There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Numbers from your conlang?
From: G. van der Vegt
1b. Re: Numbers from your conlang?
From: Patrick Dunn
2a. Re: Transcription system for Books
From: J. M. DeSantis
2b. Re: Transcription system for Books
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2c. Re: Transcription system for Books
From: Shreyas Sampat
2d. Re: Transcription system for Books
From: David McCann
2e. Re: Transcription system for Books
From: Michael Everson
3a. Re: Adjective Suffixes/Prefixes
From: David McCann
4a. Re: orienting Hebrew-Aramaic Script
From: BPJ
Messages
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1a. Re: Numbers from your conlang?
Posted by: "G. van der Vegt" gijsstri...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:12 am ((PDT))
I think I know what's going on. Janco Gorenc meant to send this e-mail
off-list to a certain 'Randy', but accidentally send it to the list. (As
can be seen in his e-mail, he addresses it with 'Hey Randy')
Jennifer Collins-Lai then pressed reply to the wrong e-mail in the
conversation.
At least, that seems to be what is going on here.
On 30 July 2012 16:04, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> On 30/07/2012 12:36, Jennifer Collins-Jai wrote:
>
>> Okay, one, I don't know why you think my name is randy.
>>
>
> Er, what??
>
> I do NOT think your name is Randy!! Ever since you first
> posted to the list on 26th May, I've always assumed your
> name was, er, 'Jennifer Collins-Jai'
>
>
> TWO, you've sent me this message on facebook, a forum and
>> now EMAIL as well!
>>
>
> Nope - I've never used Facebook! Nor have I ever sent you an email.
>
>
> I think there was another one too. I've already replied.
>>
>>> .> Please stop sending the EXACT same message!
>>>
>>
> This is so surreal! Something weird is surely gone on. I
> was merely replying to the request Janko sends every once in
> a while to the _Conlang list_.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 4:51 AM, R A Brown wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> My name is Janko. I'm collecting numbers from
>>>> various systems in different languages. Please you
>>>> tell me if you'll have numbers from your conlang(s)
>>>> in future.
>>>>
>>>
>>> TAKE numbers:
>>> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com/TAKE/Numerals.html<http://www.carolandray.plus.com/TAKE/Numerals.html>
>>>
>>> Outidic numbers:
>>> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com/Outis/NumberAndTime.html<http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/NumberAndTime.html>
>>>
>>> The latter page, as a bonus, also contains the numbers
>>> in Philippe Lab's "Lingua Universalis".
>>>
>>
> Umm - I've read my email again. I don't see anywhere that I've suggested
> anyone is called Randy!!
>
> Curiouser & curiouser, as Alice said.
>
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Numbers from your conlang?
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:19 am ((PDT))
Janco is also remarkably persistant and often asks the same person for
numbers repeatedly through several different fora.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 9:11 AM, G. van der Vegt <gijsstri...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I think I know what's going on. Janco Gorenc meant to send this e-mail
> off-list to a certain 'Randy', but accidentally send it to the list. (As
> can be seen in his e-mail, he addresses it with 'Hey Randy')
>
> Jennifer Collins-Lai then pressed reply to the wrong e-mail in the
> conversation.
>
> At least, that seems to be what is going on here.
>
> On 30 July 2012 16:04, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
>
> > On 30/07/2012 12:36, Jennifer Collins-Jai wrote:
> >
> >> Okay, one, I don't know why you think my name is randy.
> >>
> >
> > Er, what??
> >
> > I do NOT think your name is Randy!! Ever since you first
> > posted to the list on 26th May, I've always assumed your
> > name was, er, 'Jennifer Collins-Jai'
> >
> >
> > TWO, you've sent me this message on facebook, a forum and
> >> now EMAIL as well!
> >>
> >
> > Nope - I've never used Facebook! Nor have I ever sent you an email.
> >
> >
> > I think there was another one too. I've already replied.
> >>
> >>> .> Please stop sending the EXACT same message!
