There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)
From: Patrick Dunn
1.2. Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)
From: Roman Rausch
1.3. Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)
From: George Corley
2a. Re: Anthropomorphized Abstractions in Animacy-Sensitive Languages
From: George Corley
3.1. Re: Happy Conlang Day!
From: Mia Harper (Soderquist)
4. Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
From: John Erickson
5.1. Re: Calligraphy (was: Speedtalks and briefscripts)
From: R A Brown
5.2. Re: Calligraphy (was: Speedtalks and briefscripts)
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
6.1. Re: Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
6.2. Re: Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story
From: And Rosta
6.3. Re: Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story
From: Padraic Brown
7a. Brief Sound Change Question
From: Sam Stutter
7b. Re: Brief Sound Change Question
From: Sam Stutter
7c. Re: Brief Sound Change Question
From: Sam Stutter
7d. Re: Brief Sound Change Question
From: And Rosta
Messages
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1.1. Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:11 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de>wrote:
>
>
> I know that you are a Platonic idealist, which has the
> consequence that, for you, absolute beauty must exist.
> In my opinion, this philosophy is unable to cope with
> evolution and creativity (other than by providing a
> Form for everything that could theoretically have
> evolved or been invented but never is, which seems
> quite ridiculous to me) and thus fallacious.
>
>
Would you explain why Platonic realism is incompatible with evolution? I'm
having a hard time seeing the jump in logic here.
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (123)
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1.2. Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:45 am ((PDT))
We had this discussion already in the context of determining masterpiece
conlangs and my opinion is the same:
Absolute beauty simply comes from the consensus of many people which averages
out all the individual quirks. This may be done regionally or globally.
Monumental Nazi art would be an example of a regional average: A lot of people
may have agreed it was beautiful, but people from outside didn't.
I find using films as an example is a bit difficult, though, because they often
are such complex products of culture that you need to understand the culture
first, and then learn to understand the films. But take visual art, for
example: Is there any denying that most people on the planet wouldn't agree
that, say, Aztec or Ancient Egyptian art is beautiful, even though they weren't
raised in those cultures? That's a global consensus and it's my definition of
absolute beauty.
Messages in this topic (123)
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1.3. Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:49 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Roman Rausch <ara...@mail.ru> wrote:
> We had this discussion already in the context of determining masterpiece
> conlangs and my opinion is the same:
> Absolute beauty simply comes from the consensus of many people which
> averages out all the individual quirks. This may be done regionally or
> globally. Monumental Nazi art would be an example of a regional average: A
> lot of people may have agreed it was beautiful, but people from outside
> didn't.
> I find using films as an example is a bit difficult, though, because they
> often are such complex products of culture that you need to understand the
> culture first, and then learn to understand the films. But take visual art,
> for example: Is there any denying that most people on the planet wouldn't
> agree that, say, Aztec or Ancient Egyptian art is beautiful, even though
> they weren't raised in those cultures? That's a global consensus and it's
> my definition of absolute beauty.
>
Those are both cultures held in high esteem for historical reasons, though.
Certainly there are things to criticize in both as well. Not everyone
will like the bizarre body contortions seen in Ancient Egyptian art, if
they really took the time to judge it on its own merits. And of course, I
don't really find some of the sexual imagery that beautiful -- I prefer
something more subtle than a god that is always depicted with an exposed,
erect penis.
Messages in this topic (123)
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2a. Re: Anthropomorphized Abstractions in Animacy-Sensitive Languages
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:18 pm ((PDT))
Makes me think what the translation would be for the Iron Islands saying
(from Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire): "What is dead can never
die, but rises harder and stronger!"
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Anthony Miles <mamercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I erred - the actual line is "Goodness cannot die", so the awkward Siye
> translation would be:
> Nimu ilipuyamnu (with an animate noun) or
> Nimu elipuyamnu (with an inanimate noun).
> I have thought about it, however, and decided to use the idiom
> Nimu iwa like-me-pu ekimpukimu.
