There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
From: David Peterson
1b. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
From: Sam Stutter
1c. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
From: David Peterson
1d. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
From: Eric Christopherson
2a. Re: has anyone designed a phonaesthology?
From: And Rosta
2b. Re: has anyone designed a phonaesthology?
From: Alex Fink
3a. Re: Conlangs from the âMission: Impossibleâ TV Show
From: Alex Fink
3b. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
From: David Peterson
3c. Re: Conlangs from the âMission: Impossibleâ TV Show
From: Roger Mills
4a. Re: Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
From: John Erickson
4b. Re: Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
From: R A Brown
4c. Re: Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
4d. Re: Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
From: John Erickson
5a. Re: Dscript for conlangers
From: And Rosta
5b. Re: Dscript for conlangers
From: R A Brown
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:21 am ((PDT))
This is brilliant, John. It inspires me to go back and re-watch the early
episodes of Danger Man to see what I can find. (By the episodes I'm watching
now, they started using real country names and real languages.) It occurs to me
there's a paper in this somewhere...
David Peterson
LCS President
presid...@conlang.org
www.conlang.org
On Jul 22, 2012, at 9:00 AM, John Q wrote:
> Lately, Iâve been re-watching episodes of the old 1960s TV show
> Mission:Impossible. Iâve always enjoyed the various pseudo-Germanic
> conlangs used during episodes taking place in various European countries with
> names like âThe East European Peopleâs Republic,â âThe Federated
> Peopleâs Republic,â âSvardia,â âThe EPRC,â etc.
>
> Anyway, I decided to write down the examples of these conlangs that appear on
> signs, doorways, buildings, the sides of trucks and railway cars, etc. I
> enjoy comparing the variations of one language to another. Itâs fun to see
> what a few umlauts and other diacritics, alternate spellings of English, and
> some pseudo-Germanic-cum-Slavic affixes can do. Hereâs what Iâve got so
> far:
>
> On an airliner, the emergency exit, seat belt, and no-smoking signs are
> marked as follows:
>
> EXTANS IMERGESKI
> BELTEN ATTACHIN
> FUMEN NET
>
> At an airport, the customs sign and a flight arrival sign:
>
> CÃSTOM
> ARRÃVÃL FLYT 23
>
> The State Theater: STAT TEATR
>
> And the ubiquitous border crossings or security gates at various military
> bases and secret research facilities:
>
> ALTIK! (in some episodes, the variation HÃLTE appears)
> ZONA RESTRIK
> ENTRAT VERBATEN
>
> Spelling variations on the above in some episodes include ÃLTIK, ZÃNA,
> RESTRIC, ENTRE FERBATEN, AND NO INTRETEN.
>
> And speaking of research facilities, we have a few variations on the words
> âresearchâ and âinstituteâ:
>
> NAZIONEL SCIENCE INSTÃT
> NÃKLEAR RESERSCH
> INSTITÃT NÃROLOGKAL RESERCH
>
> (and no, the missing letters one expects in INSTÃT and NÃROLOGKAL arenât
> typos)
>
> The ever-present State Security Headquarters goes by a couple of variations:
>
> STAT SECÃRIT HDQ
> STÃT SEKÃRIT
>
> Other building entrance signs:
>
> NAŹIONAL HÃPITAL
> PRIZONN ENTRÃT
> MILTÃRE DISTRIK 6
> KLÃS VÃD ALTRÃN (on a bulding closed for alterations)
>
> Inside buildings, we have all sorts of signs on doors indicating what lies
> beyond:
>
> FILEN
> STAIHRWEG
> ELEVATEN
> ADMINISTRAT
> BARRAK
> INTEL DIVIZIONE
> GRUND LEVÃL
> MILITÃRE REKÃRD
> AÃTHÃRIZ PERSÃNN
> CŽENTRÃL MÃKRÃSFYLM
> DERIKTORI
>
> Signs on the sides of panel trucks:
>
> STAT MATENZ
> WÃTER SYSTEMZ
> FUMIGAZÃN
>
> And on the side of railcars running between âSvardiaâ and Bern,
> Switzerland:
>
> SVARDIA â BERN RAILTS
>
> Lots of warning and directional signs, too:
>
> DÃNJER
> SINGÃL WEY (for some reason, the âWâs in this episode were formed like
> the Cyrillic âshâ character)
> DETÃR
> SEKTOR UEST
> VARNUNG â NO KLIMDIEN (posted at the base of a ladder)
> VARNUNG âGAZ HYDROCYANIDE
>
> Lots of labels on control panels in laboratories, security boards, and other
> equipment panels:
>
> TRÃNSMIT â RECIEBE
> ALARÃM MASTER KONTROL
> IGNÃT
> EXHUSTE (next to an exhaust vent button)
> SPEKA (next to a loudspeaker]
> EXPERMENTÃT
> VOLÃME
> INTERCÃM
> OFFE â ON
> KLÃSE â OPENZ
> MAIHN POWAR
> MANIPULAT
>
> Plus the usual TELEFON on phone booths everywhere.
