the root and a
> > downstep near the end. I don't know if any natural language acts quite
> > like this.
>
> "at the ..... before the root"
>
> What word is missing there?
>
Sorry, replace "at the" with "just".
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Happy St. Hiledgard's Day
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:53 am ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 9/17/10, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 17, 2010, at 1â31 PM, Donald
> Boozer wrote:
>
> > Today is the Feast Day of St. Hildegard of Bingen Day
> .... the unofficial saint
> > of conlanging. I'm planning on writing a Conlanging
> Librarian blog post
> > proposing Sept. 17 as a kind of conlanging holiday
> analogous to St. Patrick's
> > Day and Valentine's Day, but I wanted to wish everyone
> a Happy St. Hilde's Day
> > before it came to an end.
>
> So, should we do anything special on St. Hildegard's Day?
> Coffee and grammar's
> a good start. But shouldn't we participate in rampant
> commercialism somehow, so
> that in years to come, we can say, "St. Hildegard's Day
> used to be about the
> conlanging!"
>
No, I think that comes later. Some irreverent soul once said that we'd know
that Martin Luther King Day had really entered public concsciousness when we
start hearing commercial announcements like "He had a dream...and we're having
a dream of a sale !!!
Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Happy St. Hiledgard's Day
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:09 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Donald Boozer <donaldboo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Have a chorzta* St. Hilde's Day!
>
> (*"Sparkling"...the only festive Lingua Ignota word I could find in a pinch)
I thought I remembered reading in Sarah's book that Linga Ignota (as
documented) consisted entirely of nouns?
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Is FrathWiki melting down?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:18 am ((PDT))
Hallo!
I have recently observed that more and more FrathWiki pages are
disappearing - there is no error message, but thay simply won't
load. Some pages which were still there yesterday are gone today.
This looks like a corrupted database in which errors spread from
node to node. Is FrathWiki melting down, as Langmaker did a few
years ago?
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Is FrathWiki melting down?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:15 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 18:59:42 +0200, I wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> I have recently observed that more and more FrathWiki pages are
> disappearing - there is no error message, but thay simply won't
> load. Some pages which were still there yesterday are gone today.
> This looks like a corrupted database in which errors spread from
> node to node. Is FrathWiki melting down, as Langmaker did a few
> years ago?
It now seems that the troubles have mostly abated, though a few
pages (such as Melroch's user page) are still broken. Most of
FrathWiki works the way it should. Let's hope that the Langmaker
disaster does not repeat there.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Tonogenesis
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:59 am ((PDT))
So this system is okay?
>aL > a1
>a?V > a? > a2
>as > a3
>at > a4
>aN > a~1
I didn't design it with vocalic length in mind. I just extrapolated from the
data
on Middle Chinese in "Ancient Languages of the World". I'm trying to extract a
Sino-Romance language, so I _have_ to have a phonological solution to -al, -
ar endings. So the extra length of the resonants (l,r,m), rather than any other
quality would produce a high tone?
If polysyllabic words tend to smear pitch over all syllables, that's a problem;
I
can't reduce every important word in Latin to a bisyllabic one with only one
step, but my ultimate goal is to reach a form that looks (and mostly sounds)
like Mandarin using a diachronic process. My Latin speakers left the Republic
far too early for a full-scale Vulgar Latin syncope.
So perhaps the GMP looks something like this:
1. Syncope of unstressed syllables (animum > anmum, imperium > mperyum>
beyum, sperat > *sperat)
2. Development of tones (see above) (anmum > am1mu1, beyum > be1yu1,
sperat > spe1ra4)
3. Reduction of remaining consonant clusters (mostly #sC, maybe #NC)
(spe1ra4 > phe1ra4)
But, as you can tell, this is not my area of expertise, but I want to get it
right
since it's my LLL candidate. Maybe the speakers inherited a reduced
vocabulary from their soldier-fathers and repaired it with an analytic
structure? I do want to be careful to not replicate <i/>in toto</i> European
Romance tongues.
Messages in this topic (21)
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4b. Re: Tonogenesis
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:45 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:57:42 -0400, Anthony Miles <mamercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>So this system is okay?
>
>>aL > a1
>>a?V > a? > a2
>>as > a3
>>at > a4
>>aN > a~1
>
>I didn't design it with vocalic length in mind. I just extrapolated from
the data
>on Middle Chinese in "Ancient Languages of the World". I'm trying to extract a
>Sino-Romance language, so I _have_ to have a phonological solution to -al, -
>ar endings. So the extra length of the resonants (l,r,m), rather than any other
>quality would produce a high tone?
Length influencing tone is one tool you can use, anyway. I'm not sure
whether it's more natural to do it with the syllable weight or just the
vowel length. Both are probably reasonable; it may depend on what you
postulate the tone-bearing unit is (syllable nuclei or mora? or for that
matter words, or something else?)
