There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: In the Land of Invented Languages
From: And Rosta
1.2. Labial lateral? (was: In the Land of Invented Languages)
From: R A Brown
2a. Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Adnan Majid
2b. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Patrick Michael Niedzielski
2c. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
From: Michael Everson
3a. Persian and Sound Changes and Uzbek
From: Eamon Graham
3b. Re: Persian and Sound Changes and Uzbek
From: Michael Everson
3c. Re: Persian and Sound Changes and Uzbek
From: Eamon Graham
Messages
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1.1. Re: In the Land of Invented Languages
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 12:27 pm ((PDT))
Jörg Rhiemeier, On 03/08/2012 18:40:
> On Friday 03 August 2012 09:26:02 R A Brown wrote:
>> but I think what attracted me most to Liva (which,
>> for those who don't know it, is a loglang) was its
>> phonology.
[...]
>> But revisiting
>> this, I'm not so happy about his 'laterals'. The IPA chart
>> gives symbols for his dental/alveolar, palatal and velar
>> laterals, the spaces for labial (and labiodental) lateral is
>> blanked out, meaning the sound is not humanly possible.
>> Claudio described his 'labial lateral' thus: "[the sound] is
>> obtained by putting the tongue tip between the lips and
>> pronouncing a sort of 'L'."
>
> An elegant, symmetric system that fails at the limits of the
> human articulatory tract. There is no way fixing that - you
> have to choose one of the following three:
>
> 1. Include an abstract "phoneme" that nobody can pronounce.
> 2. Break the symmetry by filling in a phoneme that doesn't
> really fit its place in the grid.
> 3. Leave a gap in the grid (which also breaks the symmetry).
>
> Such problems tend to crop up in conlangs which try to be more
> regular than practical.
Claudio also says that the "more rigorous" realization of this phoneme would be
as a nonlingual lateral in which the lips are the active articulator. He
supposes, incorrectly, that laterality requires airflow around both sides of a
midsagittal occlusion (rather than just at least one side), and hence that this
realization would be difficult, but in fact that's not a requirement of
laterality and the sound is easy to produce, tho acoustically I don't think
it's any different from a bilabial approximant. (Liva's "Laterals" could
perfectly well be renamed "Approximants".)
I see that Ray said much of this a year ago
<http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1108a&L=conlang&P=1414>.
--And.
Messages in this topic (67)
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1.2. Labial lateral? (was: In the Land of Invented Languages)
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 7:51 am ((PDT))
On 04/08/2012 20:27, And Rosta wrote:
[snip]
>
> Claudio also says that the "more rigorous" realization of
> this phoneme would be as a nonlingual lateral in which
> the lips are the active articulator.
That's not in version 2.1 (Sep. 1997) which I was working
from; but I see it was added later and appears in version
4.2 (Jan. 2002). The wording in the second version does
suggest that there may have been some discussion of this
phoneme on the Langdev list.
> He supposes, incorrectly, that laterality requires
> airflow around both sides of a midsagittal occlusion
> (rather than just at least one side),
Are you sure? He writes, when explaining the 'easier' method
of version 2.1: "the easiest way to realize it seems to be
by the tongue's tip between lips, *either in the middle or
at one side*: in this position imagine to pronounce a common
[l]" [my emphasis]; and again when he of the "more rigorous"
pronunciation" he writes that it "would be to put lips near
only in their central part and leaving two spaces on the
sides, though it seems a difficult position, *or* to put
them near on a side and leave a space on the other side" [my
emphasis].
> and hence that this realization would be difficult, but
> in fact that's not a requirement of laterality and the
> sound is easy to produce, tho acoustically I don't think
> it's any different from a bilabial approximant. (Liva's
> "Laterals" could perfectly well be renamed
> "Approximants".)
I agree - I think it would be heard as a bilabial
approximant. But I do not think Claudio's "more rigorous"
pronunciation is a 'lateral approximant'. Lateral
approximants may be dental, alveolar, postalveolar,
retroflex, palatal, velar or uvular; in every instance the
closure is made _within_ the mouth by the tongue with the
airstream passing either on both sides or one side of the
tongue.
Claudio's velar lateral approximant is, thus perfectly
possible, but is not common in the world's languages. It
does, however, occur in some varieties of English in words
like _fill_, _bill_ etc (Oh dear, not YAEPT!!) and has the
IPA symbol [Ê].
I do not know of any occurrence of the uvular lateral
approximant, but clearly the IPA guys think it possible (as
indeed it is) although no symbol has yet been assigned to it.
> I see that Ray said much of this a year ago
> <http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1108a&L=conlang&P=1414>.