> Nimu-# iwa like-me-pu e-kim-pu-ki-me-u
> good-ABSOLUTIVE thing death-POSSESSIVE-EQUATIVE
> 3.INANIMATE-be/stand-SG-DIR (AT)-IMPERFECTIVE-NEGATIVE
> Goodness is not a thing of death.
> Death is not an inherent characteristic of goodness.
>
> So that's solved, but I had a different question for the List:
>
> The Siye core cases for A, S, and P are:
> NOM/ABS -#
> ERG -ya, -na
> ACC -a
>
> Simplifying somewhat, the ergative is used for a nominal agent of a
> transitive verb. The accusative is used for the pronominal patient of a
> transitive verb. So, those names and functions make sense. The problems
> come in in the nominative-absolutive, which I have been treating as two
> cases with identical marking. The nominative is used for the pronominal
> agent of a transitive verb and the pronominal subject of an intransitive
> verb. The absolutive is used for the nominal patient of a transitive verb
> and the nominal subject of an intransitive verb. In the current version of
> Siye, it is possible to have a zero-marked pronominal nominative agent and
> a zero-marked nominal absolutive patient in a transitive clause. So far,
> this has not been a problem in terms of composition or comprehension, since
> verbal A/P marking and constituent order are also used in Siye. HOWEVER,
> the term Nominative-Absolutive is long and unwieldy, and the native
> grammatical tradition would likely analyze the zero-marking as a single
> case with multiple uses. Would it be better to call the zero-marked case
> Nominative or Absolutive? I am leaning towards Nominative, since a
> Nominative case could cover both the pronominal A of a transitive clause
> and the S (pronominal and nominal) of an intransitive clause. I have not
> decided, however, so I would like to know what others have done in similar
> situations where the names of the cases are insufficient and inaccurate.
>
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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3.1. Re: Happy Conlang Day!
Posted by: "Mia Harper (Soderquist)" gloriouswaf...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:23 pm ((PDT))
Douglas Koller wrote:
> Ah, ea-luna -- I wax nostaligic! Is it still growing and developing or has it
> retired and moved to Aruba?
>
> Kou
It had been retired for several years when I pulled it back out last
year. It's undergoing reconstruction and revival. I've got a soft spot
for it still, even if it does seem to be impervious to improvement.
Mia.
Messages in this topic (37)
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4. Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
Posted by: "John Erickson" john.erickson.so...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:32 pm ((PDT))
In my language FairyLang, nouns are marked for tense, instead of verbs.
Comments, critique and suggestions are very welcome.
http://fairylang.livejournal.com/42005.html
http://fairylang.livejournal.com/42276.html
http://fairylang.livejournal.com/42616.html
Basically it goes like this: Tense marking on a subject is relative to the
speaker and indicates the overall tense of the sentence, marking on a
direct object is relative to the subject and indicates aspect (perfect,
imperfect, predictive/intentional). And I've just added a third tier, that
some indirect objects can also be marked for tense, which is relative to
the thing being modified.
For example possessives like:
dakhu yb myn
house of me(pres)
my house
... can be marked to make:
dakhu yb miyn
house of me(past)
house that used to be mine
dakhu yb mayn
house of me(fut)
house that will be mine
Messages in this topic (1)
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5.1. Re: Calligraphy (was: Speedtalks and briefscripts)
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:02 am ((PDT))
On 19/07/2012 22:56, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:00:35 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> I did have a quick look in my "Gregg Shorthand Manual
>> Simplified" and, quite honestly, I think that even with
>> my somewhat rusty calligraphic skills I could, using
>> proper calligraphic pens, make quite a good job of
>> producing versions comparable to some of the things we
>> see in Arabic script.
I'm tempted to go & get those calligraphic pens :)
>> I do concede that Pitman, with its awkward angles and
>> differentiation between thick & thin lines presents
>> more of a challenge; but I suspect Adam could make a
>> fair job of it ;)
>
> I doubt it, as I said, on the grounds of having years of
> practical experience.
'Twould be more of a challenge, I agree. But I'm sure a
skilled calligrapher could do something.
