There are 14 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: A New Lang is Born From: Padraic Brown 1b. Re: A New Lang is Born From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews 1c. Re: A New Lang is Born From: Virginia Keys 1d. Re: A New Lang is Born From: Michael Everson 1e. Re: A New Lang is Born From: Eugene Oh 1f. Re: A New Lang is Born From: Michael Everson 1g. Re: A New Lang is Born From: Virginia Keys 2a. Re: Nominals in Verb-heavy Languages From: Logan Kearsley 3a. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system From: Paul Bennett 3b. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system From: Michael Everson 3c. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system From: Paul Bennett 4a. Re: OT Syllable structure, German From: Armin Buch 5a. Re: OT Syllable structure, German From: Carsten Becker 5b. Re: OT Syllable structure, German From: Carsten Becker Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1a. Re: A New Lang is Born Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 7:56 pm ((PST)) --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for keeping me in the loop. No worries! I don't know how profound your (physical) blindness is, but I think we (conlangers) often lose sight of how very visual our art is. You would think it's primarily aural -- it's about language, after all and what is language but a means of spoken communication! And of course, writing systems are almost exclusively for the sighted. But we rarely speak our languages and rarely record ourselves reading texts. And few writing systems are appropriate for reading by any means except the eyes. I know some have recorded their languages -- I still treasure Sally Cave's rendition of Teonaht poetry. And of course, you can hear Tolkien reciting Namarie online. Loveliness embodied! (He has a pretty good singing voice as well!) But for most of us, our conlangs are composed as visual artifacts, are delivered (via the web) as visual artifacts and are discussed, enjoyed and shared here as visual artifacts. Padraic > Nicole Thompson-Andrews > > Pen name Mellissa Green > Budding novelist and Haiku and acrostic writer > > > > > > Tweet me > > > > @greenNovelist > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Padraic Brown" <elemti...@yahoo.com> > To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu> > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 10:39 PM > Subject: Re: A New Lang is Born > > > > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Virginia Keys <virginiak...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> Ok, Pics are up here: > >> http://pics.conlang.org./v/Shateyo_2dws/ > > > > Wow! I like it a lot! > > For Nicole: it's like ivy growing up a wall! > > > > Padraic > Messages in this topic (14) ________________________________________________________________________ 1b. Re: A New Lang is Born Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 8:14 pm ((PST)) Yes, I'm stuck in a sighted world, not that I'm the only blind, but we have to re-invent the wheel. I was given too much oxygen so lost my sight at about three months. I still plan to get my hands on my medical records, as I researched my condition when I was at an Independ living center some years back. Sadly, I've been kicked out out of that center twice and the most recent one I was at. I guess I just made Conlang history. When I was younger, I use to put words in fractions, I don't know if that counts as a Conlang. Could that work as a way to teach Yemoran children math? Nicole Thompson-Andrews Pen name Mellissa Green Budding novelist and Haiku and acrostic writer Tweet me @greenNovelist ----- Original Message ----- From: "Padraic Brown" <elemti...@yahoo.com> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 10:56 PM Subject: Re: A New Lang is Born > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews > <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks for keeping me in the loop. > > No worries! > > I don't know how profound your (physical) blindness is, but I think we > (conlangers) often lose sight of how very visual our art is. You would > think it's primarily aural -- it's about language, after all and what is > language but a means of spoken communication! And of course, writing > systems are almost exclusively for the sighted. But we rarely speak our > languages and rarely record ourselves reading texts. And few writing > systems are appropriate for reading by any means except the eyes. I know > some have recorded their languages -- I still treasure Sally Cave's > rendition of Teonaht poetry. And of course, you can hear Tolkien reciting > Namarie online. Loveliness embodied! (He has a pretty good singing voice > as well!) > > But for most of us, our conlangs are composed as visual artifacts, are > delivered (via the web) as visual artifacts and are discussed, enjoyed > and shared here as visual artifacts. > > Padraic > >> Nicole Thompson-Andrews >> >> Pen name Mellissa Green >> Budding novelist and Haiku and acrostic writer >> >> >> >> >> >> Tweet me >> >> >> >> @greenNovelist >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Padraic Brown" <elemti...@yahoo.com> >> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu> >> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 10:39 PM >> Subject: Re: A New Lang is Born >> >> >> > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Virginia Keys <virginiak...