>
> And what is probably the most ridiculous example, a folder of classified
> information marked:
>
> KLÃS FYD IMFÃMATâION
>
> And finally, in one episode only, there was a pseudo Romance conlang
> featuring signs for a stairway and elevator, as well as trucks from the gas
> company and the water company:
>
> ESTARA
> ASCENSORA
> COMPANICA DE AQUA
> COMPANICA DE GAZ
>
> Iâve always thought of trying to make an actual conlang using these
> examples as a model. So Article One of the Universal Declaration of Human
> Rights would run:
>
> âAlle hümann beihnge är börnen friehe und ekväle ihn dignität und
> rïghten. Szey är endöhwen vid rëzön und könšienz und schüdde äkten
> tzövard öne anödren ihn en spïhrt ov brüderhøde.â
>
> And, of course, the above is to be pronounced exactly the same way all the
> characters in the Mission: Impossible episodes pronounce these various
> European conlangs: as standard English with a fake half-German, half-Slavic
> accent.
>
>
> --John Q.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:21 am ((PDT))
Is there any reason for these? Is it a deliberate in-joke, laziness, ignorance
or a very clever interrogation of the attitudes of western society upon (etc,
etc)?
I love how they appear to come from *at least* one language: I'm getting
Polish, Swedish, German, Czech and... is that Greek? It's very Tintin:
(Syldavian) Hält! Ihn dzekhoujchz blaveh? On fläsz Klowaswa väh dzapeih. Eih
döszt. Güdd. Zrädjzmo. ZsÄlu endzoekhoszd. Güdd. Zsoe gnonh dzoeteïh ebb
touhn.
(Sondonesian) Kita di rumah biassa tambah sedikit sambal ulek. Itu bukan
djelek, tentu lebih enak tetapi. Disana. Diatas batu karang... Lihatlah tanda
dawa 2 terban ini diatas kerta 2 berapi. Saja. Itu betul. (I'm not sure what
the "2" is for)
(And the *shameless* Arubayan): Gi'dahda vit! (Get out of it). Owzah g'rubai?
(How's the grub, eh?) Oozfa sek 'unds? (Who's for seconds?) Otnôsh (Hot-nosh).
Ava'n ip? (Have a nip?) Goh'blimeh! Wa'samma ta, li li li va? Lem eshohya! (Gor
blimey! What's the matter, lily liver? Let me show ya!) Sum in'ksup wivit!
(Something's up with it!)
Sam Stutter
samjj...@gmail.com
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 22 Jul 2012, at 17:00, John Q wrote:
> Lately, Iâve been re-watching episodes of the old 1960s TV show
> Mission:Impossible. Iâve always enjoyed the various pseudo-Germanic
> conlangs used during episodes taking place in various European countries with
> names like âThe East European Peopleâs Republic,â âThe Federated
> Peopleâs Republic,â âSvardia,â âThe EPRC,â etc.
>
> Anyway, I decided to write down the examples of these conlangs that appear on
> signs, doorways, buildings, the sides of trucks and railway cars, etc. I
> enjoy comparing the variations of one language to another. Itâs fun to see
> what a few umlauts and other diacritics, alternate spellings of English, and
> some pseudo-Germanic-cum-Slavic affixes can do. Hereâs what Iâve got so
> far:
>
> On an airliner, the emergency exit, seat belt, and no-smoking signs are
> marked as follows:
>
> EXTANS IMERGESKI
> BELTEN ATTACHIN
> FUMEN NET
>
> At an airport, the customs sign and a flight arrival sign:
>
> CÃSTOM
> ARRÃVÃL FLYT 23
>
> The State Theater: STAT TEATR
>
> And the ubiquitous border crossings or security gates at various military
> bases and secret research facilities:
>
> ALTIK! (in some episodes, the variation HÃLTE appears)
> ZONA RESTRIK
> ENTRAT VERBATEN
>
> Spelling variations on the above in some episodes include ÃLTIK, ZÃNA,
> RESTRIC, ENTRE FERBATEN, AND NO INTRETEN.