> Here are some results I find somewhat satisfactory â
> though they bear no longer any resemblance to the
> original short hand system at all (Stolze-Schrey).
I don't know that system.
> They are pretty much con-scripts:
But that happens with shorthand anyway - they generally get
personalized. I think, for example, few practitioners of
Pitman shorthand ever write things out in full as George
Bernard Shaw did.
> http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/las_in_als.jpg
>http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/wand.jpg
>http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/widr_nix.png
> http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/unt_duh.png
>http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/nid_dischnalschti.png
Not so keen on the last one. Interestingly, they all appear
to be written in _columns_ like traditional Mongolian scripts.
Certainly I would produce something different, with
variation in thickness of line etc.
=======================================================
Once again I am in 100% agreement with Adam's latest email
"So if an Arabic calligrapher were a particular fan of
English Black Letter ..... "; and Padraic has shown far more
clearly than I have that western calligraphy is neither dead
nor bound by traditions dating from before printing.
Indeed, I think there is a case to be made out that western
calligraphy is currently _more innovative_ than tradition
bound calligraphies of Arabo-Persian tradition.
We all know, I think, the word 'calligraphy' is of Greek
origin. On checking, I find indeed that the word
καλλιγÏαÏία (kalligrahía) had already been coined by the
ancient Greeks, as had the verb καλλιγÏαÏεá¿Î½ (kalligrapheîn)
"to write calligraphically", and the person who practised
this art was a καλλίγÏαÏÎ¿Ï (kallígraphos).
Cave paintings show that humans had a drive to be artistic
long before writing had evolved. I imagine calligraphy is
as old as writing itself. IMHO it's *not* the script that
makes the calligrapher; _it is the creative mind of the
calligrapher that uses whatever script s/he has_.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
ζήÏÏ á¼¥ καλλιγÏαÏία
Messages in this topic (123)
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5.2. Re: Calligraphy (was: Speedtalks and briefscripts)
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:47 am ((PDT))
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:02:40 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>On 19/07/2012 22:56, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:00:35 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>>> I did have a quick look in my "Gregg Shorthand Manual
>>> Simplified" and, quite honestly, I think that even with
>>> my somewhat rusty calligraphic skills I could, using
>>> proper calligraphic pens, make quite a good job of
>>> producing versions comparable to some of the things we
>>> see in Arabic script.
>
>I'm tempted to go & get those calligraphic pens :)
Go for it. I would love to see the results! :)
>> They are pretty much con-scripts:
>
>But that happens with shorthand anyway - they generally get
>personalized.
To a certain extent, maybe. However, as any writing system, they lose their
point if nobody else can write them. Wikipedia claims that one of the criteria
for good Chinese calligraphy is clear readability (at least for those who have
studied the calligraphy styles). One common feature of the stenography samples
I have seen is that they are extremely carefully written (OK, they were not
speech script), which is also not so surprising since stenography requires a
much finer control of the stroke than other scripts. Even the tiniest deviation
will change a letter.
>> http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/las_in_als.jpg
>>http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/wand.jpg
>>http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/widr_nix.png
>> http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/unt_duh.png
>>http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/nid_dischnalschti.png
>
>Not so keen on the last one. Interestingly, they all appear
>to be written in _columns_ like traditional Mongolian scripts.
I also use to writing them horizontally (mirrored). I prefer the vertical
direction because I can cope better with the lack of a clear baseline in a
vertical direction than in a horizontal direction (in my opinion, that might be
different if I had the background of Arabic calligraphic tradition). Therefore,
I like the horizontal lines less:
http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/samples/dir_lyt.png
>Certainly I would produce something different, with
>variation in thickness of line etc.
That's a perfect example for what I call a calligraphic limitation. Many
shorthand systems (not Gregg) employ variation in thickness as a meaningful
part of the letters. That disallows (or severely hinders) its use as for
calligraphic technique. This is exactly the sort of things I have been talking
about when I referred to a scripts inherent suitability for calligraphy.
