There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. TECH Font Embedding (was Re: Could you take quick look at this?)
From: David Peterson
1b. Re: TECH Font Embedding (was Re: Could you take quick look at this?)
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
1c. Re: TECH Font Embedding (was Re: Could you take quick look at this?)
From: Matthew Turnbull
1d. Re: TECH Font Embedding (was Re: Could you take quick look at this?)
From: David Peterson
2a. Re: Could you take quick look at this?
From: MorphemeAddict
2b. Re: Could you take quick look at this?
From: M.S. Soderquist
3a. Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
3b. Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
From: Gary Shannon
3c. Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
From: M.S. Soderquist
3d. Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
From: René Uittenbogaard
4.1. Re: XSAMPA question
From: John Vertical
4.2. Re: XSAMPA question
From: Douglas Koller
4.3. Re: XSAMPA question
From: Daniel Bowman
4.4. Re: XSAMPA question
From: Mechthild Czapp
4.5. Re: XSAMPA question
From: Matthew Turnbull
4.6. Re: XSAMPA question
From: Peter Bleackley
5a. Re: Through the Language Glass - A Conlanger's Review
From: Douglas Koller
6a. Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
From: Josh Roth
6b. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
From: Mechthild Czapp
6c. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
From: Mechthild Czapp
6d. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
From: Josh Roth
6e. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
6f. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
7a. Re: Doggy translation [was: Through the Language Glass - A Conlanger
From: Matthew Turnbull
8. New Zhyler Orthography Page
From: David Peterson
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. TECH Font Embedding (was Re: Could you take quick look at this?)
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:29 pm ((PDT))
On Oct 21, 2010, at 10◊48 AM, Gary Shannon wrote:
> New page with embedded fonts: http://fiziwig.com/conlang/kunu/
Very cool! How, if I might ask, did you get the font embedding to work?
I saw this bit of CSS:
@font-face {
font-family: "Neoglyphic";
src: url(neoglyphic.eot); /* IE */
src: local("Neoglyphic"), url(neoglyphic.ttf) format("truetype"); /*
non-IE */
}
And the thing that confuses me is what is .eot? Is that a font type? If so,
how do you create it? And is that the only one that IE understands?
Conlang Content in response to Alex's message (which contained
absolutely no conlang content, I might add): In Kamakawi, the vowels
of monosyllabic content words are lengthened to satisfy a weight
requirement for content words. Thus, the genitive particle /li/ has a
short vowel, [li], but the word /li/, "to get", which comes from the same
source, has a long vowel: [li:].
-David
*******************************************************************
"Sunlü eleškarez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: TECH Font Embedding (was Re: Could you take quick look at this?)
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:30 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:27:03 -0700, David Peterson wrote:
>On Oct 21, 2010, at10◊48 AM, Gary Shannon wrote:
>
>> New page with embedded fonts: http://fiziwig.com/conlang/kunu/
...
>And the thing that confuses me is what is .eot? Is that a font type? If so,
>how do you create it? And is that the only one that IE understands?
EOT is for "embedded OpenType". At least the new IE9Beta understands TTF as
well, and it does so remarkably well it displays smart OpenType behaviour
to a similar degree as Firefox does, and much better than Safari and Opera
(which don't do any smart rendering).
There seems to be a Microsoft tool for creating EOT from TTF files. I don't
know it. I have always and successfully used FontSquirrel's @font-face
generator: http://www.fontsquirrel.com/fontface/generator
Personally, I prefer invented fonts not to violate the Unicode standard.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: TECH Font Embedding (was Re: Could you take quick look at this?)
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:31 pm ((PDT))
> Conlang Content in response to Alex's message (which contained
> absolutely no conlang content, I might add): In Kamakawi, the vowels
> of monosyllabic content words are lengthened to satisfy a weight
> requirement for content words. Thus, the genitive particle /li/ has a
> short vowel, [li], but the word /li/, "to get", which comes from the same
> source, has a long vowel: [li:].