>
> And speaking of research facilities, we have a few variations on the words
> âresearchâ and âinstituteâ:
>
> NAZIONEL SCIENCE INSTÃT
> NÃKLEAR RESERSCH
> INSTITÃT NÃROLOGKAL RESERCH
>
> (and no, the missing letters one expects in INSTÃT and NÃROLOGKAL arenât
> typos)
>
> The ever-present State Security Headquarters goes by a couple of variations:
>
> STAT SECÃRIT HDQ
> STÃT SEKÃRIT
>
> Other building entrance signs:
>
> NAŹIONAL HÃPITAL
> PRIZONN ENTRÃT
> MILTÃRE DISTRIK 6
> KLÃS VÃD ALTRÃN (on a bulding closed for alterations)
>
> Inside buildings, we have all sorts of signs on doors indicating what lies
> beyond:
>
> FILEN
> STAIHRWEG
> ELEVATEN
> ADMINISTRAT
> BARRAK
> INTEL DIVIZIONE
> GRUND LEVÃL
> MILITÃRE REKÃRD
> AÃTHÃRIZ PERSÃNN
> CŽENTRÃL MÃKRÃSFYLM
> DERIKTORI
>
> Signs on the sides of panel trucks:
>
> STAT MATENZ
> WÃTER SYSTEMZ
> FUMIGAZÃN
>
> And on the side of railcars running between âSvardiaâ and Bern,
> Switzerland:
>
> SVARDIA â BERN RAILTS
>
> Lots of warning and directional signs, too:
>
> DÃNJER
> SINGÃL WEY (for some reason, the âWâs in this episode were formed like
> the Cyrillic âshâ character)
> DETÃR
> SEKTOR UEST
> VARNUNG â NO KLIMDIEN (posted at the base of a ladder)
> VARNUNG âGAZ HYDROCYANIDE
>
> Lots of labels on control panels in laboratories, security boards, and other
> equipment panels:
>
> TRÃNSMIT â RECIEBE
> ALARÃM MASTER KONTROL
> IGNÃT
> EXHUSTE (next to an exhaust vent button)
> SPEKA (next to a loudspeaker]
> EXPERMENTÃT
> VOLÃME
> INTERCÃM
> OFFE â ON
> KLÃSE â OPENZ
> MAIHN POWAR
> MANIPULAT
>
> Plus the usual TELEFON on phone booths everywhere.
>
> And what is probably the most ridiculous example, a folder of classified
> information marked:
>
> KLÃS FYD IMFÃMATâION
>
> And finally, in one episode only, there was a pseudo Romance conlang
> featuring signs for a stairway and elevator, as well as trucks from the gas
> company and the water company:
>
> ESTARA
> ASCENSORA
> COMPANICA DE AQUA
> COMPANICA DE GAZ
>
> Iâve always thought of trying to make an actual conlang using these
> examples as a model. So Article One of the Universal Declaration of Human
> Rights would run:
>
> âAlle hümann beihnge är börnen friehe und ekväle ihn dignität und
> rïghten. Szey är endöhwen vid rëzön und könšienz und schüdde äkten
> tzövard öne anödren ihn en spïhrt ov brüderhøde.â
>
> And, of course, the above is to be pronounced exactly the same way all the
> characters in the Mission: Impossible episodes pronounce these various
> European conlangs: as standard English with a fake half-German, half-Slavic
> accent.
>
>
> --John Q.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:25 am ((PDT))
On Jul 22, 2012, at 9:21 AM, Sam Stutter wrote:
> Is there any reason for these? Is it a deliberate in-joke, laziness,
> ignorance or a very clever interrogation of the attitudes of western society
> upon (etc, etc)?
Oh, there's a very specific reasonand, I've found, one of the most common
reasons for using a conlang in a show/production: they feel they have no other
choice, creatively. In this case (as is the case in Danger Man), the viewer is
supposed to get the idea that they're either in the USSR or East Germany. Due
to the delicate nature of international relations at the time, though, there's
no way they could have said they were ACTUALLY in those countries. Thus, it
puts them in a fake country with a fake name and a fake languageall of which,
though, are designed to be quite obviously identified as basically Eastern
European or Germanic.
