There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. UNSUBSCRIBE
From: Holly Lisle
2a. Nonsense Languages
From: Samuel Stutter
2b. Re: Nonsense Languages
From: Carsten Becker
3a. slavic, baltoslavic or similar indoeuropean zonal conlangs intelligi
From: Vojtěch Merunka
3b. Re: slavic, baltoslavic or similar indoeuropean zonal conlangs intel
From: Adam Walker
3c. Re: slavic, baltoslavic or similar indoeuropean zonal conlangs intel
From: Roman Rausch
4a. Re: Endangered Alphabets Project
From: Tony Harris
4b. Endangered Alphabets Project
From: Arthaey Angosii
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. UNSUBSCRIBE
Posted by: "Holly Lisle" ho...@hollylisle.com
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2010 7:58 am ((PST))
On Dec 2, 2010, at 12:03 AM, CONLANG automatic digest system wrote:
> There are 18 messages totalling 866 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Holliday card exchange (2)
> 2. Holiday card exchange
> 3. Diacritics (12)
> 4. Has anyone heard from Lila Sadkin recently?
> 5. neoslavonic language - novoslovienskij jazyk
> 6. Work-in-Progress: Dritok Primer
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:22:05 -0700
> From: Logan Kearsley <chronosur...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Holliday card exchange
>
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I would like to participate, especially since I didn't last year.
>
> Me, too. Especially since I didn't even know it was happening last
> year. Being rather out of touch at the time.
>
> -l.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:44:20 -0800
> From: Dale McCreery <mccre...@uvic.ca>
> Subject: Re: Holliday card exchange
>
> I'm up for sending cards. It'll be the first christmas card I've ever
> sent, so a somewhat monumentous event. I can hardly wait to see what
> comes next.
>
> -Dale-
>
>> I would like to participate, especially since I didn't last year.
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are we going to do this again this year? I had a lot of fun with it
>>> last
>>> year and sorta hoped it was going to be come a traditon. Since no one
>>> else
>>> had asked yet, I thought I would.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:44:48 -0500
> From: Amanda Babcock Furrow <la...@quandary.org>
> Subject: Re: Holiday card exchange
>
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Adam Walker wrote:
>
>> Are we going to do this again this year? I had a lot of fun with it last
>> year and sorta hoped it was going to be come a traditon. Since no one else
>> had asked yet, I thought I would.
>
> Thanks for the nudge! I am running a bit late starting it this year. I need
> to add a "2010" field to the options and then (hopefully tomorrow) I will post
> details about how new participants can sign up and old ones can sign up for
> this year.
>
> At this point it would be more of a "by New Year's" than by Christmas. (But
> it will be running, so anyone who plans to participate can start working on
> their card design!)
>
> tylakèhlpë'fö,
> Amanda
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 08:03:50 +0000
> From: R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> On 01/12/2010 01:53, Charlie wrote:
>> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "J. 'Mach'
>> Wust"<j_mach_w...@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> My point is that there is a correlation between scripts
>>> and scriptures in modern Western and Middle Eastern
>>> societies, but there wasn't in ancient times.
>>
>> Is there no correlation between the Hebrew scriptures and
>> the Aramaic/Hebrew alphabets,
>
> Of course there was! That's why the complicated system of
> 'pointing' to denote vowels and other features was
> developed. There was a need for the scriptures to be read
> correctly, but also the view was that the very letters in
> which those scriptures were written should not be changed,
> i.e. you can't add extra letters for vowels etc when the
> cannon is fixed.
>
>> the Zend-avesta and the
>> Pahlavi script, the Vedas and the Devanagari alphabet?
>
> I am very certain that this is so.
>
> But even closer to home are the Iliad and Odyssey of Homer.
>
> Before saying more, I will digress on just one point. Some
> recent posts on Vietnamese seem to have missed the point. I
> said in my original email that the acute, grave & circumflex
> accents were originally invented by the Alexandrian
> grammarians to denote differences in pitch; I have opined
> more than once that the use of diacritics to denote prosodic
> or suprasegmantal features is IMO their "proper" use (tho I
> have conceded since that some more typographically distinct
> way of doing this is desirable).