If you want rid of -l, -r you could change them to -n, or maybe -j or -w.
Thai goes with the -n solution, at least as far as its writing system
attests. I think I've seen an Old Chinese reconstruction with final -r, but
I don't remember whether it turns into -n or -j or maybe either.
>If polysyllabic words tend to smear pitch over all syllables, that's a
problem; I
>can't reduce every important word in Latin to a bisyllabic one with only one
>step, but my ultimate goal is to reach a form that looks (and mostly sounds)
>like Mandarin using a diachronic process. My Latin speakers left the Republic
>far too early for a full-scale Vulgar Latin syncope.
The whole East and Southeast Asian sprachbund where these tonal languages
are common has such reductions all the time. Matisoff has written of a
cycle of development among languages of the area (e.g. <
http://stedt.berkeley.edu/pdf/JAM/TBtones-VietnamAbstr.pdf >) whereby, in
polysyllables, the non-final syllables reduce into sesquisyllables, then
these collapse to monosyllables with initial clusters, then the clusters get
reduced and generate some tones, then these monosyllables get into compounds
and the process starts again. (Though hm, non-final stress like Latin has
might complicate this.)
The Chamic languages are apparently a good example of this process, quickly
converted under adstratum influence on Hainan from the polysyllabic
Austronesian type to monosyllabic and tonal. I think Thurgood wrote about
this, if you want to read up on it.
So if a group of Latin speakers wound up in Southeast Asia, something like
this would probably happen pretty naturally. Is that your scenario, or are
you trying to do this purely internally?
Alex
Messages in this topic (21)
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4c. Re: Tonogenesis
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:22 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sat, 9/18/10, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anthony Miles <mamercu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >So this system is okay?
> >
> >>aL > a1
> >>a?V > a? > a2
> >>as > a3
> >>at > a4
> >>aN > a~1
> >
> >I didn't design it with vocalic length in mind. I just
> extrapolated from
> the data
> >on Middle Chinese in "Ancient Languages of the World".
> I'm trying to extract a
> >Sino-Romance language, so I _have_ to have a
> phonological solution to -al, -
> >ar endings. So the extra length of the resonants
> (l,r,m), rather than any other
> >quality would produce a high tone?
Whether the development of monosyllabic+tone forms in my Gwr lang. is relevant
here or not, I'll throw in my 2cents.....
I think Alex earlier questioned the origin of your intervocalic /?/; I wonder
about that too.
>
> Length influencing tone is one tool you can use,
> anyway. I'm not sure
> whether it's more natural to do it with the syllable weight
> or just the
> vowel length. Both are probably reasonable; it may
> depend on what you
> postulate the tone-bearing unit is (syllable nuclei or
> mora? or for that
> matter words, or something else?)
Gwr developed V: from a number of sources-- e.g. like-V -VhV- sequences. IIRC
they get their tone from the initial C, or in the case of #VhV#, from the
tonality of the vowels (*i, u = higher, a = lower).
As you've probably already determined, it's quite likely only the original
stressed syllable of the Latin form will survive, but surely with modifications.
>
> If you want rid of -l, -r you could change them to -n, or
> maybe -j or -w.
> Thai goes with the -n solution, at least as far as its
> writing system
> attests.
As does Gwr *-l, via > n ult. > N. Final *r (probably [r\]) is another matter,
and usually doesn't survive.
I think I've seen an Old Chinese
> reconstruction with final -r, but
> I don't remember whether it turns into -n or -j or maybe
> either.
Those are logical developments.
>
> >If polysyllabic words tend to smear pitch over all
> syllables, that's a
> problem; I
> >can't reduce every important word in Latin to a
> bisyllabic one with only one
> >step...
Oh yes you can :-))), but it takes many steps.
...but my ultimate goal is to reach a form that
> looks (and mostly sounds)
> >like Mandarin using a diachronic process. My Latin
> speakers left the Republic
> >far too early for a full-scale Vulgar Latin syncope.
Gwr proto-forms could be (C)VCV(C) with stress on either V. Using "A" for the
stressed V, in CACV, the final V drops, tone depends on the initial (with some
oddities). In CACVC, final C > 0 but the unstressed V usually affects the
quality of the stressed penult V. The tone is frequently hi-falling or
low-rising, depending on the consonants involved. In CVCAC, unstr. *a usu.
drops, *i,u metathesize with A to create (usually) falling diphthongs (or long
i:, u:). Then the old intial+medial Cs blend together in a variety of ways to
produce single C phonemes. These also generally end up with the rising/falling
tones.
Just a sample of what happens to the developed initial CCs-- pr > t; br > d;
tt, st, ts > /ts/; dd, ds, sd > /dz/; kr > /tS/; gr > /dZ/ and so on.