David Peterson
LCS President
presid...@conlang.org
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:40 am ((PDT))
On Jul 22, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Sam Stutter wrote:
> (Sondonesian) Kita di rumah biassa tambah sedikit sambal ulek. Itu bukan
> djelek, tentu lebih enak tetapi. Disana. Diatas batu karang... Lihatlah tanda
> dawa 2 terban ini diatas kerta 2 berapi. Saja. Itu betul. (I'm not sure what
> the "2" is for)
It looks like Indonesian/Malay, in which the numeral 2 means to reduplicate the
previous word (typically for plurality; maybe Roger could inform us whether
it's used for anything else).
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: has anyone designed a phonaesthology?
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:33 am ((PDT))
Alex Fink, On 21/07/2012 23:23:
> A phonaestheme is a sound-meaning correspondence below the morpheme
> level -- that is, it is a pattern in which a bunch of stems that mean
> similar things . For example, initial /sn-/ is an English
> phonaestheme for things to do with the nose, showing up in "snout",
> "sneeze", "sniff", "snicker", etc.
Formally, I see no difference between phonaesthemes and nonproductive
derivational morphology, with phonaesthemes being bound morphemes that tend to
combine with other phonaesthemes or with cranberry morphs. Additionally they're
characterized by a tendency towards phonosemantic iconicity and by
family-resemblance polysemy.
[BTW do you use the -ae- spelling bcs you're Canadian?]
> So has anyone around here designed a list like this for their conlang?
I had a work-in-progress list for Livagian, back in the days when it had a
lexicon. Since Livagian is intended to be the best possible language, it was
necessary that it be rich in phonaesthemes, since phonaesthemes are one of the
glories of my beloved English.
> (I haven't, I don't know very much about the cross-linguistic
> variation of such systems and so am too timid to.)
A naturalist aesthetic can be quite paralysing. I have pictures of Livagia in
my head, but am too timid to map the country because I don't know enough about
geology. I think I recall reading an Akana discussion about horses, in which it
was realized that in such a different world, quite different species might have
evolved, and I realized then that versimilitude and obsessive naturalism in
wholly imagined worlds is doomed to fail, and I went from wishing I'd had the
time to be part of the Akana project to being glad I wasn't (tho still admiring
of the project).
--And.
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: has anyone designed a phonaesthology?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:32 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 17:32:54 +0100, And Rosta <and.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Alex Fink, On 21/07/2012 23:23:
>> A phonaestheme is a sound-meaning correspondence below the morpheme
>> level -- that is, it is a pattern in which a bunch of stems that mean
>> similar things . For example, initial /sn-/ is an English
>> phonaestheme for things to do with the nose, showing up in "snout",
>> "sneeze", "sniff", "snicker", etc.
>
>Formally, I see no difference between phonaesthemes and nonproductive
>derivational morphology, with phonaesthemes being bound morphemes that tend to
>combine with other phonaesthemes or with cranberry morphs. Additionally
>they're characterized by a tendency towards phonosemantic iconicity and by
>family-resemblance polysemy.
I also see a continuum here, though I'd hesitate to call them all "morphemes"
that freely with the theoretical baggage that carries. And, another cline
which I'd pick out separating them is that even nonproductive derivational
morphology tends to stick around in pairs of words, identical except that one
possesses and one lacks it, whereas phonaesthemes aren't so subtractable. (A
fresh new derivational operation could spring from one or a few such pairs with
little provocation. It's harder to see how presence of a given phonaestheme of
the canonical sort could turn compositional, though I guess that's probably
what's behind the pattern in various North American languages of forming a
diminutive by palatalising all alveolars, e.g.)
>[BTW do you use the -ae- spelling bcs you're Canadian?]
That could well be the ultimate reason in this case. I've managed to acquire
"aesth" and not "esth" for this element (mostly! I see I wrote "esth" once in
my mail of 10:26:44 -0400), but then I have "encyclopedia", hm, and "cesium",
and I'm sure further investigation would show that like a good Canadian there's
little consistency to it overall for me.
>> (I haven't, I don't know very much about the cross-linguistic
>> variation of such systems and so am too timid to.)
>
>A naturalist aesthetic can be quite paralysing. I have pictures of Livagia in
>my head, but am too timid to map the country because I don't know enough about
>geology. I think I recall reading an Akana discussion about horses, in which
>it was realized that in such a different world, quite different species might
>have evolved, and I realized then that versimilitude and obsessive naturalism
>in wholly imagined worlds is doomed to fail, and I went from wishing I'd had
>the time to be part of the Akana project to being glad I wasn't (tho still
>admiring of the project).
