There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: constructed language famillies
From: Eric Christopherson
1b. Re: constructed language famillies
From: Alisa Selent
1c. Re: constructed language famillies
From: R A Brown
1d. Re: constructed language famillies
From: Roman Rausch
1e. Re: constructed language famillies
From: R A Brown
1f. Re: constructed language famillies
From: Michael Everson
2a. Re: [NATLANG] Word order and information flow
From: And Rosta
2b. Re: [NATLANG] Word order and information flow
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
2c. Re: [NATLANG] Word order and information flow
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
3a. Re: True Blood Language?
From: R A Brown
3b. Re: True Blood Language?
From: Iuhan Culmærija
3c. Re: True Blood Language?
From: John Erickson
4a. Re: Conjunction Curiosity
From: Logan Kearsley
Messages
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1a. Re: constructed language famillies
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:50 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 14, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Basilius wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:21:19 -0700, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
>
>> I don't know whether anyone still remembers the Arda project?
>
> I do. I even recall that the Yahoo! Group was called Ardalang. But I can't
> find it online anymore, because Yahoo sucks.
>
>> It was a community-driven language family activity. I believe Aidan
>> Grey provided the protolanguage sketch that we worked from.
>
> Yes.
I had no idea. I think I always assumed that group was Tolkienish.
>
>> My own
>> Seinundjé is an early branch from that root. (I can't find my files
>> right now! They are on some other compy)
>
> I remember it!
>
> When the group was still online, I tried to log in and save the backups of
> everything in the files section... just to find out that my account was
> hacked by some teen. Because Yahoo sucks.
>
> BTW, was it the first collaborative diachronic project ever?
>
> There've been a few thereafter, but only Akana seems to stay alive. Lots of
> families for Alisa: http://akana.conlang.org/wiki/Languages_of_Akana .
>
> On the other hand, most of personal projects seem to be language families
> these days. Can people point to a few of the best documented ones?
The Akana one originating on the ZBB is a big one.
Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: constructed language famillies
Posted by: "Alisa Selent" alisa.sel...@student.uni-tuebingen.de
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:59 am ((PDT))
Hi Shreyas Sampat,
so you invented Seinundjé. Can you tell me a bit what the procedure
was like? I would like to know if language inventors only use attested
language/sound changes in general when creating a related language?
Are such changes always regural?
Alisa Selent
Zitat von Shreyas Sampat <ssam...@gmail.com>:
> I don't know whether anyone still remembers the Arda project?
>
> It was a community-driven language family activity. I believe Aidan
> Grey provided the protolanguage sketch that we worked from. My own
> Seinundjé is an early branch from that root. (I can't find my files
> right now! They are on some other compy)
>
> Shreyas Sampat
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Alisa Selent
> <alisa.sel...@student.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I'm interested in constructed language families (like Tolkiens
>> elvish languages). I would like to know which conlangs posted on
>> the website were constructed belonging to a language family?
>>
>> I would be glad if anyone can help.
>> Best regards.
>>
>>
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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1c. Re: constructed language famillies
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:05 am ((PDT))
On 15/08/2012 11:59, Alisa Selent wrote:
> .............. would like to know if language inventors
> only use attested language/sound changes in general when
> creating a related language? Are such changes always
> regural?
>
Well, no - things like metathesis happen ;)
Sound changes in natlangs do not always happen regularly.
Metathesis is one feature that upsets this, e.g. from Latin
_perīclu(m)_ one would expect Spanish for "danger" to be
*periglo; it's not - it's _peligro_.
Analogy is an even greater factor in working against regular
sound change. Those who've learnt French will know that
there are a large number of verbs with irregular present
tenses. If sound change had had its way, there would be a
whole host more; for example, in Old french the verb "to
love" was _amer_, and it's present tense was:
j'aim [sic]
tu aimes
il aime
nous amons
vous amez
il(s) aiment
In modern French, the verb has been regularized with the
stem _aim-_ throughout.
My perception, however, is that conlangers have a tendency
to have a "grand master plan" and apply the sound changes
more or regularly; but the more experience (e.g. Tolkien)
will build in naturalistic irregularities.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (10)
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1d. Re: constructed language famillies
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:37 am ((PDT))
>I would like to know if language inventors only use attested
>language/sound changes in general when creating a related language?