There are irreg. cases (dialect borrowings) where in CACV, the final V doesn't
drop, but affects the stressed V. This might produce Latinate forms like
*ama:re > amá:r > @má:r > ma(:)r > however you decide to treat -r; then e.g.
ámo: might > aom > awm or Om likely a falling tone (assuming you keep the
conjugations). amas, amat likely > am > ã; amá:mus maybe > mãs, amá:tis > ma:t
(or /ma:?/ ?, ámant > ã, maybe ãt (or /ã?/ ?) (Personally I think I'd advise
against neutralizing final stops > /?/, it just creates too damn many
homophones.)
Of some possible use: medial r-- in CArV, the final V drops, and the Ar
sequence ends up as the Gwr vowel /r/ ( [3\] IIRC-- the vowel+r sound in "her,
bird" etc.; ditto for CArVC.
Another likelihood-- when vowels coalesce and/or affect, you will end up with a
larger V inventory than the original Latin. Gwr went from a 3 V */i a u/ system
to a 9V /i e æ 1 r a u o O/, which, except for /r/, can be long or short. Plus
a ton of diphthongs.
Hope this helps. If you're comfortable with generative phonology rules, you
might take a look at my paper,
http://cinduworld.tripod.com/gwr_rules.pdf -- it doesn't get into the
development of tones, but does show how the original bisyllables got reduced to
monos. I have several lengthy and complex tables for tonal development, but
alas, they're still works in progress (mostly....)
Snip the rest of Alex's very relevant comments, but Matisoff and Thurgood are
excellent sources for ideas.
Messages in this topic (21)
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5a. Re: New book
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" paul.w.benn...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:53 am ((PDT))
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:56:35 -0400, Eric Christopherson
<ra...@charter.net> wrote:
> On Sep 16, 2010, at 4:33 AM, Paul Bennett wrote:
>
>> The book lists all the phonemes (or reconstructed-probable-phoneme
>> symbols such as hâ, Ä, or Ñ) found in everything from PIE down to the
>> major living modern IE languages, in an order largely inspired by
>> Pullum's "Phonetic Symbol Guide".
>
> Does Ä appear in PIE in some form?
Fricativized (i.e. barred) b, d, and g occur in the traditional symbol set
for reconstructed Germanic languages, and the vowels Ñ and Ñ occur in the
traditional symbol set for reconstructed Slavic languages.
I've been flitting between reducing everything to IPA and sticking to the
traditional symbol sets. Quite honestly, though, what sold me was that
there's no hard guarantees on the IPA values of some of the symbols.
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (11)
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5b. Re: New book
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:35 am ((PDT))
On Sep 18, 2010, at 1:41 PM, Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:56:35 -0400, Eric Christopherson <ra...@charter.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 16, 2010, at 4:33 AM, Paul Bennett wrote:
>>
>>> The book lists all the phonemes (or reconstructed-probable-phoneme symbols
>>> such as hâ, Ä, or Ñ) found in everything from PIE down to the major
>>> living modern IE languages, in an order largely inspired by Pullum's
>>> "Phonetic Symbol Guide".
>>
>> Does Ä appear in PIE in some form?
>
> Fricativized (i.e. barred) b, d, and g occur in the traditional symbol set
> for reconstructed Germanic languages,
Oh, yes. I thought you were talking about the PIE stage.
> and the vowels Ñ and Ñ occur in the traditional symbol set for
> reconstructed Slavic languages.
They also occur in some old reconstructions of PIE to denote some sort of
reduced vowels.
>
> I've been flitting between reducing everything to IPA and sticking to the
> traditional symbol sets. Quite honestly, though, what sold me was that
> there's no hard guarantees on the IPA values of some of the symbols.
True, especially the further back you go.
Messages in this topic (11)
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6. NATLANG: How Did Finnish Reclaim Long Mid Vowels?
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:31 pm ((PDT))
In Finnish, there's a sound change which produced a number of
Finnish's characteristic diphthongs. Specifically:
IPA
eË > ie
Ã¸Ë > yø
oË > uo
SAMPA
e: > ie
2: > y2
o: > uo
Modern Finnish, however, has a full set of long and short vowels,
including long mid vowels.
My question: Where did the modern long mid vowels come from?
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
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7a. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
Posted by: "Donald Boozer" donaldboo...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:26 pm ((PDT))
Jim Henry wrote:
>I thought I remembered reading in Sarah's book that
>Linga Ignota (as documented) consisted entirely of nouns?