> >>>
> >>
> > This is so surreal! Something weird is surely gone on. I
> > was merely replying to the request Janko sends every once in
> > a while to the _Conlang list_.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 4:51 AM, R A Brown wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> My name is Janko. I'm collecting numbers from
> >>>> various systems in different languages. Please you
> >>>> tell me if you'll have numbers from your conlang(s)
> >>>> in future.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> TAKE numbers:
> >>> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com/TAKE/Numerals.html<
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/TAKE/Numerals.html>
> >>>
> >>> Outidic numbers:
> >>> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com/Outis/NumberAndTime.html<
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/NumberAndTime.html>
> >>>
> >>> The latter page, as a bonus, also contains the numbers
> >>> in Philippe Lab's "Lingua Universalis".
> >>>
> >>
> > Umm - I've read my email again. I don't see anywhere that I've suggested
> > anyone is called Randy!!
> >
> > Curiouser & curiouser, as Alice said.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ray
> > ==============================**====
> > http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> > ==============================**====
> > Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> > There's none too old to learn.
> > [WELSH PROVERB]
> >
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Transcription system for Books
Posted by: "J. M. DeSantis" j...@jmdesantis.com
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:27 am ((PDT))
Daniel,
Yes, [ˈkɛlɛbɔrn] is the correct pronunciation. As I said in one of my
responses, because of the English rules of "ce" most English speaking
peoples (as their first and only language) would want to pronounce it
"Seleborn" (but I never claim anything is 100%).
Basically the whole reason for bringing any of this up was to help
Dustfinger, to some degree, let go of his concerns about which way is
"best" to represent his languages, because no matter what route you go,
there will still be people who will not research your languages' rules
and also go about mispronouncing your names until someone corrects them
(do consider also people with languages other than English as their
first language--after all, many of us would hope to have our works
published in multiple languages, which adds additional problems--for
lack of a better term--in proper pronunciation, without knowledge of the
rules).
I think the best rule of thumb is to be aware of your options (which I
gave him only what I've found--though there are many more possibilities)
and choose what best works for you and your sensibilities. One thing is
true, however, the less (to take Tolkien's term, since he entered this
conversation early on) "Anglicised" you represent the sounds and words
in your language, the more "foreign" or "difficult" they will appear to
the layman (though, of course, in doing this, you may inspire a whole
new generation of conlangers who *will* want to investigate more).
I'm not promoting or dismissing any approach. I'm not the sort to do
that, nor do I think myself such an authority I have the ability to do
that. I am merely giving information that I personally consider. If
Dustfinger finds my experiences and information irrelevant in terms of
his languages, that's fine and even good (at least he knows what he's
not looking to do). But my one constant does still stand: most of your
readers may not be conlangers, linguists or even know a second language.
They may not bother to learn your rules. And as such, I think there are
certain choices an author should make depending on how alien or
familiar, how approachable or difficult they want their languages to be.
(In my own case, I'm still wondering how I'm going to make my children's
books characters--all related to my larger fantasy world--have names
from a language greatly inspired by Irish (and having its phonology). I
don't know if a publisher will be willing to touch the thing! Let alone
a school teacher or parent--though indeed, children are the most adept
to learning new languages and rolling with things, so to speak. I have
considered in the past Michael Everson's recent suggestion of putting
some pronunciation information in the front, but would that become even
less attractive for a children's book? Or perhaps be very attractive for
the children who would feel they're "learning a new language?" But I
digress.)
In the end, as I said, it does come down to personal preference. I just
think it's worth considering the uninitiated who may not give that part
of your work the attention it deserves (for good or ill). Whether you
cater to that or not, is up to you. Merely I promote the idea of making
an informed decision in this area. Best.