Indeed. http://akana.conlang.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49
The setting of my own non-collaborative naturalistic languages is an alternate
Earth with point(s) of divergence between the emergence of modern humans and
their worldwide dispersal. But unlike most who invoke points of divergence, I
have no interest in tracing changes forward from them; rather, I invoke the
butterfly effect and get to begin from a clean slate in languages and cultures
while not having to touch (for instance) biology.
Alex
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Conlangs from the âMission: Impossibleâ TV Show
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:35 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 09:25:50 -0700, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jul 22, 2012, at 9:21 AM, Sam Stutter wrote:
>
>> Is there any reason for these? Is it a deliberate in-joke, laziness,
>> ignorance or a very clever interrogation of the attitudes of western society
>> upon (etc, etc)?
>
>Oh, there's a very specific reason -- and, I've found, one of the most common
>reasons for using a conlang in a show/production: they feel they have no other
>choice, creatively. In this case (as is the case in Danger Man), the viewer is
>supposed to get the idea that they're either in the USSR or East Germany. Due
>to the delicate nature of international relations at the time, though, there's
>no way they could have said they were ACTUALLY in those countries. Thus, it
>puts them in a fake country with a fake name and a fake language -- all of
>which, though, are designed to be quite obviously identified as basically
>Eastern European or Germanic.
To first order, yes, I'd agree: this describes Syldavian pretty well, for
instance. For those unaware, Mark Rosenfelder has done a compelling analysis /
reconstruction of Syldavian: http://zompist.com/syldavian.html .
But I think that's only half the story for this Mission Impossible material.
All of John's examples with maybe a few scant exceptions look as though they're
meant to be readable without difficulty to an English monoglot, to a degree
which Syldavian doesn't. And this restriction is not entailed by the
constraint of being an Eastern European pastiche. So what explains _that_? A
desire for transparency to the audience, or laziness / uncreativity / not
wanting to do the research, or something else...?
Alex
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Conlangs from the Mission: Impossible TV Show
Posted by: "David Peterson" deda...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:11 am ((PDT))
On Jul 22, 2012, at 9:35 AM, Alex Fink wrote:
> But I think that's only half the story for this Mission Impossible material.
> All of John's examples with maybe a few scant exceptions look as though
> they're meant to be readable without difficulty to an English monoglot, to a
> degree which Syldavian doesn't. And this restriction is not entailed by the
> constraint of being an Eastern European pastiche. So what explains _that_?
> A desire for transparency to the audience, or laziness / uncreativity / not
> wanting to do the research, or something else...?
Recall I was talking about both Mission Impossible *and* Danger Manthe latter
of which had a lot more Slavic-inspired conlanging, and a lot *less* signage.
The audience clearly was not expected to follow that dialogue, but to place it
as "Russian".
David Peterson
LCS President
presid...@conlang.org
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Conlangs from the âMission: Impossibleâ TV Show
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:04 am ((PDT))
Nothing to do with "Mission Impossible",which I only watched sporadicallly
(didn't have a TV for a lot of that era) but....
In school some 60+ years ago, we were shown a movie that supposedly took place
in some E.Eur commie country (spies I think). The bad guy mostly spoke English,
but on many occasions would say "Natalni" in a very sinister tone, which
evidently meant "naturally/of course". Somehow it caught on and one heard
schoolmates saying Natalni for at least the rest of the semester. :-))))
Anothe--: while teaching Indonesian in the 70s, one of my students mentioned
that he'd recently seen (on TV) an old British movie (spies again IIRC), where
at one point someone (not a foreigner) said, during a telephone conversation,Â
"Minggu depan, istri saya" (=. "Next week, my wife" in Malay ~Indonesian).
Needless to say that had nothing to do with the topic of the conversation, just
a bit of exoticism thrown in I guess. I suppose the Brits probably figured that
most of their audiences in Europe/US would'nt recognize the language.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
Posted by: "John Erickson" john.erickson.so...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:36 am ((PDT))
>Indeed, Comrie's observations also raise a question about
John's Fairylang. he stated that "marking on a direct
object is relative to the subject and indicates aspect
(perfect, imperfect, predictive/intentional)". Does that
mean that aspect cannot be marked for intransitive verbs?
I have a way of dealing with that (let me know if you think it's
plausible/workable).
When you have a clause with no direct object, the aspect is assumed to be
imperfect or else implied by context. If you need to specify otherwise, you use
the verb "ni" (to be) and the gerund of the original verb becomes the direct
object.
Isan dasu
Eat mouse
The mouse eats
Ni dasu wisannyia
Is mouse eating(past)
The mouse has been eating
Similarly, when you have a sentence with no subject, the tense is assumed to be
present or else implied by context, but if you need to specify, you can to the
same thing, using the gerund as the subject.