>
> What I object to is the piling up of diacritics on one
> character; that's what we find in Vietnamese. But we find
> it also in the conventional printing of ancient Greek. On
> initial vowels (or the second vowel of a diphthong/digraph)
> we may find both an accent and a breathing, e.g.
> áπ≠ áπ≠ áπ∞ áπ≥ áπ∑ áπ∫ áπΩ
>
> So how did that come about?
>
> In 403 BCE the Athenians voted to abandon their own version
> of the alphabet and adopt the eastern Ionian one (which
> remains the official Greek alphabet until the present day).
> The advantage was that vowel distinctions were more clearly
> shown (they now had seven symbols instead of five); but the
> downside was that there was no symbol for /h/ - not a
> problem to the Ionian since they "dropped their aitches" :)
>
> The other thing that happened is that during the 5th century
> BCE the Homeric texts had become standardized and the
> Athenian cannon became the accepted one.
>
> Now, as I have observed before, the Greek diacritics were
> devised in the first place to ensure the correct
> pronunciation of the Homeric texts. But the texts
> themselves could not be altered, i.e. you couldn't go
> inserting a new letter for /h/! Any marks to indicate
> correct reading had to go above or below the letter. Sound
> familiar? Ain't that exactly the same problem that
> confronted the Masoretes and others who wanted to show the
> correct pronunciation of Hebrew? Of course it is.
>
> The familiar 'breathings' were developed to show whether
> there was an initial /h/ or not.
>
> Thus, to maintain that there was no correlation between
> sacred text (and the texts of the Iliad and Odyssey were
> sacred to the ancients) and script in ancient times is
> demonstrably false.
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On 30/11/2010 21:46, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> We have the
>> Latin script in catholic regions, the Cyrillic script in
>> Slavic-orthodox regions, the Arabic script in Muslim
>> regions.
>
> Yes - no one AFAIK has disputed that. Indeed, it would be
> foolish to do so.
>
> But what I do dispute is that this has inhibited the
> development of extra letters. Indeed, it clearly has not if
> one bothers to look at the Arabic based scripts of Farsi,
> Urdu and other languages that are/were written in an Arabic
> devised alphabet.
>
> I know of no evidence that the scriptures restricted those
> using the Roman alphabet to just 23 letters. In fact, I
> think it is pretty clear that it did not. Thorn, for
> example, had a long use in English (during those centuries
> when Catholicism was the established religion in England!) -
> what killed it of as a separate letter was the advent of
> printing in the 15th century.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> will always interfere with language".
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 12:31:39 +0100
> From: Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> Den 1. des. 2010 kl. 09.03 skrev R A Brown:
>
>> In 403 BCE the Athenians voted to abandon their own version of the
>> alphabet and adopt the eastern Ionian one (which remains the
>> official Greek alphabet until the present day). The advantage was
>> that vowel distinctions were more clearly shown (they now had seven
>> symbols instead of five); but the downside was that there was no
>> symbol for /h/ - not a problem to the Ionian since they "dropped
>> their aitches" :)
>>
>> The other thing that happened is that during the 5th century BCE
>> the Homeric texts had become standardized and the Athenian cannon
>> became the accepted one.
>>
>> Now, as I have observed before, the Greek diacritics were devised
>> in the first place to ensure the correct pronunciation of the
>> Homeric texts. But the texts themselves could not be altered, i.e.
>> you couldn't go inserting a new letter for /h/! Any marks to
>> indicate correct reading had to go above or below the letter.
>
> This implies, I guess, that the Homeric texts known and used by the
> Athenians were not in their own version of the alphabet, but in that
> Ionian one. After all, Homer was Ionian. If the Athenians had had a
> distinct letter for "aitch", they could have dragged that along, but
> apparently it (the "heta") was identical in form to the Ionian "eta".
>
> This explains why the capital eta looks so much like an H. Some of
> the colonies in Italy were ionian, but not all. Hades in the pre-403
> Athenian script would look like ΘαδεÏ≠, I guess - no letter for
> long e (and no accents).
>
> LEF
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:36:06 +0000
> From: Peter Bleackley <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Has anyone heard from Lila Sadkin recently?
>
> On 30/11/2010 20:40, David Peterson wrote:
>> She tweets regularly. Did you need to get a hold of her?