>
> -David
>
Does anyone else find it very ironic that the conlang content is the OT part
of this post
also, random word I just thought to use "natlanging : to excercise one's
right as an L1 speaker to abuse one's L1's derviational morphology / lexical
patterns to coin new words.
Ex. today I natlanged the word coughter, the sound of someone coughing, same
as laughter, the sound of someone laughing. (approx. [ˈkʰɑːf.tʰɹ̩] ) Ex. my
coughter kept my roommate up all night.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: TECH Font Embedding (was Re: Could you take quick look at this?)
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:25 am ((PDT))
On Oct 21, 2010, at 11◊29 PM, Matthew Turnbull wrote:
>> Conlang Content in response to Alex's message (which contained
>> absolutely no conlang content, I might add): In Kamakawi, the vowels
>> of monosyllabic content words are lengthened to satisfy a weight
>> requirement for content words. Thus, the genitive particle /li/ has a
>> short vowel, [li], but the word /li/, "to get", which comes from the same
>> source, has a long vowel: [li:].
>>
>> -David
>>
>
> Does anyone else find it very ironic that the conlang content is the OT part
> of this post
Ha!
> also, random word I just thought to use "natlanging : to excercise one's
> right as an L1 speaker to abuse one's L1's derviational morphology / lexical
> patterns to coin new words.
>
> Ex. today I natlanged the word coughter, the sound of someone coughing, same
> as laughter, the sound of someone laughing. (approx. [ˈkʰɑːf.tʰɹ̩] ) Ex. my
> coughter kept my roommate up all night.
Double ha! That's an excellent word! Most of the google hits that come up are
for someone's last name (there's an urban dictionary entry, but it's more of a
combination of laughter and coughing). You should trademark this word and
sell it to schools.
-David
*******************************************************************
"Sunlü eleškarez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Could you take quick look at this?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:45 pm ((PDT))
It looks good to me with Windows XP Home Edition and IE8.
stevo
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Gary Shannon <fizi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> New page with embedded fonts: http://fiziwig.com/conlang/kunu/
>
> Apparently some people are not seeing the embedded fonts in my new
> syllabary web page. Could you take a peek and see if the two lines of
> text in the box at the top of the page match in your browser? The top
> line is an image file of what the second should look like with the
> syllabary font. It works fine for me, even with the font uninstalled
> locally. I'm using both IE and Firefox with Windows, but I'm getting
> feedback that people aren't seeing the fonts. I'd like to figure out
> what's going wrong, and which browsers are having the problem.
>
> Thanks a million.
>
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Could you take quick look at this?
Posted by: "M.S. Soderquist" gloriouswaf...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:49 pm ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Shannon" <fizi...@gmail.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 1:48 PM
Subject: Could you take quick look at this?
> New page with embedded fonts: http://fiziwig.com/conlang/kunu/
>
> Apparently some people are not seeing the embedded fonts in my new
> syllabary web page. Could you take a peek and see if the two lines of
> text in the box at the top of the page match in your browser? The top
> line is an image file of what the second should look like with the
> syllabary font. It works fine for me, even with the font uninstalled
> locally. I'm using both IE and Firefox with Windows, but I'm getting
> feedback that people aren't seeing the fonts. I'd like to figure out
> what's going wrong, and which browsers are having the problem.
>
> Thanks a million.
It worked fine for me in Chrome.
I also liked the look of the syllabary. What was your creation process like?
It took me 12 years to come up with a working syllabary for ea-luna. Some of
my other languages have writing systems, but I think most of them look
cobbled together. A clean, unified look, like what you've got there for
Kunu, would be a nice change.
Mia.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:46 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 00:50:05 -0700, Gary Shannon wrote:
>Here's a syllabary I've been playing with for a couple days. It is called Kunu.
...
>http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/kunu_syllabary.pdf
I have two questions:
What tool is the font intended to be written with. Judging from the distinct
angular shapes, I get the impression that it is intended to be carved into
stone, metal or wax.