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Ok, Pics are up here: >> >> http://pics.conlang.org./v/Shateyo_2dws/ >> > >> > Wow! I like it a lot! >> > For Nicole: it's like ivy growing up a wall! >> > >> > Padraic >> Messages in this topic (14) ________________________________________________________________________ 1c. Re: A New Lang is Born Posted by: "Virginia Keys" virginiak...@gmail.com Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 8:55 pm ((PST)) Thanks, and I hope so but I can't really find out until I find mine again. :) On Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:45:19 -0600, Patrick Dunn <pwd...@gmail.com> wrote: >Gorgeousity and yum yum yum. It looks like you could write it very >effectively and efficiently with a calligraphy pen. Messages in this topic (14) ________________________________________________________________________ 1d. Re: A New Lang is Born Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:50 am ((PST)) On 4 Mar 2012, at 03:45, Patrick Dunn wrote: > Gorgeousity and yum yum yum. It looks like you could write it very > effectively and efficiently with a calligraphy pen. But how legible would it be writing notes with a ballpoint or pencil? That is also a consideration in writing system design. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ Messages in this topic (14) ________________________________________________________________________ 1e. Re: A New Lang is Born Posted by: "Eugene Oh" un.do...@gmail.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 4:29 am ((PST)) Not if the culture it's designed for writes with a broad blade, or carves (eg Latin serif script) Eugene Sent from my iPhone On 4 Mar 2012, at 10:49, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com> wrote: > On 4 Mar 2012, at 03:45, Patrick Dunn wrote: > >> Gorgeousity and yum yum yum. It looks like you could write it very >> effectively and efficiently with a calligraphy pen. > > But how legible would it be writing notes with a ballpoint or pencil? That is > also a consideration in writing system design. > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ Messages in this topic (14) ________________________________________________________________________ 1f. Re: A New Lang is Born Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 4:46 am ((PST)) On 4 Mar 2012, at 12:29, Eugene Oh wrote: > Not if the culture it's designed for writes with a broad blade, or carves (eg > Latin serif script) I should think that the true test of a robust writing system is its ability to be written in a number of media, from sand to pencils. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ Messages in this topic (14) ________________________________________________________________________ 1g. Re: A New Lang is Born Posted by: "Virginia Keys" virginiak...@gmail.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:51 am ((PST)) I think that something like a calligraphy pen would be ideal for this writing system, but I actually wrote these examples using a fine point pen. It is certainly less convenient, especially when filling in the strokes to make them more easily identifiable, but it is possible. I have thought about reducing the script for faster use with a finer point, but each time I try I don't like the results. Messages in this topic (14) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. Re: Nominals in Verb-heavy Languages Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 8:24 pm ((PST)) On 28 February 2012 12:39, Logan Kearsley <chronosur...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 27 February 2012 13:51, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote: [..] >> My impression is that, in the verb-prominent native languages of North >> America, one of the common strategies for naming particular objects is just >> nominalizing a whole verb phrase, with whatever necessary modifiers in it. >> Along the lines of "ink" = 'writing-tools are filled with it'. > > Indeed it is; unfortunately, I can't find a good dictionary with > morphological information in it to see how those nominalizations are > formed. Well, I still haven't found a good dictionary, but I have learned a lot more about Salishan and how those languages do their nominalizations, and if I can figure out the right sort of lexical bases for it, I may end up using this strategy from time to time. > On 27 February 2012 14:47, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones > <jeff.rol...@gmail.com> wrote: >> You could just have a verb that means "to rock" or "to be a rock", and then >> syntax or morphology which makes it clear when the lexeme is being used in >> the nominal sense, > > I've taken that approach to form adjectives- making adjectival > concepts into verb roots, which have derivations for the quality-noun > (e.g., red = red-ness) and an attributive (red = red-ish). > > But it feels to me like that strategy just wants to be used for > qualities and other abstract things. There's a big difference between > having a verb for "to be happy" and a verb for "to be a rock". > > I'll have to think about it some more; that approach could certainly > work for some things, but it just doesn't quite feel right. This idea is also growing on me, in slightly modified form. I've already got multiple derivational classes, with one of the distinctions between them being roots that can take focus arguments and roots that can't, the latter group being divided into roots for which a focus doesn't make sense and root s for which the focus is implicit in the root itself. Noun roots could easily be represented as instances of that last class, with actual lexical nouns being the "action nominal" (though that particular description of it doesn't really fit in this case) derivation, roughly equivalent to a gerund for the verby roots and a quality nominal for the adjectivy roots. On 29 February 2012 02:27, Peter Cyrus <pcy...