>>
>
> I'd like to know what happened next in Inverse Relay 2.
>
> Pete
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:52:08 -0500
> From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:53:59 -0000, Charlie <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "J. 'Mach' Wust" <j_mach_w...@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> My point is that there is a correlation between scripts and
>>> scriptures in modern Western and Middle Eastern societies, but there
>>> wasn't in ancient times.
>>
>> Is there no correlation between the Hebrew scriptures and the Aramaic/Hebrew
>> alphabets, the Zend-avesta and the Pahlavi script, the Vedas and the
>> Devanagari
>> alphabet?
>
> Not really. In ancient times, much of the Hebrew scriptures were originally
> written in the Old Hebrew script, but later on in an Aramaic-based script,
> but that script did not remain plain Aramaic, but changed into what is now
> the "modern" Hebrew script. There is no correlation between the Vedic
> Scriptures and the devanagari script. In Southern India, they were not
> written in the devanagari script, but in Southern Indic alphabets.
>
> Of course, alphabets were adapted to other languages in Ancient times, but
> they tended to change into new scripts in the process of adaption. I guess
> the reason for that was that there were no Scriptures that would conserve
> the script.
>
> --
> grüess
> mach
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 17:25:43 +0000
> From: R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> On 01/12/2010 11:31, Lars Finsen wrote:
>> Den 1. des. 2010 kl. 09.03 skrev R A Brown:
>>
> [snip]
>>
>> This implies, I guess, that the Homeric texts known and
>> used by the Athenians were not in their own version of
>> the alphabet, but in that Ionian one. After all, Homer
>> was Ionian. If the Athenians had had a distinct letter
>> for "aitch", they could have dragged that along, but
>> apparently it (the "heta") was identical in form to the
>> Ionian "eta".
>
> Before the Athenians adopted the Ionian alphabet it did
> indeed have "heta" which, as far as the character goes (not
> the value) was the same as "eta." During the change over,
> as the Ionian gradually replaced local form, we do
> occasionally find inscriptions in which _H_ is used with
> both values.
>
> What I meant is that by the Alexandrian period, the Athenian
> Homeric canon had become the accepted one among the Greeks.
>
>> This explains why the capital eta looks so much like an
>> H. Some of the colonies in Italy were ionian, but not
>> all. Hades in the pre-403 Athenian script would look like
>> ΘαδεÏ≠, I guess - no letter for long e (and no accents).
>
> Yep.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> On 01/12/2010 12:17, Ph.D. wrote:
>> I don't mean to be critical, but shouldn't this be "canon"?
>
> Yes, it should! Thanks.
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> On 01/12/2010 15:52, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:53:59 -0000,
>> Charlie<caeruleancent...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [snip]
>>> Is there no correlation between the Hebrew scriptures
>>> and the Aramaic/Hebrew alphabets, the Zend-avesta and
>>> the Pahlavi script, the Vedas and the Devanagari
>>> alphabet?
>>
>> Not really. In ancient times, much of the Hebrew
>> scriptures were originally written in the Old Hebrew
>> script, but later on in an Aramaic-based script, but that
>> script did not remain plain Aramaic, but changed into
>> what is now the "modern" Hebrew script.
>
> Humph! This looks to me a bit like bending facts to fit a
> theory. Of course the earliest Hebrew scriptures were
> written in the Old Hebrew alphabet (very similar to the
> Phoenician); later writings were in Aramaic. But in the
> post-exilic period the scriptures came to be compiled and
> standardized and written in the "square Hebrew" characters
> that the Jews have been using for more some two and half
> millennia now. In the minds of the Masoretes and others
> there was certainly a correlation between script and
> scriptures. Good grief! The Kabbalah is developed largely
> from this correlation.
>
> Lars alludes to the fact that Homer was originally written
> in local scripts and, indeed, almost certainly had variant
> forms of text (In the 19th century some scholars attempted
> to retrieve the "original" together with old letter _vau_).
> But eventually, because of the pre-eminence of Athens the
> Athenian canon, written in the Ionian alphabet, became the
> recognized "authorized version." It was that version that
> the Alexandrians preserved and for which they developed
> various diacritics so that:
> - Homer could be read correctly;
> - the _script_ of the text could be preserved in the
> authorized form.