What is the phonology of that language? Since some vowels occur only after
certain consonants, there are either severe phonotactic restrictions, or the
script is "defective", that is, it only partially reflects the languages
phonology (like, for instance, the Arab alphabet, the Cherokee syllabary,
the younger Futhark, Gregg shorthand, or English orthography). I personally
think the latter option would be much more intriguing because it allows for
interesting explanations .
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:09 pm ((PDT))
So far it's just a written language, if it can be called a language
since it has no grammar and a lexicon of 2100 computer generated and
assigned words.
Those are interesting questions. It could well be that it is the
writing system that is defective rather than the language. I do plan
to add another dozen or so glyphs, and perhaps some diacritics could
be used to fill in the gaps.
Even with the defective inventory there are still over 140,000
possible 3-syllable words, so perhaps it's not so much defective as it
is minimalistic. That, of course, implies that it is not a
naturalistic language. And as an admittedly artificial language, that
defect might be perfectly alright.
The angular shapes are the result of the crude font tool I'm using:
http://fontstruct.fontshop.com/ Although I have always been intrigued
by glyphs that can be pressed or inscribed into soft clay and then
baked. (See my "neoglyphic at
http://fiziwig.com/conlang/neoglyph/neoglyphic.pdf and my "deep
future" project at http://fiziwig.com/conlang/neo_cune_2.html)
--gary
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:44 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 00:50:05 -0700, Gary Shannon wrote:
>
>>Here's a syllabary I've been playing with for a couple days. It is called
>>Kunu.
> ...
>>http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/kunu_syllabary.pdf
>
> I have two questions:
>
> What tool is the font intended to be written with. Judging from the distinct
> angular shapes, I get the impression that it is intended to be carved into
> stone, metal or wax.
>
> What is the phonology of that language? Since some vowels occur only after
> certain consonants, there are either severe phonotactic restrictions, or the
> script is "defective", that is, it only partially reflects the languages
> phonology (like, for instance, the Arab alphabet, the Cherokee syllabary,
> the younger Futhark, Gregg shorthand, or English orthography). I personally
> think the latter option would be much more intriguing because it allows for
> interesting explanations .
>
> --
> grüess
> mach
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
Posted by: "M.S. Soderquist" gloriouswaf...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:56 pm ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Shannon" <fizi...@gmail.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
> The angular shapes are the result of the crude font tool I'm using:
> http://fontstruct.fontshop.com/ Although I have always been intrigued
> by glyphs that can be pressed or inscribed into soft clay and then
> baked. (See my "neoglyphic at
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/neoglyph/neoglyphic.pdf and my "deep
> future" project at http://fiziwig.com/conlang/neo_cune_2.html)
>
> --gary
>
Ah, well, that answers my question.
I am just going to have to play with some different tools (physical and
digital) to see what I can do. I've been thinking about painting symbols in
a large format, to get a feel for how that turns out, and then maybe seeing
how those translate into a digital format.
M.
M.
Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: A Preliminary Syllabary
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" ruitt...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:31 am ((PDT))
Which is what I did for Eyahwánsi:
http://www.joekewoud.nl/ruittenb/eyahwansi/syllabary.html
René
2010/10/22 M.S. Soderquist <gloriouswaf...@gmail.com>:
>
> I am just going to have to play with some different tools (physical and
> digital) to see what I can do. I've been thinking about painting symbols in
> a large format, to get a feel for how that turns out, and then maybe seeing
> how those translate into a digital format.
>
> M.
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Re: XSAMPA question
Posted by: "John Vertical" johnverti...@hotmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:36 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 07:52:33 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>On 21/10/2010 00:55, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>>[snip]
>> pronunciations I can borrow. With the Berlitz system, how can you ever
>> represent a non-English sound? "A little bit like a k but softer" is nearly
>> useless.
>
>Quite - if the language has the same sounds as English, then
>a Berlitz system works, but what the heck does "A little bit
>like a k but softer" mean?