>Indeed, I think there is a case to be made out that western
>calligraphy is currently _more innovative_ than tradition
>bound calligraphies of Arabo-Persian tradition.
I don't know about that (also, there are so many biases). I own a beautiful
book about contemporary Arabic calligraphy. It shows very innovative samples,
even though generally, there is much more of a fruitful dialogue with the own
tradition than I have seen in contemporary Western calligraphy.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (123)
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6.1. Re: Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" j_mach_w...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:53 am ((PDT))
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 16:16:05 -0700, Padraic Brown wrote:
>--- On Thu, 7/19/12, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>
>> >All of the things that have been said
>> of Arabic
>> >calligraphy thus far can be applied equally to English
>> calligraphy.
>>
>> Where is the established tradition in English calligraphy
>> that does not use one-dimensional base lines (lines where
>> all letters neatly sit on the base line, however curvy that
>> baseline may be)?
>
>Here's a couple:
Most of these are calligramms, the others might be called continuous or
plane-filling. While these are very nice techniques (incidently, I think both
are much more developed in Arabic calligraphy than in Western calligraphy),
they are not what I was talking about. I mean a style of writing where you do
have lines, only that within the lines, the characters are not ordered
linearly. Non-linear lines, if you will. Within the lines there is a
sub-structure of second-order lines. Look again at the following sample:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ta%27liq_script_1.jpg
Here you see lines that run from right to left with an upwards curve. However,
these lines are not linear, Instead, they are composed of sub-lines that run
from top right to bottom left. At times, there are up to four words on top of
each other, but within a structure that clearly still is a line.
Look again at the following sample:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Muhammad_Salat.svg
At a first glance, this might appear to be a regular right-to-left line
rendering of the name Muhammad. However, a closer look reveals that not all
characters sit on the baseline. Instead, the first mīm is placed on top of the
ḥÄʾ. Mind you that this non-linear arrangement of characters is not a
superscript, but a non-linear arrangement of characters.
Now you are going to claim, I assume, that a Western calligrapher could easily
use this technique as well (theoretically). Of course they could, and anyone
would be stupid to deny it. The difference between a Western calligrapher using
this technique and an Arabic calligrapher using this technique is that the
Arabic calligrapher is following a tradition and the Western calligrapher is
not.
Why is it important whether you follow a tradition or not? Let's see what you
said:
>Traditions matter -- but traditions are also to be broken down, and the
>bits recycled into something new and different. This is why we invent
>languages and writing systems. If tradition were the sacred cow you seem
>to want it to be, we'd all be speaking Indo-European and the thought
>police would arrest anyone who tried to come up with something new!
You're perfectly right, if tradition were inmutable, there would be no change.
However, tradition is a two-faced coin. Denying the importance of tradition
would be just as short-sighted as making an inmutable sacred cow of tradition.
Tradition is a requirement for any calligraphy. Without tradition, there would
be no writing at all. Writing does not mean, produce signs as you please. It
means, write as others have done before you (or innovate based on what others
have done before you). That is, writing requires tradition. It goes on: Without
tradition, there would be no speech at all, not Indo-European or anything.
Speaking does not mean, produce utterances as you please. It means, speak as
others have done before you (or innovate based on what others have done before
you). That is, speech requires tradition.
In the case of calligraphy, it is the same. Of course, traditions can be broken
down and the bits recycled. But the breaking down and the recycling will only
work if there is a tradition to be broken and recycled. You can't break and
recycle something that does not exist. If you take zero and divide or multiply
it, it is still zero.
And there is yet another aspect to it. Have you read J. L. Borges' "Pierre
Menard, Author of the Quixote"? Maybe you would fail to understand it. The jest
is that a piece of art is more rich and meaningful and important if it is
produced from within a tradition. If an identical piece of art is produced
without a tradition, it is nothing but an ad-hoc invention. An example: Imagine
I were sketching a phonoesthetical program by uttering the following (hardly a
piece of art, but just an example): "The word I am searching for the rose
should have the quality that it makes the rose smell sweeter." If there were no
Shakespearian tradition, this would be nothing but an ad-hoc invention.
