Dear Robert,
On 12/15/2022 4:57 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote:
This doesn't meet the requirements, unfortunately.
To my best understanding, and of others on this list, it has not
made sufficiently clear so far by you which semantics the
linguistic Appellation should comprise. Following our
methodology, requirements must be backed up by representative
examples that allow for narrowing down the senses to be comprised.
The do not come from authority.
Most examples provided so far did not demonstrate the independence
of the language specificity of the Appellation from the individual
identified by it, but exactly the opposite. The difference is a
matter of fundamental logic of semantic networks, and cannot be
ignored.
Examples must be sufficiently representative for a large set of
data. TGN, for instance, is huge, and domainßinstance specific.
VIAF refers to national libraries, not to languages. "The Big
Apple" is a rather rare case of a complete English noun phrase
used as a place name, which exactly fits the scope note of E41. It
could be documented as Title. Transliteration, you mentioned, does
not create a language specificity, but a script specificity.
Please respect that it belongs to our method to discuss, if the
sense of an original submission actually represents the best
semantics fit for purpose, and to modify it if needed. I simply
act here, as any CRM-SIG member should, as a knowledge engineer
based on the examples you and others provided and try to propose
the most adequate solution, and not to defend any position. I do
not have any other project of my own. Please stay in your answers
on the level of arguments based on representative examples and
their interpretation.
sdh:C11 is a temporal entity -- the state of being named
something -- and not a name itself. While interesting, as
previously States have been widely decreed as an anti-pattern to
be avoided, it does not meet the requirements set forth for
E33_E41, which is that an Appellation itself can have a Language.
Indeed I may not describe C11 as a State in the sense we discussed
it. It is as timeless as all our properties of persistent items.
States are better avoided if temporal inner bounds are to be
given, because they require complete observation, a sort of Closed
World. This is not the case here. But this distracts from the
question to what the language here pertains.
To repeat, if E33_41 is to enter unmodified CRMbase as you
propose, it needs a scope note and examples that disambiguate
scope and senses. Then, *it must* be differentiated from
domain-instance specific use, and the relevance
of the remaining scope must be argued. All examples must be
discussed and voted for.
Rather than an anonymous "requirement set forth", I definitely
would like to see your examples of use of E33_41 in your
applications. Is that possible? Are you sure they fit the
independence from the domain instance? Are you sure there will be
no abuse in the sense I, Francesco and LRM propose?
Best,
Martin
So I believe that this does not solve the problem as stated -
that E33_E41_Linguistic_Appellation does not have a description
outside of the RDFS document.
Rob
On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 3:54 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
Dear Francesco, dear George,
After the discussion in the last CRM SIG meeting, I propose
to follow Francesco's "sdh:C11 Appellation in a Language
<https://ontome.net/class/365/namespace/3> class." as *a
longpath for P1*.
I propose to generalize the context. It could be a language,
it could be a country, a Group. I propose to analyze, if this
can be mapped or identified with LRM Nomen and its
properties. It can further be made compatible with the RDF
labels with a language tag, which are domain instance
specific and not range specific, and of course can represent
the TGN language attributes. For VIAF, we would need a
"national" context, i.e., the national library.
Best,
Martin
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022, 2:43 pm Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig,
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
Dear Martin, all
Sorry to intervene so late in this interesting exchange,
I was away for some days and I'm going through my emails
now.
I encountered the same questions while working a few
years ago in a history project interested in the
evolution of the use of names and surnames.
The approach of the project was similar to the one
presented by Martin below and amounted to saying that it
is difficult to state to which language a first name, or
surname, belongs in itself, except for some cases or if
we consider the region of origin, but what is relevant
is that this specific string of characters is used at a
given time (and attested in the sources) in a language
or in another (i.e. in a society speaking this language)
to identify a person or an object.
To capture the information envisaged in the project in
the sense of this approach I decided to stick to the
substance of crm:E41 Appellation class:
"This class comprises signs, either meaningful or not,
or arrangements of signs following a specific syntax,
that are used or can be used to refer to and identify a
specific instance of some class or category within a
certain context. Instances of E41 Appellation do not
identify things by their meaning, even if they happen to
have one, but _instead by convention, tradition, or
agreement_." (CRM 6.2).
and to add in what has become the SDHSS CRM unofficial
extension the sdh:C11 Appellation in a Language
<https://ontome.net/class/365/namespace/3> class.
This class has as you'll see a clear social, i.e.
intentional flavor, and captures the information that
some appellation is considered as a valid appellation of
a thing in a language (i.e. society speaking his
language) during an attested time-span.
This was also an attempt to cope with the frbroo:F52
Name Use Activity issue:
413 Pursuit and Name Use Activity to CRMsoc
<https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-413-pursuit-and-name-use-activity-to-crmsoc>
573 CRMsoc & F51 Pursuit & F52 Name Use Activity
<https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-573-crmsoc-f51-pursuit-f52-name-use-activity>
which is somewhat slowed down by the ongoing exchanges
around the nature and substance of the social world as
foundation of the CRMsoc extension.
But one could easily provide another substance to an
/Appellation in a Language/ class making it a Name Use
Activity (in a Language) class (and subclass of crm:E13
Attribute Assignment
<https://ontome.net/class/13/namespace/1> or crm:E7
Activity).
This would be in my opinion a good way of coping with
the wish expressed by George at the beginning of this
exchange to "make [this kind of classes] full classes in
the standard so that they are fully vetted and
controlled. It is a fundamental class. It should be in
the standard in the first place", wish that I definitely
share. And also to stick, as far as I can understand, to
the modelling principles reminded by Martin.
And it would also finally solve the issues still open,
to my knowledge, concerning the original FRBR-oo class.
Best
Francesco
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr <mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>
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--
Rob Sanderson
Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata
Yale University
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr <mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl <http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl>
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