I think it's a good idea to stick closely to attested sound changes, simply
because they have been approved by a large community of people where individual
idiosyncrasies are averaged out. If you go ahead with too much subjective stuff
out of the blue, you'll run into the danger of creating something weird which
wouldn't have occured naturally.
Still, it doesn't mean that you cannot tweak or twist some things. For example,
there is the phenomenon of i-metathesis in Greek leading to verb forms like
_pheresi_ > _pherejs_ 'you carry'. In Welsh it produces plurals like _bardd_ >
_beirdd_. Sindarin has the same sound shift, but Tolkien also added a similar
one with /w/ instead of /j/, so one gets _matwaÌ_ > _madw_ > S. _maud_
(untranslated, but imho meaning *'hungry'), for example. Maybe it's an ANADEW,
but I haven's run across such a change in natural languages. In any case, my
point is that this sound shift is a plausible extension of an attested one.
>My perception, however, is that conlangers have a tendency
>to have a "grand master plan" and apply the sound changes
>more or regularly; but the more experience (e.g. Tolkien)
>will build in naturalistic irregularities.
I've heard about programs which apply automatic sound changes, but I don't
understand how this is supposed to work with all the other stuff going on, like
the analogical levelling you mention, or the fact that words get replaced, or
are influenced by other words to behave irregularly.
Messages in this topic (10)
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1e. Re: constructed language famillies
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:16 am ((PDT))
On 15/08/2012 16:37, Roman Rausch wrote:
>> I would like to know if language inventors only use
>> attested language/sound changes in general when
>> creating a related language?
>
> I think it's a good idea to stick closely to attested
> sound changes, simply because they have been approved by
> a large community of people where individual
> idiosyncrasies are averaged out. If you go ahead with
> too much subjective stuff out of the blue, you'll run
> into the danger of creating something weird which
> wouldn't have occured naturally.
Yes - tho it is surprising what sound changes have & do
happen in natlangs.
[snip]
> some things. For example, there is the phenomenon of
> i-metathesis in Greek leading to verb forms like
> _pheresi_ > _pherejs_ 'you carry'. In Welsh it produces
> plurals like _bardd_ > _beirdd_.
Not really - _beirdd_ is an example of _i-umlaut_. A final
-i had affected preceding vowel(s) and caused it/them to
move towards [i]; in time this becomes so marked that the
final -i is redundant and gets dropped.
i-umlaut is quite a common phenomenon; it occurs widely both
in the Insular Celtic languages and the Germanic languages
and is known elsewhere.
> Sindarin has the same sound shift, but Tolkien also added
> a similar one with /w/ instead of /j/, so one gets
> _matwaÌ_ > _madw_ > S. _maud_ (untranslated, but imho
> meaning *'hungry'), for example. Maybe it's an ANADEW,
> but I haven's run across such a change in natural
> languages.
madw --> maud is surely u-umlaut. This does occur in
natlangs, tho it is less common than either i-umlaut or
a-umlaut.
Vowels at the highest points in the mouth or at the lowest,
have a tendency in some languages to affect the proceeding
vowels; when this happens to a marked extent and the final
vowel becomes redundant and is dropped, we have the sound
changed known as umlaut.
a-umlau is not uncommon in Welsh, e.g. gwyn 9masc.] "white"
<-- *uindo-, gwen [fem.] <-- *uinda.
>> My perception, however, is that conlangers have a
>> tendency to have a "grand master plan" and apply the
>> sound changes more or regularly; but the more
>> experience (e.g. Tolkien) will build in naturalistic
>> irregularities.
>
> I've heard about programs which apply automatic sound
> changes, but I don't understand how this is supposed to
> work with all the other stuff going on, like the
> analogical levelling you mention, or the fact that words
> get replaced, or are influenced by other words to behave
> irregularly.
I agree. At best, these programs can only mark out
_tendencies_. A conlanger may use such a program to save
time; tho whether it does or not, I'm not sure since, if you
want to make your conlang's behavior naturalistic, you have
to then apply things like analogy, odd & unexpected
metathesis, borrowing from not standard dialect etc., etc.
