There are 17 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Garth Wallace
1b. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Peter Cyrus
1c. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Peter Cyrus
1d. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Peter Cyrus
1e. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Paul Bennett
1f. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Paul Bennett
2a. Sefdaanian calendar
From: Charlie Brickner
2b. Re: Sefdaanian calendar
From: Peter Cyrus
3a. OT: Tengwar font
From: Charlie Brickner
3b. Re: OT: Tengwar font
From: Krista Casada
3c. Re: OT: Tengwar font
From: Daniel Myers
3d. Re: OT: Tengwar font
From: Michael Everson
3e. Re: OT: Tengwar font
From: Carsten Becker
4a. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
From: CJ Miller
4b. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
From: Nikolay Ivankov
5a. NATLANG: Writing questions and answers in Hamer
From: Paul Bennett
5b. Re: NATLANG: Writing questions and answers in Hamer
From: Nikolay Ivankov
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 10:57 am ((PST))
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Paul Bennett <paul.w.benn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 06:40:50 -0500, Paul Bennett <paul.w.benn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> v5 is now up at
>
>
>> http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf
>>
>> Work still very much in progress.
>
>
> As I've been understanding more about the source text, I've been making some
> pretty noticeable changes to the orthographies, and there are some typo
> fixes in there too.
>
> Comments, questions, and suggestions more than welcome.
Idle thoughts: I wonder if a Hamer tengwar mode would work.
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" pcy...@alivox.net
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 1:31 pm ((PST))
You wrote /long after [+glottal]. Do you mean that glottalized vowels are
called "long", that they are long(er), or that some dialects express this
distinction as length instead of the glottalization/laryngealization?
By "umlaut", do you mean that u o a become ü ö ä? No, you mean the weaker
half of the root+suffix pair matches glottalization/laryngealization with
the stronger half, right? But plain always loses? And length disappears
in liaison?
Does that mean that e: actually shortens when followed by another e?
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Garth Wallace <gwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Paul Bennett <paul.w.benn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 06:40:50 -0500, Paul Bennett <
> paul.w.benn...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > v5 is now up at
> >
> >
> >> http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf
> >>
> >> Work still very much in progress.
> >
> >
> > As I've been understanding more about the source text, I've been making
> some
> > pretty noticeable changes to the orthographies, and there are some typo
> > fixes in there too.
> >
> > Comments, questions, and suggestions more than welcome.
>
> Idle thoughts: I wonder if a Hamer tengwar mode would work.
>
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" pcy...@alivox.net
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 2:10 pm ((PST))
And is it clear what is meant by glottalization and laryngealization?
Those terms are usually both on the closed side of modal voice. One would
think it would be easier to distinguish one on either side, say slack and
stiff, or hollow and harsh, or ATR/RTR.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:30 PM, Peter Cyrus <pcy...@alivox.net> wrote:
> You wrote /long after [+glottal]. Do you mean that glottalized vowels are
> called "long", that they are long(er), or that some dialects express this
> distinction as length instead of the glottalization/laryngealization?
>
> By "umlaut", do you mean that u o a become ü ö ä? No, you mean the weaker
> half of the root+suffix pair matches glottalization/laryngealization with
> the stronger half, right? But plain always loses? And length disappears
> in liaison?
>
> Does that mean that e: actually shortens when followed by another e?
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Garth Wallace <gwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Paul Bennett <paul.w.benn...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 06:40:50 -0500, Paul Bennett <
>> paul.w.benn...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > v5 is now up at
>> >
>> >
>> >> http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf
>> >>
>> >> Work still very much in progress.
>> >
>> >
>> > As I've been understanding more about the source text, I've been making
>> some
>> > pretty noticeable changes to the orthographies, and there are some typo
>> > fixes in there too.
>> >
>> > Comments, questions, and suggestions more than welcome.
>>
>> Idle thoughts: I wonder if a Hamer tengwar mode would work.
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" pe...@shwa.org
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 8:33 pm ((PST))
If Cat II introduces an /h/ epenthetically, maybe it's breathy.
By the way, the Pan-Nigerian alphabet (and Afrika Alphabet and African
Reference Alphabet) have letters you could use instead of diacritics in
your romanization. They're in Unicode and several fonts.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Peter Cyrus <pcy...@alivox.net> wrote:
> And is it clear what is meant by glottalization and laryngealization?
> Those terms are usually both on the closed side of modal voice. One would
> think it would be easier to distinguish one on either side, say slack and
> stiff, or hollow and harsh, or ATR/RTR.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:30 PM, Peter Cyrus <pcy...@alivox.net> wrote:
>
>> You wrote /long after [+glottal]. Do you mean that glottalized vowels
>> are called "long", that they are long(er), or that some dialects express
>> this distinction as length instead of the glottalization/laryngealization?
>>
>> By "umlaut", do you mean that u o a become ü ö ä? No, you mean the
>> weaker half of the root+suffix pair matches glottalization/laryngealization
>> with the stronger half, right? But plain always loses? And length
>> disappears in liaison?