Worse yet, "Berlitz systems" don't even work for English. There is no
immediately obvious way whatsoever to express the difference between the
three vowels in "luck", "look" and "Luke". The other "short" vowels, ie.
those of "bit", "bet" and "bat", are also difficult if you ever need them
in an open syllable (ie. without a following consonant): "bi be ba" would
tend to be confused for something like "bye bee bah".
Of course, you can explicitely speficy that these symbols are always
pronounced as in "bit bet bat", but once you're doing that, you can just as
well use standard symbols like /ɪ ɛ æ/.
That givs me a thought actually: one reason the IPA may tend to look like
gibberish for English speakers is that the most common vowels of English are
fairly rare elsewhere, and hence they get "special" symbols. And that the
ones that *are* represented in IPA (or XSAMPA) by basic Latin letters are
spell'd weird. If I have to spell out English works, consonants go fairly
solidly but it continues to trip me that I'm supposed to spell "A" as /e/,
"E" as /i/ and "I" as /ai/.
And the important thing is to realize that it's *English* that has this
backwards; languages from Spanish to German to Finnish to Turkish to Tagalog
to Xhosa all agree that "A" sounds like /a/, not like /e/.
(I wonder if it's the fact that most nativ speakers of English are
monolingual which has allowed English to retain its idiosyncratic spelling
and not switch to something that makes halfway sense?)
---
BTW far as I can tell, the Wikipedia page Kou link'd is not up for deletion,
the *other* SAMPA table is. So no conspiracy there :)
---
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:04:23 -0700, Gary Shannon wrote:
>I'm the type of artist who will grab of tube of red
>paint, content to have 3 or four different reds in my palette, and not
>really care that there are 972 different shades of red. It's the
>shapes and forms I'm interested in. The subtleties of color gradations
>don't really interest me.
To continue the analogy, NOBODY cares for 972 shades of red. While even you
would appear to admit to caring for three or so hues, or for that matter,
for using red at all.
I really don't get what you are opposing. That people create languages that
don't sound exactly like English and therefore their pronunciation requires
bothersome special terminology to describe?
And it's funny you've also proclaim'd an interest in writing systems! as
it's an equally (if not more) detached subsystem that has very little to do
with the actual grammar and lexicon. In a way it strikes me as akin to
swearing off caring for one's body, but continuing to care about having
stylish clothes
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (44)
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4.2. Re: XSAMPA question
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:47 pm ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Shannon" <fizi...@gmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:03:28 PM
Subject: Re: XSAMPA question
>All things considered, I think I'm going to stick with the old-school
>"Berliz" method of spelling out pronunciation like
>"pro-nun-see-AY-shun". Not only can I understand that, but the average
>non-linguist would have no trouble with it. And if I want to share my
>conlang with anyone else most of the anyone elses in the world are not
>linguists, so I should share using the means of communication held in
>common by the largest segment of my potential audience, which
>definitely is not IPA or SAMPA.
Many years ago here on the list, I was humorously, deservedly, and roundly
taken out behind the shed, I remember not by whom, for using an "as in"
pronunciation example. I explained that the Géarthnuns sound "öi" was "as in
the 'euille' of "feuille" (commented my chastiser, "or, why we should learn
IPA.") I giggled myself to tears. (Later, I found my quote on a
"can-you-believe-some-poor-schmuck-actually-said-this?" website, thereby
launching my gaffe in aeternitatem. I might as well have asked what the meaning
of "is" is.) So, eat your peas and learn your SAMPA, you'll be glad you did and
so will the people who read your stuff. Me, I list the SAMPA and offer a couple
of real language "as in" examples just to cover all the readership bases,
though I try to mix it up with various languages so it's not so anglocentric.
And the Berlitz spelling pronunciation is so old it has gray hairs growing on
it. Let it go.