As an example of the latter, cf. French _amour_. One would
expect _ameur_ if it followed the sound changes of similar
words from Latin; but the southern & Provençal _amour_
sounds nicer and ousted the northern _ameur_ - tho I
understand the latter word does survive to denote the
rutting of animals ;)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (10)
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1f. Re: constructed language famillies
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:35 am ((PDT))
I wonder what the protolanguage which was the progenitor of both Volapük and
Esperanto would look like?
:-D
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: [NATLANG] Word order and information flow
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:27 pm ((PDT))
Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro, On 14/08/2012 01:56:
> Does anyone know if the object-initial languages (OVS and OSV) tend to be
> ergative-absolutive?
I'm told that British Sign Language is OSV and nom--acc. The
cognitive--discoursal principle responsible for BSL OSV seems to be
presentational. "The boy eats the cake" > "Here's a cake; along comes the boy;
...and he eats it".
--And.
Messages in this topic (10)
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2b. Re: [NATLANG] Word order and information flow
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" hcesarcas...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:40 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 10:27 PM, And Rosta <and.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro, On 14/08/2012 01:56:
>
> Does anyone know if the object-initial languages (OVS and OSV) tend to be
>> ergative-absolutive?
>>
>
> I'm told that British Sign Language is OSV and nom--acc. The
> cognitive--discoursal principle responsible for BSL OSV seems to be
> presentational. "The boy eats the cake" > "Here's a cake; along comes the
> boy; ...and he eats it".
>
Hmm... quite interesting!
I made the ergativity hypothesis thinking that the patient would be the
topic of the sentences in OSV and OVS languages. But it is interesting that
it presents first the "eatee" and then the eater.
>
> --And.
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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2c. Re: [NATLANG] Word order and information flow
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" hcesarcas...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:43 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <
hcesarcas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 10:27 PM, And Rosta <and.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro, On 14/08/2012 01:56:
>>
>> Does anyone know if the object-initial languages (OVS and OSV) tend to be
>>> ergative-absolutive?
>>>
>>
>> I'm told that British Sign Language is OSV and nom--acc. The
>> cognitive--discoursal principle responsible for BSL OSV seems to be
>> presentational. "The boy eats the cake" > "Here's a cake; along comes the
>> boy; ...and he eats it".
>>
>
> Hmm... quite interesting!
>
> I made the ergativity hypothesis thinking that the patient would be the
> topic of the sentences in OSV and OVS languages. But it is interesting that
> it presents first the "eatee" and then the eater.
>
I can also think about it like: Here is the object and along with it comes
(the subject that does the action). So it prefers using a SV-adjacency than
an OV-adjacency (used by 91% of the languages, according to statistics
presented before).
>
>
>>
>> --And.
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: True Blood Language?
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:35 pm ((PDT))
On 14/08/2012 22:58, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> Not that Eurolangs can't themselves be more complex than
> mere humans can deal with! I'm pretty sure at this
> point that no human being has ever spoken classical
> Greek fluently. There's simply no possible way.
Why?
---------------------------------------------------------------
On 14/08/2012 23:01, Michael Everson wrote:
[snip]
>
> Try Vedic Sanskrit.
But is it a Eurolang? Those Hindu mystics were obviously
endowed with a wisdom denied to Europeans :-)
Of course this all goes to show that PIE was way too complex
for humans. I was a conlang invented by alien visitors to
our planet ;)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (14)
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3b. Re: True Blood Language?
Posted by: "Iuhan Culmærija" culm...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:36 am ((PDT))
2012/8/14 John Erickson <john.erickson.so...@gmail.com>
> Aramaic makes sense, story-wise, but I was kinda hoping for a vampire
> conlang.
>
I am ever so curious to know what a contemporary Ma'loulan would make of
the Aramaic dialogue!
The fact that it's not a conlang doesn't bother me too much. I'm more
dissapointed in that it's mérely Aramaic! If even Icelandic has changed;
and UK and USA English have dialectial differences like jam/jelly/jello,
for example - surely within the at-least 2000 years there would be a
Vampiric Dialect of Aramaic?