>
> [snip]
>>
>> Of course, alphabets were adapted to other languages in
>> Ancient times, but they tended to change into new scripts
>> in the process of adaption. I guess the reason for that
>> was that there were no Scriptures that would conserve the
>> script.
>
> You do NOT need scriptures to conserve a script! It is well
> known that Emperor Claudius added three extra letters to the
> Roman alphabets; and inscriptions can be found with them on.
> But these letters did not survive his reign - not because of
> any scriptures (and certainly the Latin scriptures can't be
> blamed for it!!). I guess the reason they were dropped was
> good ol' plain conservatism.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> will always interfere with language".
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:00:50 -0500
> From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 17:25:43 +0000, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Of course the earliest Hebrew scriptures were
>> written in the Old Hebrew alphabet (very similar to the
>> Phoenician); later writings were in Aramaic. But in the
>> post-exilic period the scriptures came to be compiled and
>> standardized and written in the "square Hebrew" characters
>> that the Jews have been using for more some two and half
>> millennia now. In the minds of the Masoretes and others
>> there was certainly a correlation between script and
>> scriptures.
>
> I think you have not really understood my point. Within one language, there
> is quite obviously always a correlation between the script and anything
> written in it. I am talking about single scripts that are used for different
> languages. For instance the "square" Hebrew script: There is a number of
> languages that are written in square Hebrew script because of their
> connection with the Hebrew religious scriptures. The script has been adapted
> from one language to another because of the religion.
>
> --
> grüess
> mach
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:21:15 +0100
> From: =?UTF-8?B?Vm9qdMSbY2ggTWVydW5rYQ==?= <vmeru...@gmail.com>
> Subject: neoslavonic language - novoslovienskij jazyk
>
> Dear conlangers,
>
> This is info about the new zonal conlangue - neoslavonic. The language
> is a modernization of the old (church) slavonic and it works! Both oral
> and written form of this language is intelligible without learning.
>
> This project is a successor of the first slavic conlangue Slovio, which
> still evolves. Both languages have the same dictionary and both teams
> collaborates. Slovio is a project with very minimalistic grammar
> (considerably similar to Esperanto). Neoslavonic has full grammar (7
> noun cases, 6 verbal tenses, ...) similar to current slavic languages,
> but with small number of patterns almost without exceptions. There are
> two different approaches to interslavic communication represented by
> these two projects. Recently we started practical usage of these
> languages. We will perform supporters meeting in Prague next August and
> several master and doctoral thesis have been started as well. They are
> on software applications (dictionaries, mobile devices, CMS) and
> marketing/management opportinities (e.g. knowledge transfer and
> facilitation of local business, turism, regional management, ... between
> slavic regions within E.U.).
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/youtube
>
>
>
> the best
> Vojta M.
> the author
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 17:18:14 -0600
> From: Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:00 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> There is a number of
>> languages that are written in square Hebrew script because of their
>> connection with the Hebrew religious scriptures. The script has been
>> adapted
>> from one language to another because of the religion.
>>
>> What? which other languages are written in Hebrew square? Not even
> Samaritan fits the bill to my knowledge. Oh, wait, you're meaning Yiddish
> and Ladino and the like. I wouldn't count them in quite the same category
> for this discussion.
>
>
> Adam
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:06:12 -0600
> From: Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> And Aramaic
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:00 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> There is a number of
>>> languages that are written in square Hebrew script because of their
>>> connection with the Hebrew religious scriptures. The script has been
>>> adapted
>>> from one language to another because of the religion.
>>>
>>> What? which other languages are written in Hebrew square? Not even
>> Samaritan fits the bill to my knowledge. Oh, wait, you're meaning Yiddish
>> and Ladino and the like. I wouldn't count them in quite the same category
>> for this discussion.
>>
>>
>> Adam
>>
>
>
>
> --
> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:19:35 -0600
> From: Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> No Aramaic has its own script.
>
> On 12/1/10, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And Aramaic
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:00 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is a number of
>>>> languages that are written in square Hebrew script because of their
>>>> connection with the Hebrew religious scriptures. The script has been
>>>> adapted
>>>> from one language to another because of the religion.