Kou
Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________
4.3. Re: XSAMPA question
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:45 pm ((PDT))
> After reading everyone's excellent posts and mulling over the issue
> for a while I think I have a better understanding of the need for
> studying "mouth noises". But I also realize just how little interest
> that I, personally, have in that study.
>
> My primary interests are 1) writing systems, 2) Syntax and grammar, 3)
> morphology and 4) lexicons.
>
For most of my conlanging, I've had a similar attitude. All that mattered
to me were the grammatical aspects of the language and creating interesting
writing systems. I did not systematically add new, non English sounds until
only lately.
To be honest, I was also intimidated by the dense literature on "mouth
noises". I never took the time to understand how people produce sound, and
consequently I had no idea how to make noises that corresponded to those
funny IPA symbols.
However, spending 5 months in Tanzania exposed me to Kiswahili, and also one
click language. The next year, I took an introductory linguistics course,
and the year after that I went to Korea and learned some Korean. This new
knowledge changed my attitude, and now Angosey does not sound like
rearranged English any more.
All this is to say that dry symbols on a page aren't that interesting.
Hearing languages that have truly different phonetics (at least for me)
allowed me to experience how Angosey could be truly different.
Danny
--
Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha
Messages in this topic (44)
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4.4. Re: XSAMPA question
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" 0zu...@gmx.de
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:57 pm ((PDT))
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:43:48 +0000
> Von: Douglas Koller <lao...@comcast.net>
> An: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Betreff: Re: XSAMPA question
> Many years ago here on the list, I was humorously, deservedly, and roundly
> taken out behind the shed, I remember not by whom, for using an "as in"
> pronunciation example. I explained that the Géarthnuns sound "öi" was "as
> in the 'euille' of "feuille" (commented my chastiser, "or, why we should
> learn IPA.") I giggled myself to tears. (Later, I found my quote on a
> "can-you-believe-some-poor-schmuck-actually-said-this?" website, thereby
> launching
> my gaffe in aeternitatem. I might as well have asked what the meaning of
> "is" is.) So, eat your peas and learn your SAMPA, you'll be glad you did and
> so will the people who read your stuff. Me, I list the SAMPA and offer a
> couple of real language "as in" examples just to cover all the readership
> bases, though I try to mix it up with various languages so it's not so
> anglocentric. And the Berlitz spelling pronunciation is so old it has gray
> hairs
> growing on it. Let it go.
>
> Kou
Well, I do not really do 'as in' examples anymore since English is just too
whimsical with its dialects and pronunciations. And since my realisation of it
is probably... special anyways since it's my second language. So it would
mainly confuse people. I prefer to gie people a link to the WP page on X-SAMPA
and let them hear the sound samples associated with the sounds. I am not sure
how newbie compatible that is but it beats trying to find a way to write <sxa>
/s=s`a:/ or <'hesne> /hezne:/ in a way an English speaker could 'get'. (And
that is ignoring the weird stuff in Kenshuite He Mo Gie and Tsali)
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
GMX DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 €/mtl.! Jetzt auch mit
gratis Notebook-Flat! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________
4.5. Re: XSAMPA question
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:22 pm ((PDT))
>
> > Many years ago here on the list, I was humorously, deservedly, and
> roundly
> > taken out behind the shed, I remember not by whom, for using an "as in"
> > pronunciation example.
>
I use "as in" pronunciations with my IPA transcriptions, because I know
that not everyone reading it will know the IPA, but I always (or at least
try to always) specify my dialect very closely, and then just kinda hope
that everyone knows how a given word is pronounced in South-Manitoban
Prairies Canadian English, sort of a silly assumption, but better than not
saying which dialect. We sound almost like people from Northern Minnesota,
but not quite :(
Personally I had alot less difficulty studying articulatory phonetics along
with learning the chart, it really helps to know what all the terms mean in
the descriptions (it also didn't hurt that I know French so I could tell the
difference between English <bay> [beɪ̯] and French <baie> [be] (the /b/ in
<bay> should be partially unvoiced, but I can't find the diacritic ) Which
is probably the vowel I had the most trouble with besides [ə] vs [ɑ]
Messages in this topic (44)
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4.6. Re: XSAMPA question
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:43 am ((PDT))
On 22/10/2010 00:33, John Vertical wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 07:52:33 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>> On 21/10/2010 00:55, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> pronunciations I can borrow. With the Berlitz system, how can you ever
>>> represent a non-English sound? "A little bit like a k but softer" is nearly
>>> useless.