>
So I did! But I made a horrible typo towards the end. I
should, of course, I written: "I know Claudio
wanted all phonemes, both consonantal and vocalic, to fit
his neat 4 x 8 grid; but I feel it would have been better to
have had _approximants_."
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (67)
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2a. Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Adnan Majid" dsama...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 12:51 pm ((PDT))
Hey everyone!
It's sad when natural languages die - we all lose a bit of our common human
culture. Just read about this effort to revive a Native American
language, Siletz
Dee-Ni<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/us/siletz-language-with-few-voices-finds-modern-way-to-survive.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120804>
in
the New York Times. The tribe exists, but its language has few speakers. I
wonder if part of the trouble is teaching a difficult and "alien" grammar
to older tribe members who only know English. Children may be able to learn
the language in school, but if it's not widely spoken by adults in the
community, achieving a stable population of native speakers may be very
difficult.
This got me wondering whether conlanging could contribute to this language
revival. A tribe could decide to produce a new, constructed language with
the traditional vocabulary but a much simplified grammer similar to that of
the tribe's commonly spoken language (English) - That may facilitate
language learning in an adult population.
Has anyone heard of this being done? I wonder if the revival of modern
Hebrew could be informative - does modern Hebrew simplify complex
grammatical structures of Biblical Hebrew?
Best wishes!
Adnan
Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Patrick Michael Niedzielski" patrickniedziel...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 1:01 pm ((PDT))
On sab, 2012-08-04 at 12:51 -0700, Adnan Majid wrote:
> Hey everyone!
>
> It's sad when natural languages die - we all lose a bit of our common human
> culture. Just read about this effort to revive a Native American
> language, Siletz
> Dee-Ni<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/us/siletz-language-with-few-voices-finds-modern-way-to-survive.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120804>
> in
> the New York Times. The tribe exists, but its language has few speakers. I
> wonder if part of the trouble is teaching a difficult and "alien" grammar
> to older tribe members who only know English. Children may be able to learn
> the language in school, but if it's not widely spoken by adults in the
> community, achieving a stable population of native speakers may be very
> difficult.
>
> This got me wondering whether conlanging could contribute to this language
> revival. A tribe could decide to produce a new, constructed language with
> the traditional vocabulary but a much simplified grammer similar to that of
> the tribe's commonly spoken language (English) - That may facilitate
> language learning in an adult population.
>
> Has anyone heard of this being done? I wonder if the revival of modern
> Hebrew could be informative - does modern Hebrew simplify complex
> grammatical structures of Biblical Hebrew?
>
> Best wishes!
> Adnan
Jessie Little Doe Baird, the leader of the reclamation project for the
Massachusett language, gave a presentation to the constructed languages
club at my school a year or two ago. It's somewhat different than what
you describe, as there was a substantial amount of written work in the
language that had been preserved. Baird maintained that it was the
original language decoded, but conceded that she had to add many words
and even a few grammatical structures that were missing from the corpus.
Her daughter, I believe, is the first native speaker of the language in
several generations, and they are training adults in the Massachusett
tribal community in the language.
Cheers,
Patrick
Messages in this topic (3)
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2c. Re: Reviving dying languages through conlanging?
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 2:13 am ((PDT))
Cornish began its revival in 1904.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Persian and Sound Changes and Uzbek
Posted by: "Eamon Graham" eamoni...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 10:54 pm ((PDT))
Hello all,
I'm wondering if anyone knows where I could score a set of sound changes from
Old Persian to Middle Persian to Classical/Modern Persian.
Also can someone help me sort out some terminology: what was the ancestor of
the official standard language of Uzbekistan? Chagatai? Old Uyghur? The reason
I say "the official standard language of Uzbekistan" is because of the total
confusion over the usage of the name "Uzbek." It can be used to describe an
Oghuz language or a Kipchak language, or it can be used to describe a language
related to Uyghur, which is not an Oghuz language or a Kipchak language. I'm
also hoping to find a set of sound changes leading to modern Uzbek.
Thanks as always,
Eamon
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Persian and Sound Changes and Uzbek
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 2:19 am ((PDT))
On 5 Aug 2012, at 06:54, Eamon Graham wrote:
> Also can someone help me sort out some terminology: what was the ancestor of
> the official standard language of Uzbekistan? Chagatai? Old Uyghur?
Its direct ancestor was Chatagay.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Persian and Sound Changes and Uzbek
Posted by: "Eamon Graham" eamoni...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 6:56 am ((PDT))
Hello again,
It seems that much of the information I need to for sound changes from Old
Persian to Middle Persian to Modern Persian can be extrapolated from this
source:
Messages in this topic (3)
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