However, since we have a Shakespearian tradition, this is a play with tradition
which adds whole new levels of meaning to the utterance.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (123)
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6.2. Re: Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:19 am ((PDT))
Padraic Brown, On 19/07/2012 02:31:
> --- On Wed, 7/18/12, Sam Stutter<samjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I find it difficult to imagine Greek or Cyrillic
>> calligraphy, but then again I've never seen it handwritten,
>> only ever typeset.
>
> Cyrillic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyaz_%28Cyrillic_calligraphy%29
How cool it would be if the coloured version of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_Vyaz_Axion_Estin.jpg> were a fully
meaningful (con)script rather than almost entirely decorative -- if the
apparently decorative exuberant profusion of curlicues were in fact necessary
wholly significant elements.
--And.
Messages in this topic (123)
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6.3. Re: Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:46 am ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 7/20/12, And Rosta <and.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: And Rosta <and.ro...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Date: Friday, July 20, 2012, 8:19 AM
> Padraic Brown, On 19/07/2012 02:31:
> > --- On Wed, 7/18/12, Sam Stutter<samjj...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> I find it difficult to imagine Greek or Cyrillic
> >> calligraphy, but then again I've never seen it
> handwritten,
> >> only ever typeset.
> >
> > Cyrillic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyaz_%28Cyrillic_calligraphy%29
>
> How cool it would be if the coloured version of
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_Vyaz_Axion_Estin.jpg>
> were a fully meaningful (con)script rather than almost
> entirely decorative -- if the apparently decorative
> exuberant profusion of curlicues were in fact necessary
> wholly significant elements.
I liked this one as well. Well I guess that can be your homework for this
weekend! :)
Padraic
> --And.
Messages in this topic (123)
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7a. Brief Sound Change Question
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:25 am ((PDT))
As "Weston-super-Mare" is "Weston" (west town) "sur la mar" and a thousand
other place names are English corruptions of their original French / Norse /
Welsh / Gaelic, I wondered whether any of you guys could help with coining a
new British place name given a non-English original name?
Now, I've never really studied sound change, but I assume there's some sort of
predictable pattern. The story is that a group of Caccigga speakers set up a
river trading post roughly 400 years ago. It's subsequently re-occupied by
native English speakers.
The town's name is "X bar la natti" (X beside the river). The X will be an
English word which I haven't quite worked out yet. Perhaps an English surname
or something like "Meadow".
If English speakers were to corrupt /baɹ la 'na.tɪ/, what would they most
likely corrupt it to: specifically which dictionary-English words would they
become (like "super mare")? Bonus points if the name sounds like it could very
easily come from Middle England. Assume an R.P. or Cheshire dialect and a real
British history.
Well, I hope sound changes are predictable.
Sam Stutter
samjj...@gmail.com
"No e na'l cu barri"
Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Brief Sound Change Question
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:27 am ((PDT))
Correction; the trading post was set up roughly 600 hundred years ago and was
abandoned before 400 years ago.
On 20 Jul 2012, at 12:25, Sam Stutter wrote:
> As "Weston-super-Mare" is "Weston" (west town) "sur la mar" and a thousand
> other place names are English corruptions of their original French / Norse /
> Welsh / Gaelic, I wondered whether any of you guys could help with coining a
> new British place name given a non-English original name?
>
> Now, I've never really studied sound change, but I assume there's some sort
> of predictable pattern. The story is that a group of Caccigga speakers set up
> a river trading post roughly 400 years ago. It's subsequently re-occupied by
> native English speakers.
>
> The town's name is "X bar la natti" (X beside the river). The X will be an
> English word which I haven't quite worked out yet. Perhaps an English surname
> or something like "Meadow".
>
> If English speakers were to corrupt /baɹ la 'na.tɪ/, what would they most
> likely corrupt it to: specifically which dictionary-English words would they
> become (like "super mare")? Bonus points if the name sounds like it could
> very easily come from Middle England. Assume an R.P. or Cheshire dialect and
> a real British history.