>>
>> Quite - if the language has the same sounds as English, then
>> a Berlitz system works, but what the heck does "A little bit
>> like a k but softer" mean?
>
> Worse yet, "Berlitz systems" don't even work for English. There is no
> immediately obvious way whatsoever to express the difference between the
> three vowels in "luck", "look" and "Luke". The other "short" vowels, ie.
> those of "bit", "bet" and "bat", are also difficult if you ever need them
> in an open syllable (ie. without a following consonant): "bi be ba" would
> tend to be confused for something like "bye bee bah".
>
> Of course, you can explicitely speficy that these symbols are always
> pronounced as in "bit bet bat", but once you're doing that, you can just as
> well use standard symbols like /ɪɛ �/.
>
> That givs me a thought actually: one reason the IPA may tend to look like
> gibberish for English speakers is that the most common vowels of English are
> fairly rare elsewhere, and hence they get "special" symbols. And that the
> ones that *are* represented in IPA (or XSAMPA) by basic Latin letters are
> spell'd weird. If I have to spell out English works, consonants go fairly
> solidly but it continues to trip me that I'm supposed to spell "A" as /e/,
> "E" as /i/ and "I" as /ai/.
>
> And the important thing is to realize that it's *English* that has this
> backwards; languages from Spanish to German to Finnish to Turkish to Tagalog
> to Xhosa all agree that "A" sounds like /a/, not like /e/.
>
> (I wonder if it's the fact that most nativ speakers of English are
> monolingual which has allowed English to retain its idiosyncratic spelling
> and not switch to something that makes halfway sense?)
>
Inglish iz issenshali a langwidje dhat, wen rittun fonetkli, iz ilejibul
tu netiv spikerz.
Pete
Messages in this topic (44)
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5a. Re: Through the Language Glass - A Conlanger's Review
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:55 pm ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <tsela...@gmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:04:47 AM
Subject: Re: Through the Language Glass - A Conlanger's Review
On 21 October 2010 16:14, masukomi <masuk...@masukomi.org> wrote:
>> Am I right in thinking that I am not edible, and my friends are not edible,
>> but my enemies are?
>Not necessarily. Depending on the tone of voice, edibility can be endearing!
>(not unknown in natlangs. I remember a French mother calling her child "mon
>petit chou à la crême": "my little cream puff"!)
'Tis true. One French macaque was grooming another when the groomer
affectionately called the insect she just picked "ma puce".
Kou
Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
Posted by: "Josh Roth" tan...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:31 pm ((PDT))
For one of my languages, I'm looking for a unicode font that handles diacritics
especially well. Specifically, one that will place the horn diacritic < ̛ >
correctly on any letter - or at least on <a e i o u w s> (including these
letters combined with other diacritics, such as <õ ĩ ë>). Many fonts do include
<ơ> and <ư>, which appear in the Vietnamese alphabet, but when the combining
horn diacritic is added to any other letter, it appears too high up, isn't on
the right edge, and/or doesn't connect smoothly to the letter.
Anyone know of a (preferably free) font that can perform this fairly simple, if
not so practical feat? I've look at a great many, but haven't found even one.
The font would also have to include some other less common diacritics that I'm
using, which some fonts do have but many/most do not (and for which placement
is usually not a big problem): dot above <ȯ>, dot below <ọ>, left half ring
above <o͑>, right half ring below <o̹>, and acute accent below <o̗>.
I'd be grateful for any suggestions!
Josh
tanuef.110mb.com
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" 0zu...@gmx.de
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:00 pm ((PDT))
A quick test found that Driod Serif seems to work.