Isan a napysh
Eat dir-obj cheese
The cheese is being eaten
Ni wisannyia napysh
Is eating(past) cheese
The cheese was being eaten
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:16 am ((PDT))
On 22/07/2012 18:36, John Erickson wrote:
>> Indeed, Comrie's observations also raise a question
>> about
> John's Fairylang. he stated that "marking on a direct
> object is relative to the subject and indicates aspect
> (perfect, imperfect, predictive/intentional)". Does
> that mean that aspect cannot be marked for intransitive
> verbs?
>
> I have a way of dealing with that (let me know if you
> think it's plausible/workable).
>
> When you have a clause with no direct object, the aspect
> is assumed to be imperfect or else implied by context.
> If you need to specify otherwise, you use the verb "ni"
> (to be) and the gerund of the original verb becomes the
> direct object.
"to be" is a copula; it cannot govern a direct object.
> Isan dasu Eat mouse The mouse eats
>
> Ni dasu wisannyia
Is mouse eating(past)
> The mouse has been eating
That's a present perfect progressive.
What about the perfective? How does one say "The mouse
ate"? Tho I guess such a sentence would normally have an object.
How about: "The king burped"?
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]
Messages in this topic (15)
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4c. Re: Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:33 am ((PDT))
On 22 July 2012 20:16, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> I have a way of dealing with that (let me know if you
>> think it's plausible/workable).
>>
>> When you have a clause with no direct object, the aspect
>> is assumed to be imperfect or else implied by context.
>> If you need to specify otherwise, you use the verb "ni"
>> (to be) and the gerund of the original verb becomes the
>> direct object.
>>
>
>
> "to be" is a copula; it cannot govern a direct object.
>
>
Why not? It does so in my Moten for instance (the verb _atom_: "to be"
takes a direct object in the accusative case). It does so in Arabic as
well, when it is expressed (i.e. in sentences in other tenses than the
present).
There's no universal rule that says that the predicate of a copula cannot
be considered to be a direct object, if in the language in question it
neatly fits with those.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (15)
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4d. Re: Tense Marking Nouns in FairyLang
Posted by: "John Erickson" john.erickson.so...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:48 am ((PDT))
>"to be" is a copula; it cannot govern a direct object.
What about a sentence like "I am a man." Isn't "a man" a direct object?
>> Isan dasu Eat mouse The mouse eats
>>
>> Ni dasu wisannyia
>>Is mouse eating(past)
>> The mouse has been eating
>That's a present perfect progressive.
>What about the perfective? How does one say "The mouse
>ate"? Tho I guess such a sentence would normally have an object.
>How about: "The king burped"?
My mistake, I mis-typed. That should have been translated "The mouse has eaten."
Messages in this topic (15)
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5a. Re: Dscript for conlangers
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:54 am ((PDT))
Matthew DeBlock, On 13/07/2012 05:05:
> Recently put together a "pamphlet"style "quick guide" to using dscript for any
> alphabet.
> http://dscript.ca/dscript_conlang.gif (tried attaching it, says I cant
> attac Gifs)
>
> This outlines how to put together an alphabet of base Dscript letters to
> design your
> Dscript alphabet.
>
> comment/sugestions/cititquies very welcome :)
I like the basic concept. I wonder if it could be made more compact and wholly
avoid lifting the pen.
In designing Livagian script, the basic requirements were:
(i) the pen need never be lifted from the paper,
(ii) boundaries between characters must be unambiguous,
(iii) the script must use the white space of the page as economically as
possible, fitting as many characters on the page as possible for a given
thickness of penstroke,
(iv) the number of strokes per character are as few as possible.
The (unfinished) result is a kind of cursive script without ascenders or
descenders. I've no idea how readable it is. To the unpracticed eye, it's an
effort to identify the character boundaries and, given that they can be written
in any direction, to recognize characters.
--And.
Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: Dscript for conlangers
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:18 am ((PDT))
On 22/07/2012 18:54, And Rosta wrote:
[snip]
>
> In designing Livagian script, the basic requirements
> were: (i) the pen need never be lifted from the paper,
[etc. snipped]
> The (unfinished) result is a kind of cursive script
> without ascenders or descenders. I've no idea how
> readable it is. To the unpracticed eye, it's an effort to
> identify the character boundaries and, given that they
> can be written in any direction, to recognize
> characters.
Any chance of seeing an example?
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]
Messages in this topic (7)
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