>>
>> Does that mean that e: actually shortens when followed by another e?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Garth Wallace <gwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Paul Bennett <paul.w.benn...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 06:40:50 -0500, Paul Bennett <
>>> paul.w.benn...@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > v5 is now up at
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf
>>> >>
>>> >> Work still very much in progress.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > As I've been understanding more about the source text, I've been
>>> making some
>>> > pretty noticeable changes to the orthographies, and there are some typo
>>> > fixes in there too.
>>> >
>>> > Comments, questions, and suggestions more than welcome.
>>>
>>> Idle thoughts: I wonder if a Hamer tengwar mode would work.
>>>
>>
>>
>
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" paul.w.benn...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 2:26 am ((PST))
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:30:58 -0500, Peter Cyrus <pcy...@alivox.net> wrote:
> You wrote /long after [+glottal]. Do you mean that glottalized vowels
> are
> called "long", that they are long(er), or that some dialects express this
> distinction as length instead of the glottalization/laryngealization?
By the book (and it turns out, on a re-read, I had the two categories
muddled up in my head) ...
"The two categories differ from each other in terms of voice quality in
much the same way as has been noted for certain Nilotic or "Paranilotic"
languages".
"Category I vowels are "Open", "unraised" and pronounced with restricted
pharynx and "unadvanced," tongue root position. The constricted pharynx
has the effect of producing a slight glottal stop before initial vowels if
these are pronounced emphatically. The Category I vowels have a slightly
"harder" voice quality in contrast with the Category II vowels".
"Category II vowels are "Close" (except for [a]), "raised," and pronounced
with open pharynx and "advanced" tongue root position. The open pharynx
has the effect of producing a slight aspiration before initial vowels
heard as a laryngeal fricative if these are pronounced emphatically. In
contrast with Category I vowels, Category II vowels have more of a
"hollow" voice quality".
"Category I vowels are intrinsically shorter than their corresponding
Category II vowels, and umlauts which fall between the two categories have
a length correspondingly intermediate".
"Stressed syllables are slightly longer than unstressed syllables".
All that in mind, it's time for some cut & paste work on my PDF, I reckon.
> And length disappears in liaison?
"The juxtaposition of two vowels produces diphthongs, contractions, and
elisions. The length of these vowels sound like less than the sum of all
the morae of constituent parts".
I've been calling these juxtapositions Category IV in my system.
> Does that mean that e: actually shortens when followed by another e?
It means, I think, that /e/ + /e/ becomes shorter than /e:/ but longer
than /e/, where "long" and "short" depend on the category and stress.
> By "umlaut", do you mean that u o a become � � �? No, you mean the
> weaker
> half of the root+suffix pair matches glottalization/laryngealization with
> the stronger half, right? But plain always loses?
I mean that the stronger half retains its original Category, while the
weaker half in cases of disharmony becomes plain (what I've been calling
Category III in my system). There are no roots or suffixes that are
intrinsically Category III -- everything is Category I or II, and suffixes
are either Weak or Strong (roots seeming to be between Weak and Strong).
Like I said in my original message... "You can't *make* this stuff up!"
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" paul.w.benn...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 3:22 am ((PST))
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:44:10 -0500, Paul Bennett
<paul.w.benn...@gmail.com> wrote:
Version 6 is now up, with repaired descriptions of the phonology of vowels.
> http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf
>
> Work still very much in progress.
>
> As I've been understanding more about the source text, I've been making
> some pretty noticeable changes to the orthographies, and there are some
> typo fixes in there too.
>
> Comments, questions, and suggestions more than welcome.
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Sefdaanian calendar
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 12:48 pm ((PST))
In doing research for my Sefdaanian calendar, I learned a new word:
epagomenal. Epagomenal days are days within a solar calendar that are
outside any regular month. I�ve decided to go this route with the Sefdaanian
calendar. After the twelfth month, five intercalary days are added (six in a
leap year). These days are outside of any of the twelve calendar months. I
call them inserted days (�n�aamr�es). In non-leap years these would
constitute only a 5-day week. Thus, the sixth day of the 6-day week is
omitted in thse years. These five days are 12/17 through 12/21.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Sefdaanian calendar
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" pcy...@alivox.net
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 1:22 pm ((PST))
The Shwa calendar does the same thing, but the extra days are distributed
throughout the year as holidays.
http://www.shwa.org/social.htm
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Charlie Brickner <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
> wrote:
> In doing research for my Sefdaanian calendar, I learned a new word:
> epagomenal. Epagomenal days are days within a solar calendar that are
> outside any regular month. I’ve decided to go this route with the
> Sefdaanian
> calendar. After the twelfth month, five intercalary days are added (six
> in a
> leap year). These days are outside of any of the twelve calendar months.
> I
> call them inserted days (ènðaamráes). In non-leap years these would
> constitute only a 5-day week. Thus, the sixth day of the 6-day week is
> omitted in thse years. These five days are 12/17 through 12/21.
>
> Charlie
>
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. OT: Tengwar font
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 12:55 pm ((PST))
Can anyone recommend a site from which I can download the Tengwar font
for WordPerfect? I'm rather paranoid about downloading sites!
Does anyone know if any of the fonts included in WordPerfect has a Tengwar
font?