Sincerely,
J. M. DeSantis
Writer - Illustrator
Official Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
On 7/30/2012 4:56 AM, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
>> On Jul 29, 2012, at 10:35 PM, J. M. DeSantis wrote:
>>
>>> Conlang List,
>>>
>>> I'll try to add my (modestly informed) two cents on this topic. First, I
>>> agree with everything said below (Stevo's example of Tolkien's method and
>>> MorphemeAddict's declaration that "it's not often enough"), and perhaps,
>>> considering these statements, I can add some insight from my own
>>> experiences.
>>>
>>> For one, yes, Tolkien's method was adequate for what he was attempting to
>>> create, but even so, despite all his best intentions of "regularising" a
>>> transcription system for Quenya and Sindarin, most people still
>>> mispronounced certain Elvish names incorrectly, without knowing the
>>> language better
>> Just on equestion: Dies mispronouncing something incorrectly make it correct
>> again? ;-)
> OK, that was miswritten incorrectly, read: "Just one question…"
> soz
>
>>> (specifically Celeborn for English speaking peoples).
>> I would say: [ˈkɛlɛbɔrn] is that mispronounced incorrectly?
>> Dan
>>
>>> But, then again, most English speaking peoples, looking at the Irish female
>>> name Siobhan, would not know how to pronounce it without being introduced
>>> to the name and its spelling before trying to sound it out cold.
>>>
>>> On the flip side, a few months ago I wrote to the list (in part) lamenting
>>> my difficulties with mimicking the transcription system for Malayalam (one
>>> of India's Dravidian languages)….
>
>
Messages in this topic (25)
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2b. Re: Transcription system for Books
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:44 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Sunday 29 July 2012 21:36:12 MorphemeAddict wrote:
> Tolkien solved this problem using only a few simple diacritical marks on
> ordinary letters. I think that's a reasonable solution.
It is at least a reasonable solution for the kind of conlangs
Tolkien used, which are essentially just like human natlangs.
All these languages could easily be represented in IPA as they
do not contain any "non-human" sounds.
Yet, many names are often mispronounced by readers. For example,
the _th_ in _Tharkûn_ (the Dwarvish name of Gandalf) does not
represent /θ/ (as it does in Sindarin) but /tʰ/. I once knew
a guy who pronounced _Dúnedain_ as [dʌn i'dein]! The "Celeborn"
problem has already been mentioned in this thread.
With non-humanoid alien languages, IPA is not an option, and
romanizations of the kind used by Tolkien and many other
conlangers simply do not make sense. Thus more creative
solutions are necessary.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (25)
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2c. Re: Transcription system for Books
Posted by: "Shreyas Sampat" ssam...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:46 am ((PDT))
Here is an experiment that you can do.
Develop a transcription system for a local songbird - robins or larks
or what have you. Show it to another person. Play them some recorded
sounds and ask them to identify which transcription matches the
recording!
If you cannot accomplish this, and I daresay you cannot, then it is
beyond hubris to expect a reader of a work of fiction to try and learn
a transcription system for alien noises that you invented in your
head. It is not only unkind and inconsiderate to the reader, it's not
functional in any imaginable way.
Incidentally, experts who study songbirds use spectrograms.
Shreyas Sampat
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de> wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Sunday 29 July 2012 21:36:12 MorphemeAddict wrote:
>
>> Tolkien solved this problem using only a few simple diacritical marks on
>> ordinary letters. I think that's a reasonable solution.
>
> It is at least a reasonable solution for the kind of conlangs
> Tolkien used, which are essentially just like human natlangs.
> All these languages could easily be represented in IPA as they
> do not contain any "non-human" sounds.
>
> Yet, many names are often mispronounced by readers. For example,
> the _th_ in _Tharkûn_ (the Dwarvish name of Gandalf) does not
> represent /θ/ (as it does in Sindarin) but /tʰ/. I once knew
> a guy who pronounced _Dúnedain_ as [dʌn i'dein]! The "Celeborn"
> problem has already been mentioned in this thread.
>
> With non-humanoid alien languages, IPA is not an option, and
> romanizations of the kind used by Tolkien and many other
> conlangers simply do not make sense. Thus more creative
> solutions are necessary.