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 04:29:52 +0200
> Von: Josh Roth <tan...@gmail.com>
> An: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Betreff: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
> For one of my languages, I'm looking for a unicode font that handles
> diacritics especially well. Specifically, one that will place the horn
> diacritic
> < ̛ > correctly on any letter - or at least on <a e i o u w s>
> (including these letters combined with other diacritics, such as <õ ĩ ë>).
> Many
> fonts do include <ơ> and <ư>, which appear in the Vietnamese alphabet,
> but when the combining horn diacritic is added to any other letter, it
> appears too high up, isn't on the right edge, and/or doesn't connect smoothly
> to
> the letter.
>
> Anyone know of a (preferably free) font that can perform this fairly
> simple, if not so practical feat? I've look at a great many, but haven't found
> even one. The font would also have to include some other less common
> diacritics that I'm using, which some fonts do have but many/most do not (and
> for
> which placement is usually not a big problem): dot above <ȯ>, dot below
> <ọ>, left half ring above <o͑>, right half ring below <o̹>, and acute
> accent below <o̗>.
>
> I'd be grateful for any suggestions!
>
> Josh
> tanuef.110mb.com
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
GMX DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 €/mtl.! Jetzt auch mit
gratis Notebook-Flat! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6c. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" 0zu...@gmx.de
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:03 pm ((PDT))
Sorry, Droid Serif. And DejaVu Sans
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 04:29:52 +0200
> Von: Josh Roth <tan...@gmail.com>
> An: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Betreff: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
> For one of my languages, I'm looking for a unicode font that handles
> diacritics especially well. Specifically, one that will place the horn
> diacritic
> < ̛ > correctly on any letter - or at least on <a e i o u w s>
> (including these letters combined with other diacritics, such as <õ ĩ ë>).
> Many
> fonts do include <ơ> and <ư>, which appear in the Vietnamese alphabet,
> but when the combining horn diacritic is added to any other letter, it
> appears too high up, isn't on the right edge, and/or doesn't connect smoothly
> to
> the letter.
>
> Anyone know of a (preferably free) font that can perform this fairly
> simple, if not so practical feat? I've look at a great many, but haven't found
> even one. The font would also have to include some other less common
> diacritics that I'm using, which some fonts do have but many/most do not (and
> for
> which placement is usually not a big problem): dot above <ȯ>, dot below
> <ọ>, left half ring above <o͑>, right half ring below <o̹>, and acute
> accent below <o̗>.
>
> I'd be grateful for any suggestions!
>
> Josh
> tanuef.110mb.com
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief!
Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6d. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
Posted by: "Josh Roth" tan...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:13 am ((PDT))
I just checked these, and the placement of the horn is off in both. If you
compare <a̛> or <i̛> with <ơ>, for example, you can see the difference. Unless
it looks different on different computers somehow? Droid is also missing some
of the other diacritics altogether.
Josh
On Oct 22, 2010, at 5:00 AM, Mechthild Czapp wrote:
> Sorry, Droid Serif. And DejaVu Sans
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 04:29:52 +0200
>> Von: Josh Roth <tan...@gmail.com>
>> An: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>> Betreff: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
>
>> For one of my languages, I'm looking for a unicode font that handles
>> diacritics especially well. Specifically, one that will place the horn
>> diacritic
>> < ̛ > correctly on any letter - or at least on <a e i o u w s>
>> (including these letters combined with other diacritics, such as <õ ĩ ë>).
>> Many
>> fonts do include <ơ> and <ư>, which appear in the Vietnamese alphabet,
>> but when the combining horn diacritic is added to any other letter, it
>> appears too high up, isn't on the right edge, and/or doesn't connect
>> smoothly to
>> the letter.