Charlie
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: OT: Tengwar font
Posted by: "Krista Casada" kcas...@uark.edu
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 12:58 pm ((PST))
I'd love to get the same info for MS Word or Open Office Writer.
Krista C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Brickner <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012 2:55 pm
Subject: OT: Tengwar font
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Can anyone recommend a site from which I can download the Tengwar
> font
> for WordPerfect? I'm rather paranoid about downloading sites!
>
> Does anyone know if any of the fonts included in WordPerfect has a
> Tengwar
> font?
>
> Charlie
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: OT: Tengwar font
Posted by: "Daniel Myers" edo...@medievalcookery.com
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 1:15 pm ((PST))
There are several Tengwar fonts at dafont.com - I've never had any
problems with fonts I've downloaded from there.
http://www.dafont.com/search.php?psize=m&q=tengwar
- Doc
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Charlie Brickner <caeruleancent...@yahoo.com>
> Date: Mon, March 05, 2012 3:55 pm
>
> Can anyone recommend a site from which I can download the Tengwar font
> for WordPerfect? I'm rather paranoid about downloading sites!
>
> Does anyone know if any of the fonts included in WordPerfect has a Tengwar
> font?
>
> Charlie
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: OT: Tengwar font
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 1:44 pm ((PST))
Everson Mono has a monowidth Tengwar font using the consensus PUA encoding.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3e. Re: OT: Tengwar font
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:07 pm ((PST))
J. 'Mach' Wust (who also was active on CONLANG-L a couple of years ago) has
some Tengwar fonts which you can download here:
http://freetengwar.sourceforge.net/
-- CB
Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
Posted by: "CJ Miller" jpol...@trioptimum.com
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 11:06 pm ((PST))
What, though, of syrinx-bearing humanoids, like my conpeople, the safir?
Perhaps a pitch accent on steroids?
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 4:45 am ((PST))
On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:05 AM, CJ Miller <jpol...@trioptimum.com> wrote:
> What, though, of syrinx-bearing humanoids, like my conpeople, the safir?
> Perhaps a pitch accent on steroids?
>
Why not? Why only? As as it was said, syrinx-bearing creatures are able to
produce a large amount of sounds. Due to the info I was able to find, some
birds can even produce double pitch by making a different configuration of
the two tracheae. And there are beak and tongue in addition to that.
As to me, I've already decided to make all the peoples in my conworld Tae
have syrinx, until I find something even more exotic in addition to their
heartlungs, open circulatory system and whatever interesting I'm going to
find after reading about brain and fungi.
Though I find what Tolkien did with Westron/Adūni a perfect idea. I can
neither speak like peoples of Tae, nor, say, represent a double pitch -
possible to birds - in my writings, but still I'm able to translate their
speech to human. No matter what were the fantastic-real changes - most
probably, I'll just never know - but I'll be able to evolve the translation.
Best luck with Your conworld!
Kolya
Messages in this topic (17)
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________________________________________________________________________
5a. NATLANG: Writing questions and answers in Hamer
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" paul.w.benn...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 4:04 am ((PST))
As stated in the text, yes/no questions in Hamer are identical in lexemes
and word order to affirmative statements, with a rising pitch on the word
being asked about. WH-questions seem to take a WH-word, and have the
rising pitch on the (sentence-final) verb.
It makes sense to me to mark the rising pitch in yes/no questions by
placing the question mark immediately after the word being asked about,
and for WH-questions, to place it at the end of the sentence.
Also as stated in the text, negative statements are identical in lexemes
and word order to affirmative statements, with a falling pitch on the word
being denied.
I think, for isomorphy and clarity, I need to invent a "negation" sign to
be placed after negative words.
I'm thinking right now of one of ¿, ‽, or ¬, representing "unquestion",
"struck-out question", or "the symbol used in math". If I go with the
last, I may place it before rather than after the negative word, but I
think that breaks isomorphy and thereby the principle of least surprise.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: NATLANG: Writing questions and answers in Hamer
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 5:03 am ((PST))
On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Paul Bennett <paul.w.benn...@gmail.com>wrote:
> As stated in the text, yes/no questions in Hamer are identical in lexemes
> and word order to affirmative statements, with a rising pitch on the word
> being asked about. WH-questions seem to take a WH-word, and have the rising
> pitch on the (sentence-final) verb.
>
> It makes sense to me to mark the rising pitch in yes/no questions by
> placing the question mark immediately after the word being asked about, and
> for WH-questions, to place it at the end of the sentence.
>
> Also as stated in the text, negative statements are identical in lexemes
> and word order to affirmative statements, with a falling pitch on the word
> being denied.
>
> I think, for isomorphy and clarity, I need to invent a "negation" sign to
> be placed after negative words.
>
> I'm thinking right now of one of ¿, ‽, or ¬, representing "unquestion",
> "struck-out question", or "the symbol used in math". If I go with the last,
> I may place it before rather than after the negative word, but I think that
> breaks isomorphy and thereby the principle of least surprise.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> --
> Paul
>
No idea how is it done in other languages, but I'd really choose ¬. Much
more for professional reasons :) And possibly even place it before the verb.
Messages in this topic (2)
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