>>>>
>>>> What? which other languages are written in Hebrew square? Not even
>>> Samaritan fits the bill to my knowledge. Oh, wait, you're meaning Yiddish
>>> and Ladino and the like. I wouldn't count them in quite the same category
>>> for this discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
>> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:28:44 -0600
> From: Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> At one time it had. But Biblical Aramaic is now written in the same script
> as Hebrew. Look at the Book of Daniel some time in the original: part in
> Hebrew, part in Aramaic, all in the same script. At least, in my B. H. it
> is.
>
> I don't know what this proves or fails to prove in re: the original
> argument, since I don't really *understand* the original argument.
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No Aramaic has its own script.
>>
>> On 12/1/10, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> And Aramaic
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:00 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is a number of
>>>>> languages that are written in square Hebrew script because of their
>>>>> connection with the Hebrew religious scriptures. The script has been
>>>>> adapted
>>>>> from one language to another because of the religion.
>>>>>
>>>>> What? which other languages are written in Hebrew square? Not even
>>>> Samaritan fits the bill to my knowledge. Oh, wait, you're meaning
>> Yiddish
>>>> and Ladino and the like. I wouldn't count them in quite the same
>> category
>>>> for this discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
>>> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:07:11 -0800
> From: Donald Boozer <donaldboo...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Work-in-Progress: Dritok Primer
>
> At the risk of unveiling a not-ready-for-primetime project, I'm posting the
> beginning lessons of my Dritok Primer online for everyone's amusement:
>
> http://library.conlang.org/DritokPrimer.pdf
>
> The booklet currently only has 7 lessons, an Appendix, Answers to Exercises,
> and a Dritok-English glossary.
>
> My goal (years from now, no doubt) is to convert it to a web site complete
> with audio and video. But I'm going to need way more than 7 lessons for that
> to be worthwhile.
>
> Some of the information has been available previously, but this is a new
> format. As I mentioned before, my inspiration was Carsten's Ayeri Grammar. I
> remember finding his original several years ago, and his updated draft is
> even more impressive. That grammar is one of the reasons I asked him to allow
> me to include him in the Conlang Exhibit.
>
> In any case, enjoy the project as it stands and I'll keep the list notified
> as it moves along (sloowly, but, hopefully, surely).
>
> h:.qs.p*.=D4/I1=D2;
>
> Don
> http://library.conlang.org
> Twitter: @FiatLingua
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 05:20:54 +0100
> From: Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>
>> quoting Roger Mills:
>>
>>> A language that would be helped with a diacritic (and used to be,
>>> pre-1972) is Indonesian, which uses "e" for both schwa as well as
>>> [e] and (rare, mostly conditioned) [E]. Formerly, [e,E] were marked
>>> with an acute.
>>
>> I.e., the same way as in my conlang Roman Germanech
>
> And the same way as in my natlang Norwegian, which additionally often
> writes an _e_ even where there is no vowel at all, only a syllabic
> consonant, mostly in the masculine definite endings, but also in the
> demonstrative _den_, for example. This does not apply to all dialects.
>
> LEF
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:36:27 -0600
> From: Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> It still has. The only place I am aware of Hebrew square being used
> to write Aramaic in in the Tanakh in those few passages that are not
> in Hebrew. Aramaic is still spoken in daily life, still in use as a
> liturgical language and written in its own script. I have the New
> Testament in Aramaic in my storage building; it is not in Hebrew
> square characters.
>
> Adam
>
> On 12/1/10, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> At one time it had. But Biblical Aramaic is now written in the same script
>> as Hebrew. Look at the Book of Daniel some time in the original: part in
>> Hebrew, part in Aramaic, all in the same script. At least, in my B. H. it
>> is.
>>
>> I don't know what this proves or fails to prove in re: the original
>> argument, since I don't really *understand* the original argument.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No Aramaic has its own script.
>>>
>>> On 12/1/10, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> And Aramaic
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:00 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a number of
>>>>>> languages that are written in square Hebrew script because of their
>>>>>> connection with the Hebrew religious scriptures. The script has been
>>>>>> adapted
>>>>>> from one language to another because of the religion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What? which other languages are written in Hebrew square? Not even
>>>>> Samaritan fits the bill to my knowledge. Oh, wait, you're meaning
>>> Yiddish
>>>>> and Ladino and the like. I wouldn't count them in quite the same
>>> category
>>>>> for this discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
>>>> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
>> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:55:00 -0600
> From: Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Diacritics
>
> It would be more accurate to say that Hebrew is written in the Aramaic
> alphabet, or at least, an early version of it. Imperial Aramaic has a
> somewhat different alphabet, but it's not hard to see the genetic
> relationship to square Hebrew script.