>>
>> Anyone know of a (preferably free) font that can perform this fairly
>> simple, if not so practical feat? I've look at a great many, but haven't
>> found
>> even one. The font would also have to include some other less common
>> diacritics that I'm using, which some fonts do have but many/most do not
>> (and for
>> which placement is usually not a big problem): dot above <ȯ>, dot below
>> <ọ>, left half ring above <o͑>, right half ring below <o̹>, and acute
>> accent below <o̗>.
>>
>> I'd be grateful for any suggestions!
>>
>> Josh
>> tanuef.110mb.com
>
> --
> Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
>
> My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
>
>
>
> Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief!
> Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
6e. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:06 am ((PDT))
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:04:22 +0200, Josh Roth <tan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I just checked these, and the placement of the horn is off in both. If you
compare
><a̛> or <i̛> with <ơ>, for example, you can see the difference.
>Unless it looks
>different on different computers somehow?
It does. The rendering of diacritics like these is normally achieved by
smart OpenType features (alternatively, by AAT or Graphite). OpenType
capabilities typically depend from applications to application. Microsoft
Word is especially known for its lack of any smart rendering. For what I
know, this has changed since Microsoft Word 2010. There are other
applications with better OpenType capabilities. OOo does Graphite. Many Mac
applications do AAT.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (6)
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6f. Re: Fonts with correct diacritic placement?
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:44 am ((PDT))
On 22 October 2010 11:03, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:04:22 +0200, Josh Roth <tan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I just checked these, and the placement of the horn is off in both. If you
> compare
> ><a̛> or <i̛> with <ơ>, for example, you can see the difference. Unless it
> looks
> >different on different computers somehow?
>
> It does. The rendering of diacritics like these is normally achieved by
> smart OpenType features (alternatively, by AAT or Graphite). OpenType
> capabilities typically depend from applications to application.
Yes. By definition of their specification, how to show OpenType smart
features is left to the application showing the font. AFAIK, Graphite is
different in that it actually includes *programs* that *tell* the
application how to show a specific feature. So Graphite smart features
should look the same no matter the application (at least in an ideal world).
OpenType features don't have to. I don't know how AAT features fare, but
AFAIK they work similarly to OpenType smart features.
> Microsoft
> Word is especially known for its lack of any smart rendering. For what I
> know, this has changed since Microsoft Word 2010. There are other
> applications with better OpenType capabilities. OOo does Graphite. Many Mac
> applications do AAT.
>
>
XeTeX (a Unicode-aware version of TeX with very advanced font support)
supports both OpenType and AAT. I'm not sure about Graphite, but I think it
does have some support as well.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Doggy translation [was: Through the Language Glass - A Conlanger
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:56 pm ((PDT))
Might as well make a translation challenge of it:
in Jorayn with super rough interlinears
tiirsa na'fiiyolyoma monarrablo lii at monarrarra. sii'saror
na'monaaso riiyomafoepkko sat
when neg-know-2 eat-2-able thing and eat-IMP. it's.true
not.be.food like.fog then
vraciisarroblarran
out-stomach-make.it-fut
roughly, when you're not sure if you can eat it, eat it. If it's not food,
then throw it up.
I really need a better system for "if...then..." statements than "verb+ADV
then action" it's not so bad, but the language isn't analytical enough for
it to make alot of sense, and also riiyomafoepkko is a very large cumbersome
adverb :(
Messages in this topic (6)
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8. New Zhyler Orthography Page
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:14 am ((PDT))
Heh, heh...
So the recent discussion of X-SAMPA, which led to a short
discussion of font embedding, led me to a series of resources
which have allowed me to (finally!) embed fonts in my site. Part
one of the massive site overhaul this new knowledge has led
me to enact has been completed: a redone Zhyler orthography
page. You can view it below:
http://dedalvs.com/zhyler/orthography.html
Please let me know offlist if you can't view the embedded font.
I know that something is up, because I just checked it right now
on my iPhone, and the font embedding doesn't work (previously
it had; I wonder what I changed...). Provided there are no major
obstacles, I'm going to start changing everything--and including
more font-based examples throughout.
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (1)
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