@alivox.net> wrote: > My big words were just masking a small thought. I was thinking of things > like English "telephone pole", where "pole" indicates the structure, the > how, and "telephone" indicates the function, the why. Your verbs seem to > indicate function well, but you're lacking the vocabulary to distinguish > the various contributions that pen, pencil and ink make to writing. Ah, I see. That, however, requires actually having pre-existing nominals to put into the "structure" slot. I guess that's kind of what I'm going for with the classifier idea. -l. Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 3a. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system Posted by: "Paul Bennett" paul.w.benn...@gmail.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:06 am ((PST)) On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 19:14:22 -0500, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com> wrote: > On 4 Mar 2012, at 00:03, Paul Bennett wrote: > >> http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf > > Are you using only encoded characters? I used a few combining characters for the macrons on the romanization, but it's all bona fide Unicode. I also had to struggle with the combining macron below on the Ge'ez characters. Libre Office crashes hard if you try to mix & match character sets, so I emulated it with underlining. I'll start preparing some actual example texts right now. -- Paul Messages in this topic (17) ________________________________________________________________________ 3b. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:54 am ((PST)) On 4 Mar 2012, at 10:05, Paul Bennett wrote: > I also had to struggle with the combining macron below on the Ge'ez > characters. Libre Office crashes hard if you try to mix & match character > sets, so I emulated it with underlining. That should not be the case. Combining marks inherit What you need, of course, is to make sure that a combining macron below occurs in your Ethiopic font. Otherwise LibreOffice will substitute a combining macron below from another font which may be your difficulty. Or use other Ethiopic characters that don't need a combining macron below. *Or* use the combining Ethiopic characters which have been encoded (one, two, or three dots above). http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1200.pdf http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1380.pdf http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2D80.pdf http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/UAB00.pdf Styled-text underlining is a bad emulation. :-( Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ Messages in this topic (17) ________________________________________________________________________ 3c. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system Posted by: "Paul Bennett" paul.w.benn...@gmail.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 3:41 am ((PST)) On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 05:54:26 -0500, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com> wrote: > [U]se the combining Ethiopic characters which have been encoded (one, > two, or three dots above). >Styled-text underlining is a bad emulation. :-( I agree on both counts. Excellent advice. v0.2 is now up at http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf Work still very much in progress. -- Paul Messages in this topic (17) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 4a. Re: OT Syllable structure, German Posted by: "Armin Buch" armin.b...@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:08 am ((PST)) Am 04.03.2012 02:57, schrieb Eric Christopherson: > On Mar 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Armin Buch wrote: > >> - it does not include initial /tsv,kv/ and rare /sk,km/ (Skat, Khmer). /sts/ >> ("Szene", scene) is debatable; few people actually pronounce it that way. > > How do most pronounce it? Simply ['se:.n@] instead of ['stse:.n@], yet I've never encountered the more faithful* ['tse:.n@], so this is probably by influence of English (word-initial [s] is not native to German, orthographic "s" is /z/. mid-word, you have "ß", i.e. the "sz"-ligature, and "ss" for /s/). *) Input-output faithfulness, as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimality_Theory and other contraint-based accounts of phonology. Messages in this topic (11) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 5a. Re: OT Syllable structure, German Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:27 am ((PST)) On Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:53:58 +0100, Armin Buch <armin.b...@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote: >[hErps.t@s]. That doesn't work for speakers who vocalize post-consonantal /r/, though. It's [hɛɐ̯pst(ə)s] then, reducing the sequence by one consonant (although phonemically, the /r/ is still there, of course). Cheers, [kʰaːstⁿ] :P Messages in this topic (11) ________________________________________________________________________ 5b. Re: OT Syllable structure, German Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:30 am ((PST)) Meh, posting through the list's web interface (I'm on NOMAIL at the moment), all of the non-ASCII came through as &#;. I meant [hE6_^pst(@)s] and ["k_ha:st_n] respectively. --CB Messages in this topic (11) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/ <*> Your email settings: Digest Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join (Yahoo! 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