>
> As far as contemporary Aramaic, I'm guessing your NT is written in the
> Estrangelo script, which displays than a little similarity to the script
> currently used to write Hebrew. It's not much further from Square Hebrew
> than handwritten "cursive" Hebrew is.
>
> In a very real sense, nearly every alphabet is a version of the early
> semitic alphabet that turned into all these scripts.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It still has. The only place I am aware of Hebrew square being used
>> to write Aramaic in in the Tanakh in those few passages that are not
>> in Hebrew. Aramaic is still spoken in daily life, still in use as a
>> liturgical language and written in its own script. I have the New
>> Testament in Aramaic in my storage building; it is not in Hebrew
>> square characters.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On 12/1/10, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> At one time it had. But Biblical Aramaic is now written in the same
>> script
>>> as Hebrew. Look at the Book of Daniel some time in the original: part in
>>> Hebrew, part in Aramaic, all in the same script. At least, in my B. H.
>> it
>>> is.
>>>
>>> I don't know what this proves or fails to prove in re: the original
>>> argument, since I don't really *understand* the original argument.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No Aramaic has its own script.
>>>>
>>>> On 12/1/10, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> And Aramaic
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:00 PM, J. 'Mach' Wust <
>> j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a number of
>>>>>>> languages that are written in square Hebrew script because of their
>>>>>>> connection with the Hebrew religious scriptures. The script has
>> been
>>>>>>> adapted
>>>>>>> from one language to another because of the religion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What? which other languages are written in Hebrew square? Not
>> even
>>>>>> Samaritan fits the bill to my knowledge. Oh, wait, you're meaning
>>>> Yiddish
>>>>>> and Ladino and the like. I wouldn't count them in quite the same
>>>> category
>>>>>> for this discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
>> to
>>>>> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur
>> Rimbaud
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
>>> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur Rimbaud
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of CONLANG Digest - 30 Nov 2010 to 1 Dec 2010 (#2010-229)
> *************************************************************
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Nonsense Languages
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" sam.stut...@student.manchester.ac.uk
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:14 am ((PST))
I'm not sure if anyone's tried this before (or if anyone's interested,
for that matter), but I've recently started compiling lists of
utterance strings from (BBC3's) "The Mighty Boosh" and (Icelandic
alternative music legends) Sigur Rós. I'm almost certain the Boosh
words are nonsense (just what sounded cool to Noel and Julian), but
apparently Sigur Rós' "Hopelandic" is an English/Icelandic composite.
At the moment I'm mainly using it for creating new lexicon (after
first having altered it to fit my conlang); the Hopelandic fits my
morphosyntax really well, the repeated uses of "ja" and "æ" suit my
languages class-1 definite article and adjectival agreement suffix
very nicely. If anyone wants to use the list, they're more than
welcome, and if anyone can come up with a better idea for what to use
this nonsense for, it's much appreciated. Also, if anyone knows
anything more on Hopelandic.
Sam
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Nonsense Languages
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2010 10:04 am ((PST))
AFAIK Sigur Rós themselves have stated that Hopelandic is not a proper
language with a lexicon and an established grammar, but rather, the
words are/the voice is used as another kind of instrument. And if you
listen to "( )" in its entirety (very much recommended, especially
Untitled VIII/Popplagið, as its end is the Crowning Moment of Awesome of
the album), it's more or less the same words repeated in all songs, in a
kind of loop.
Carsten
Am 02.12.2010 18:07, schrieb Samuel Stutter:
> I'm not sure if anyone's tried this before (or if anyone's interested,
> for that matter), but I've recently started compiling lists of
> utterance strings from (BBC3's) "The Mighty Boosh" and (Icelandic
> alternative music legends) Sigur Rós. I'm almost certain the Boosh
> words are nonsense (just what sounded cool to Noel and Julian), but
> apparently Sigur Rós' "Hopelandic" is an English/Icelandic composite.
