There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter
From: Don Boozer
1b. Re: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter
From: Padraic Brown
1c. Re: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter
From: Padraic Brown
1d. Gateway to conscripts (was: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter)
From: R A Brown
1e. Re: Gateway to conscripts (was: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorte
From: Adam Walker
Messages
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1a. Re: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter
Posted by: "Don Boozer" librarian....@gmail.com
Date: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:35 am ((PDT))
But at least we now have John McWhorter at least trying to pronounce Qapla'!
Don
On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 9:05 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> He makes a big deal of how to pronounce /q/, then messes up the Klingon {Q}
> in {Qapla'} at the end.
>
> stevo
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 4:50 PM, David Peterson <deda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > John McWhorter was my former pidgins and creoles professor at Berkeley. I
> > saw him at TED (he was presenting too), but didn't know anything about
> this
> > short video intro he did on conlanging for TED ED. I'm shocked that it's
> > actually quite good. Linguistics has come a long way vis-à-vis conlanging
> > in the past decade! Check it out:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5mZ0R3h8m0
> >
> > David Peterson
> > LCS President
> > presid...@conlang.org
> > www.conlang.org
> >
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:59 am ((PDT))
>2013/9/27 Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com>
>
>>It's not a big deal, but if I had a quibble at all, it would be the rather
>>narrow focus on the well known commercial languages (the Big Four).
>>A segue into a short section that focuses on the bizarre and wonderful
>>array of artistic, logical and auxiliary languages â not just E-o, but
>>also Teonaht and Maggel and Rikchik and the like. Nohhsan!
>
>I'm happy with the selection they had in the video. Even putting four target
>languages into a five minute video might be pushing the limit a bit.
I'm certainly not "unhappy" with the selection! After all, these are well known
conlangs that are in the popular consciousness. Of course, I don't think he
could
have crammed any more in to a mere five minutes. If I had a quibble there,
twould
be the brevity of the presentation! :) This could easily be expanded into a
longer
presentation or even full lecture.
>With more examples you'd quickly end up running from one language to another
>having the time to say little more than their names.
This is true. I wasn't advocating listing every known conlang by any means. Nor
would I have advocated adding any more languages to a short video. A ten
minute introduction would allow ample time for everything he actually did do,
plus allow a véry brief exploration of the non-commercial aspects of conlanging.
For all the awesomeness I thoroughly enjoyed, I came away with the perception
that conlanging is something that happens only in Hollywood.
>It's also more effective to select more or less familiar examples into
>outreach
>productions than just random exotic ones.
Of course. I'm not denying this at all! But it does give one the impression that
conlanging is something that only happens in the familiar world of movies and
books! I wasn't left with even an inkling that this is something normal people
do.
>That gives people something that they have already put into some category
>and greatly increases the chances of them remembering something half an
>hour later and maybe starting to explore the wonderful world of conlanging
>by themselves.
It might, I don't feel this way. I came away with the very clear understanding
of
this as something that enhances movie scripts and television shows, that it is
something that "artistic types" in Hollywood engage in, not as something that
anyone can do at their kitchen table.
I can't deny that it is an admirable introduction, but there is something
lacking. If it were a matter of a strict time limitation (possible, but really,
quite unlikely), then I'd say "it's perfect as is". But in reality, there was no
time limitation and this five minute intro was like being given a teaspoon
of Guiness, while there's a whole bloody pint on the table going undrunk.
Padraic
> -Jyri
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:38 pm ((PDT))
> My other qualm is that the Tengwar are arranged simply to look like the
> English.
> What's wrong with just writing the proper Elvish?
I suppose the English tengwaresque letters could magically morph into proper
Sindarin tengwar?