Although, I suppose people with a knowledge of Aramaic are enough of a
minority that creating this dialect would be a "wasted" effort as noöne
would notice (irrespective of how interesting it would be for those who do)
>
> Now they've also introduced a fairy language, but it looks like they're
> going the "it's too complex for humans to understand" handwaving route, so
> it doesn't look like we'll get a conlang there either.
>
I wonder, what's better for a tv-programme if they don't use a conlang:
going the "it's too comples for humans" route, or using distorted voices
(or wind-chime undertones, etc) so that humans can not physically speak the
language?
Either way they end up with nonsence - but what is more satisfying for the
viewer?
Messages in this topic (14)
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3c. Re: True Blood Language?
Posted by: "John Erickson" john.erickson.so...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:00 am ((PDT))
>Of course this all goes to show that PIE was way too complex
>for humans. I was a conlang invented by alien visitors to
>our planet ;)
That's pretty much the concept they used in Prometheus.
>The fact that it's not a conlang doesn't bother me too much. I'm more
>dissapointed in that it's mérely Aramaic! If even Icelandic has changed;
>and UK and USA English have dialectial differences like jam/jelly/jello,
>for example - surely within the at-least 2000 years there would be a
>Vampiric Dialect of Aramaic?
Well they're using it only as a ceremonial language, and if it's what their
bible is written in, that might explain why it hasn't changed much, if at all.
Although a vampiric dialect of Aramaic would be pretty cool.
>I have an idea for a vampire conlang on the back burner; it is a
>highly archaic (because the vampires are unaging) relative of
>Indo-European and Hesperic. But I haven't done much work on it,
>as vampires do not really interest me that much, and they go
>beyond the rules of the League of Lost Languages which the
>Hesperic languages are a part of.
My own idea for a vampire language would take someone with WAY more expertise
than me to pull off. Basically, it would trace a fictional history of vampire
society as its centers of power moved, from one era to the next, picking up
vocabulary and grammar, and adapting to the phonology of the contemporary
languages of power and/or scholarship.
Messages in this topic (14)
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4a. Re: Conjunction Curiosity
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:42 am ((PDT))
On 9 August 2012 05:24, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
<tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> As I've described in this blog post:
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.nl/2012/02/moten-part-vii-particles.html,
> Moten has a bunch of coordinating clitics, which function somewhat but not
> exactly like coordinating conjunctions. The relevant ones here are _opa_
> (described in the post) and _de_ (a particle I discovered a few weeks ago
> that helped me solve a years-old headache). When used to coordinate noun
> phrases, they can both be translated by "and", but with a different
> connotation:
> - _opa_ has a connotation of "also", and indicates that the two noun
> phrases refer to separate entities. E.g.: _mjan opa badej_: the cat and the
> dog (notice how the definite infix -e- only appears on the last noun yet
> both are definite. This is a strict syntactic rule in Moten: when noun
> phrases are coordinated, only the last one takes marks of case, number and
> definition, and those extend to all coordinated phrases in meaning);
> - _de_ has a connotation of "that is" and indicates that the two noun
> phrases refer to a single entity. E.g.: _olnesif de vajagzif_: expert and
> student (refers here to a single person who is considered both an expert
> and a student, for some reason :) ). _de_ is also used wherever English
> uses appositions to refer to one entity with more than one noun, including
> with titles. E.g.: _plisif de Beatliksi_: Queen Beatrix (could also be
> _Beatliksi de plisejf_, since _de_ is commutative :) . The definite infix
> -e- reappears in this word order because the last noun is a common noun
> rather than a proper noun). This was the afore-mentioned headache (in Moten
> apposition has a different function, so I couldn't use it for those cases).
>
> They are similar to A. de Mek's _wa_ and _wu_, although I developed them
> independently (my _de_ is actually influenced by the Wardwesân particle
> _ab_, although their uses are not exactly the same).
Perhaps this is just some kind of observation bias I've got, but it
seems that, despite everyone apparently developing it independently,
this distinction (between co-reference "and" and in-addition-to "and")
has become very popular in conlangs. Is there perhaps a WALS feature
for this, or at least one natlang example that someone could point out
for it?
-l.
Messages in this topic (24)
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