> At the moment I'm mainly using it for creating new lexicon (after
> first having altered it to fit my conlang); the Hopelandic fits my
> morphosyntax really well, the repeated uses of "ja" and "æ" suit my
> languages class-1 definite article and adjectival agreement suffix
> very nicely. If anyone wants to use the list, they're more than
> welcome, and if anyone can come up with a better idea for what to use
> this nonsense for, it's much appreciated. Also, if anyone knows
> anything more on Hopelandic.
>
> Sam
--
Ayeri Grammar (under construction): http://bit.ly/9dSyTI (PDF)
Der Sprachbaukasten: http://sanstitre.nfshost.com/sbk
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. slavic, baltoslavic or similar indoeuropean zonal conlangs intelligi
Posted by: "Vojtěch Merunka" vmeru...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2010 10:45 am ((PST))
Hello everybody,
Do You work on some Slavic (or similar) zonal conlang, which might be
intelligible for ordinary people from some the indo-european group of
nations? Our language is Novoslovienskij
(https://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/faq), but as our
colleague Jan van Stenbergen wrote: "Like many other large language
families, the Slavic languages have inspired language creators to build
an artificial Slavic language. Either just for fun (a hypothetical North
Slavic language, for instance), or with the purpose of creating a
language understandable for speakers of different Slavic languages.
During the course of history, many attempts have been made at a Slavic
inter-language. "
Look at his collection of about 60 Slavic conlangs:
http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/constructed_slavic_languages.html
thank You
V.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*assoc. prof. Vojtěch Merunka, Ph.D.*
vmeru...@gmail.com <mailto:vmeru...@gmail.com>
http://sites.google.com/site/vmerunka
*Department of Information Engineering*
/Faculty of Economics and Management/
Czech University of Life Sciences in Prague
*Department of Software Engineering in Economy*
/Faculty of Nuclear Sciences and Physical Engineering/
Czech Technical University in Prague
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: slavic, baltoslavic or similar indoeuropean zonal conlangs intel
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:47 pm ((PST))
Is Jan really working with you on this project? I haven't seen him post for
some time. I wondered what he was up to.
Adam
2010/12/2 Vojt�ch Merunka <vmeru...@gmail.com>
> Hello everybody,
>
> Do You work on some Slavic (or similar) zonal conlang, which might be
> intelligible for ordinary people from some the indo-european group of
> nations? Our language is Novoslovienskij (
> https://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/faq), but as our colleague
> Jan van Stenbergen wrote: "Like many other large language families, the
> Slavic languages have inspired language creators to build an artificial
> Slavic language. Either just for fun (a hypothetical North Slavic language,
> for instance), or with the purpose of creating a language understandable for
> speakers of different Slavic languages. During the course of history, many
> attempts have been made at a Slavic inter-language. "
>
> Look at his collection of about 60 Slavic conlangs:
> http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/constructed_slavic_languages.html
>
> thank You
>
> V.
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *assoc. prof. Vojt�ch Merunka, Ph.D.*
> vmeru...@gmail.com <mailto:vmeru...@gmail.com>
> http://sites.google.com/site/vmerunka
>
> *Department of Information Engineering*
> /Faculty of Economics and Management/
> Czech University of Life Sciences in Prague
>
> *Department of Software Engineering in Economy*
> /Faculty of Nuclear Sciences and Physical Engineering/
> Czech Technical University in Prague
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: slavic, baltoslavic or similar indoeuropean zonal conlangs intel
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:01 am ((PST))
>Do You work on some Slavic (or similar) zonal conlang, which might be
>intelligible for ordinary people from some the indo-european group of
>nations? [...]
>Look at his collection of about 60 Slavic conlangs:
>http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/constructed_slavic_languages.html
Are they all auxilary languages? On CALS I have stumbled upon a very
interesting Slavic artlang, Novegradian:
http://cals.conlang.org/language/novegradian/
*Novegrad is an auto-denominative, cognate to Russian Novgorod. This was a
medieval city and state in Northern Russia, a kind of republic with an
assembly, engaged in trade relations with the Hanseatic league. It had a
specific dialect which for example lacked the Slavic second palatalization
and had other interesting features. Eventually, Novgorod has lost in a power
struggle to Moscow and its speech went extinct.