>
> Well, I hope sound changes are predictable.
>
> Sam Stutter
> samjj...@gmail.com
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Brief Sound Change Question
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:35 am ((PDT))
Correction (should have done my research) "super mare" is *Latin* and added
afterwards. I should have said something like "Antrobus" or Peover.
Sam Stutter
samjj...@gmail.com
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 20 Jul 2012, at 12:27, Sam Stutter wrote:
> Correction; the trading post was set up roughly 600 hundred years ago and was
> abandoned before 400 years ago.
>
> On 20 Jul 2012, at 12:25, Sam Stutter wrote:
>
>> As "Weston-super-Mare" is "Weston" (west town) "sur la mar" and a thousand
>> other place names are English corruptions of their original French / Norse /
>> Welsh / Gaelic, I wondered whether any of you guys could help with coining a
>> new British place name given a non-English original name?
>>
>> Now, I've never really studied sound change, but I assume there's some sort
>> of predictable pattern. The story is that a group of Caccigga speakers set
>> up a river trading post roughly 400 years ago. It's subsequently re-occupied
>> by native English speakers.
>>
>> The town's name is "X bar la natti" (X beside the river). The X will be an
>> English word which I haven't quite worked out yet. Perhaps an English
>> surname or something like "Meadow".
>>
>> If English speakers were to corrupt /baɹ la 'na.tɪ/, what would they most
>> likely corrupt it to: specifically which dictionary-English words would they
>> become (like "super mare")? Bonus points if the name sounds like it could
>> very easily come from Middle England. Assume an R.P. or Cheshire dialect and
>> a real British history.
>>
>> Well, I hope sound changes are predictable.
>>
>> Sam Stutter
>> samjj...@gmail.com
>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
7d. Re: Brief Sound Change Question
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:00 am ((PDT))
I don't know the origins of _Antrobus_ or _Peover_, but they don't look plainly
folk-etymologized like _crayfish_ or _Leatherhead_, which is what I'd thought
you were originally intending to ask about.
My guess is that /baɹ la 'na.tɪ/ in Cheshire in 1400 would still be
_Barlanatty_ in PDE, or maybe with a slight folk-etymologization to
_Barleynatty_.
--And.
Sam Stutter, On 20/07/2012 12:35:
> Correction (should have done my research) "super mare" is *Latin* and added
> afterwards. I should have said something like "Antrobus" or Peover.
>
> Sam Stutter
> samjj...@gmail.com
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
>
>
>
> On 20 Jul 2012, at 12:27, Sam Stutter wrote:
>
>> Correction; the trading post was set up roughly 600 hundred years ago and
>> was abandoned before 400 years ago.
>>
>> On 20 Jul 2012, at 12:25, Sam Stutter wrote:
>>
>>> As "Weston-super-Mare" is "Weston" (west town) "sur la mar" and a thousand
>>> other place names are English corruptions of their original French / Norse
>>> / Welsh / Gaelic, I wondered whether any of you guys could help with
>>> coining a new British place name given a non-English original name?
>>>
>>> Now, I've never really studied sound change, but I assume there's some sort
>>> of predictable pattern. The story is that a group of Caccigga speakers set
>>> up a river trading post roughly 400 years ago. It's subsequently
>>> re-occupied by native English speakers.
>>>
>>> The town's name is "X bar la natti" (X beside the river). The X will be an
>>> English word which I haven't quite worked out yet. Perhaps an English
>>> surname or something like "Meadow".
>>>
>>> If English speakers were to corrupt /baɹ la 'na.tɪ/, what would they most
>>> likely corrupt it to: specifically which dictionary-English words would
>>> they become (like "super mare")? Bonus points if the name sounds like it
>>> could very easily come from Middle England. Assume an R.P. or Cheshire
>>> dialect and a real British history.
>>>
>>> Well, I hope sound changes are predictable.
>>>
>>> Sam Stutter
>>> samjj...@gmail.com
>>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (4)
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