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (25)
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2d. Re: Transcription system for Books
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:47 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:35:41 -0400
Dustfinger Batailleur <dustfinge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm currently writing a fantasy/sci-fi book which is on a planet with
> a very large amount of sentient species, and so loads of different
> and often unrelated languages. A problem arose, which is how I would
> encode the phonetic values of the languages and words and such. I
> came up with a few options:
> C) Try to use English to transcribe sounds - even worse than the other
> choices, it can only represent a small fraction of the sounds I'll
> need accurately.
Why do you need to transcribe accurately? The languages matter to you,
but if anyone else is to read it, they probably won't care. If you had
a novel set on Earth with a character called Nguyễn Đình-Hoà, how many
people could pronounce that correctly? And how many would be any the
worse off if you'd written Nguyen Dinh-Hoa? Many fast readers (e.g. me)
don't always register names, just noting the shapes; I can read a book
and quote a speech from it without being able to tell you the surname
of the speaker.
Messages in this topic (25)
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2e. Re: Transcription system for Books
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:48 am ((PDT))
On 30 Jul 2012, at 15:44, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> With non-humanoid alien languages, IPA is not an option
Why not? It depends on the phonemes. And the level of humanoidness, I guess.
Unless a language is expressed by exchanging viruses or subsonic vibrations or
flashing lights, but it depends on the aliens. In Cherryh's Chanur series she's
got the methane breathers -- the T'ca, the Chi, and the Knnn -- who would
doubtless defy transcription (but even then we have their names as [tka],
[tʃi], and [knːː]).
Of course the Hani, the Mehendo'sat, the Kif, and the Stsho all speak with
their mouths and learn each other's languages, and it's obvious that an
alphabetic writing system could be extended one way or another to accommodate
them.
> and romanizations of the kind used by Tolkien and many other conlangers
> simply do not make sense. Thus more creative solutions are necessary.
If you want any of your readers to even *try*, you'll use some form of
orthography using Latin letters and extensions of various kinds.
If Dustfinger has worked out 2 out of 30 conlangs for his novel I suppose his
novel hasn't got very far. It's wonderful background. And language (as in
Cherryh's Foreigner series) can be a stimulating plot element. To me, 30 sounds
excessive; I can't think of any novel with mulilingual characters in which text
would be represented in so many languages.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (25)
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________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Adjective Suffixes/Prefixes
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:25 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 16:43:27 -0400
Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 16:08:29 +0100, David McCann
> <da...@polymathy.plus.com> wrote:
>
> >They may inflect for agreement with the noun they qualify,
> >in gender, number, and case. The rule is that if the adjective
> >follows the noun, then it must inflect if the noun does.
>
> How robust is that? Does it hold even if the inflection is
> prefixal? Do you know what diachronic processes are responsible for
> it?
Pretty robust, I believe, although I won't guarantee what goes on up
the Amazon…
My own theory is that if the adjective precedes, it's easy to see where
the noun phrase ends – with the noun. If the noun comes first, you only
register that the phrase has ended when the speaker stops adding
adjectives. The phrase is looser, as it were, and adjectival agreement
ties it up. Uninflected languages with postponed adjectives like tend to
avoid multiple adjectives, using relative clauses instead. E.g. Malay
rumah batu yang baru
house stone that new
"new stone house"
When the adjective inflects and follows, like Swahili, two adjectives
are acceptable.
like "
Messages in this topic (6)
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________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: orienting Hebrew-Aramaic Script
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:35 am ((PDT))
On 2012-07-27 18:48, David McCann wrote:
> Even with
> the specific case of a broad nib, I suspect the early reed pen was less
> fussy over direction than a quill or metal one.
I tried a home-made reed pen once, albeit on
machine-made drawing paper, and it wouldn't dig in, but
OTOH I had to be careful because it was so soft, which
was very hard for me.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (19)
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