This conlang seems to deal with an alternative history where Novgorod has
survived as an independent state and experienced a development similar to
Belarus or the Ukraine.
It comes with a comprehensive grammar:
http://www.veche.net/grammar/index.html
And even a website of the imagined modern state:
http://www.veche.net/
I can only congratulate the author, whoever he is, I found this a very
interesting and enjoyable conlang project.
>Our language is Novoslovienskij (
>https://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/faq)
It works amazingly well, I could understand everything, Russian being one of
my two mothertongues. Normally, I can read other Slavic languages very well,
but listening comprehension is much more difficult. If speakers of other
Slavic languages can understand it just as well, then it really does the
trick, although I can imagine that Bulgarian speakers will still find the
highly inflecting nature difficult.
In the youtube video you say that Polish and Russian are far from the Slavic
average and cannot become the fundament of a common language. Then what do
you actually consider an average Slavic language?
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Endangered Alphabets Project
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2010 11:26 am ((PST))
Well that's cool. Champlain College is right here in Vermont. Very
cool when a project like this is being coordinated by someone that
close. Thanks for sharing that!
On 12/2/2010 2:16 PM, Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:<lingu...@linguistlist.org>
> Date: Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 9:07 AM
> Subject: 21.4845, FYI: Endangered Alphabets Project
> To: lingu...@listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> LINGUIST List: Vol-21-4845. Thu Dec 02 2010. ISSN: 1068 - 4875.
>
>
> The Endangered Alphabets Project consists of an exhibition of alphabet
> carvings and a recently published book. The project is the first-ever
> attempt to address the issue of alphabet endangerment. Writing has become
> so dominated by a small number of global cultures that the estimated 6,000
> world languages are written in fewer than 100 alphabets. Moreover, fully a
> third are endangered. On a global scale, writing is already dominated by as
> few as five major alphabets: Latin, Arabic, Cyrillic, Chinese and Japanese.
>
> For more information on the Endangered Alphabets Project, please visit:
>
> http://www.endangeredalphabets.com
>
> Additionally, work on a similar carving project has begun. The project will
> result in endangered scripts being combined with an endangered languages
> poetry project. These carvings will then be displayed throughout the U.S.
> and in other countries. Translators will be needed to assist with the
> following languages: Redjang, Bamum, Balinese, Manchu, Nushu,
> Ranjana/Lantsa, N'Ko, Buhid, Tai Dam, Javanese, and Maldivian/Thaana. For
> more information about this work-in-progress, please contact Tim Brookes at
> broo...@champlain.edu.
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> LINGUIST List: Vol-21-4845
> ----------------------------------------------------------
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Endangered Alphabets Project
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" arth...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2010 11:28 am ((PST))
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <lingu...@linguistlist.org>
Date: Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 9:07 AM
Subject: 21.4845, FYI: Endangered Alphabets Project
To: lingu...@listserv.linguistlist.org
LINGUIST List: Vol-21-4845. Thu Dec 02 2010. ISSN: 1068 - 4875.
The Endangered Alphabets Project consists of an exhibition of alphabet
carvings and a recently published book. The project is the first-ever
attempt to address the issue of alphabet endangerment. Writing has become
so dominated by a small number of global cultures that the estimated 6,000
world languages are written in fewer than 100 alphabets. Moreover, fully a
third are endangered. On a global scale, writing is already dominated by as
few as five major alphabets: Latin, Arabic, Cyrillic, Chinese and Japanese.
For more information on the Endangered Alphabets Project, please visit:
http://www.endangeredalphabets.com
Additionally, work on a similar carving project has begun. The project will
result in endangered scripts being combined with an endangered languages
poetry project. These carvings will then be displayed throughout the U.S.
and in other countries. Translators will be needed to assist with the
following languages: Redjang, Bamum, Balinese, Manchu, Nushu,
Ranjana/Lantsa, N'Ko, Buhid, Tai Dam, Javanese, and Maldivian/Thaana. For
more information about this work-in-progress, please contact Tim Brookes at
broo...@champlain.edu.
-----------------------------------------------------------
LINGUIST List: Vol-21-4845
----------------------------------------------------------
Messages in this topic (2)
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