I daresay tengwar are the gateway through which many conscriptwrights entered
the craft. I can
still recall some boys in my fourth grade class using tengwar for their secret
codes. My gateway
had already been Greek, and I do recall many an early decorated alphabet being
based on
Greek and Cyrillic letter forms. Graphically seeing how the English sounds turn
into Elvish
letters would be visually interesting I think.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Gateway to conscripts (was: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter)
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:09 am ((PDT))
On 28/09/2013 02:38, Padraic Brown wrote:
[snip]
>
> I daresay tengwar are the gateway through which many
> conscriptwrights entered the craft.
Quite probably - though I'm old enough not to have
encountered tengwar until many years after I had already
composed several conscripts :)
> I can still recall some boys in my fourth grade class
> using tengwar for their secret codes. My gateway had
> already been Greek, and I do recall many an early
> decorated alphabet being based on Greek and Cyrillic
> letter forms.
By coincidence, I was recalling just yesterday what may have
been my first attempt at conscript (certainly one of the
earliest) when I was still a youngster in primary school. I
guess I must have been about 10 at the time.
The inspiration, as I recall it, came from seeing pictures
in an encyclopedia showing the huge round medallions in
Hagia Sophia with their Arabic calligraphy. I knew nothing
about the Arabic abjad at the time and just used the symbols
rather as Sequoyah used Roman script as the basis for his
syllabary (tho my system of 'squiggles' were an alphabet).
I do not recall the details now, but from what I can
remember the initial letter of a word had a specially large
form and the other squiggles were written decoratively
inside it.
Other conscripts followed over the years, mostly to be used,
as in the case the fourth grade boys whom Padraic mentions,
as a secret code.
By the time I encountered Greek and Cyrillic, I found them
too similar to the Roman script to be particularly
interesting. I guess as far as conscripts are concerned,
the exotic has greater appeal. :)
I have long had a vague notion of developing a featural
script not on the lines of tengwar but having a cuneiform
character. Whether this will ever get further than a vague
notion, I'm not sure ;)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language
began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Gateway to conscripts (was: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorte
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:58 am ((PDT))
My mother had a big hard-bound dictionary. I believe it was an
American Heritage Dictionary. I'm pretty sure it was published by
Random House. I know it was gray. Anyway, it had an evolution of the
alphabet graphic on the back endpapers that showed Phoenician, Greek,
Latin, Crylic, Hebrew and Arabic IIRC. That was my earliest
inspiration as an inquisitive elementary schooler.
Adam
On 9/28/13, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> On 28/09/2013 02:38, Padraic Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> I daresay tengwar are the gateway through which many
>> conscriptwrights entered the craft.
>
> Quite probably - though I'm old enough not to have
> encountered tengwar until many years after I had already
> composed several conscripts :)
>
>> I can still recall some boys in my fourth grade class
>> using tengwar for their secret codes. My gateway had
>> already been Greek, and I do recall many an early
>> decorated alphabet being based on Greek and Cyrillic
>> letter forms.
>
> By coincidence, I was recalling just yesterday what may have
> been my first attempt at conscript (certainly one of the
> earliest) when I was still a youngster in primary school. I
> guess I must have been about 10 at the time.
>
> The inspiration, as I recall it, came from seeing pictures
> in an encyclopedia showing the huge round medallions in
> Hagia Sophia with their Arabic calligraphy. I knew nothing
> about the Arabic abjad at the time and just used the symbols
> rather as Sequoyah used Roman script as the basis for his
> syllabary (tho my system of 'squiggles' were an alphabet).
> I do not recall the details now, but from what I can
> remember the initial letter of a word had a specially large
> form and the other squiggles were written decoratively
> inside it.
>
> Other conscripts followed over the years, mostly to be used,
> as in the case the fourth grade boys whom Padraic mentions,
> as a secret code.
>
> By the time I encountered Greek and Cyrillic, I found them
> too similar to the Roman script to be particularly
> interesting. I guess as far as conscripts are concerned,
> the exotic has greater appeal. :)
>
> I have long had a vague notion of developing a featural
> script not on the lines of tengwar but having a cuneiform
> character. Whether this will ever get further than a vague
> notion, I'm not sure ;)
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "language
began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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