For the most part, I believe that's true. One of the few adjectives is
"chorzta"=glittering. Here's the relevant page in Sarah's book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GkuK53bU4_UC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=chorzta&source=bl&ots=gHT6qCPJOI&sig=7Q0QQ2jj1bf4kHh2_Z7vSXu_XGQ&hl=en&ei=-GOVTOrAOcT_lgejkpSnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=chorzta&f=false
Don
Messages in this topic (14)
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7b. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:34 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 9:23 PM, Donald Boozer <donaldboo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jim Henry wrote:
>
>>I thought I remembered reading in Sarah's book that
>>Linga Ignota (as documented) consisted entirely of nouns?
>
> For the most part, I believe that's true. One of the few adjectives is
> "chorzta"=glittering. Here's the relevant page in Sarah's book:
Ah. I think it's that the glossary consists entirely of nouns, but in
the antiphon (the only known LI text) there are a few words not in the
glossary, at least two of which appear to be adjectives (one or more
of them maybe participles?).
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (14)
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7c. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:37 pm ((PDT))
On Sep 18, 2010, at 6â23 PM, Donald Boozer wrote:
> Jim Henry wrote:
>
>> I thought I remembered reading in Sarah's book that
>> Linga Ignota (as documented) consisted entirely of nouns?
>
> For the most part, I believe that's true. One of the few adjectives is
> "chorzta"=glittering. Here's the relevant page in Sarah's book:
I think "Chorzta!" is a good greeting to cry on SHD. But one question:
How is it supposed to be pronounced? As she was German, I can
see the following possible pronunciations:
For "ch", [x], [tÊ], [Ê], [kÊ°], [ç]
For "z" [ts], [z], [s], [dz]
Any ideas?
-David
*******************************************************************
"Sunlü eleÅ¡karez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (14)
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7d. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:41 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 9:35 PM, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think "Chorzta!" is a good greeting to cry on SHD. But one question:
> How is it supposed to be pronounced? As she was German, I can
> see the following possible pronunciations:
>
> For "ch", [x], [tÊ], [Ê], [kÊ°], [ç]
>
> For "z" [ts], [z], [s], [dz]
If I recall correctly, Sarah speculates in her book that "ch" = /x/
and "z" = /ts/. But nobody knows for sure.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (14)
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7e. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" larrysu...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:57 pm ((PDT))
While we're commerating things, don't forget that Sunday is Talk Like a
Pirate Day! Arrrrhhhh!!!!
Messages in this topic (14)
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7f. Re: Happy St Hildegard's Day
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:26 am ((PDT))
>If I recall correctly, Sarah speculates in her book that "ch" = /x/
>and "z" = /ts/. But nobody knows for sure.
The appearance of the cluster _sz_ in words like _Veriszoil_ 'uenter',
_Silisza_ 'sinistra', _Ziriszinthio_ 'maius' suggests that _z_ cannot be
/z/, but is rather /ts/, as in Middle High German.
However, in MHD final _-z_ after vowels and medial _zz_ stands for /s/, as
in _fuoz_ 'foot' and _wazzer_ 'water', nowdays _Fuß_ and _Wasser_. Final
_-z_ is very common in the Lingua Ignota and medial _zz_ also appears
(_Tizzia_ 'alba', _Zizzion_ 'cingulum' etc.), so I suspect that in these
cases it stands for /s/ as well. Final _-z_ might actually be a nominative
ending.
However, final _-is_ also appears from time to time, so I'm not sure.. Maybe
it's just the inconsistency of medieval spelling, like _u/v_ for /u/ in
_Umbleziz_ 'egerda', _Vmbrizio_ 'tectum'.
>While we're commerating things, don't forget that Sunday is Talk Like a
>Pirate Day! Arrrrhhhh!!!!
Aye, me hearty, 'tis what I bin sayin'. But arr, too many landlubbers on the
list, meseems.
Messages in this topic (14)
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8. Sino-Romance in the LLL? (was: Tonogenesis)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:41 am ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:57:42 -0400, Anthony Miles wrote:
> But, as you can tell, this is not my area of expertise, but
> I want to get it right since it's my LLL candidate.
Um, I see no way a Sino-Romance language could plausibly evolve
in the LLL. Keep in mind that the overall history of the world
is *unchanged* from the real world; that is the central assumption
in this project. You'd probably need something like a Roman
conquest of China, or at least an expansion of the Roman Empire
to the boundaries of China, which is of course deep into ATL-land.
(I see no problem with your tonogenesis rules, though. I am
going to use similar rules in a daughter language of Old Albic.)
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Talk Like A Pirate Day
Posted by: "Donald Boozer" donaldboo...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:58 am ((PDT))
Avast ye, it be the official Talk Like a Pirate Day! Smooth sailin' to ye all.
Anyone out there be willin' to take a stab at what "Shiver me timbers!" be in
Esperanto or toki pona or any o' the other conlangery afloat?
Don "Bookish Buccaneer" Boozer
http://library.conlang.org
Twitter: @FiatLingua
Messages in this topic (1)
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