Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 625: O13 *triggers* scope note [HW reminder]

Fri, 12 May 2023 12:03:44 -0700 

On 5/12/2023 7:53 AM, Wolfgang Schmidle wrote:

Dear Martin,

Thank you for your explanations, and sorry that I cannot join the discussion of 
this issue today.
I think my point was that your formalisation is for "directly triggered", whereas the flood example 
suggests that "triggered" can also be used in the sense of "eventually triggered". Like 
the movements of the first and last ball in Newton's cradle, where there is no spatiotemporal overlap between 
the triggering and triggered event (and also no change of the kind of processes, and if there is sustained 
tension in this target system then virtually any system is in sustained tension). But of course Newton's 
cradle is a somewhat theoretical example, and if it is obvious to any expert that the flood example fits the 
scope note then so be it.

Hi Wolfgang,
You are welcome! Of course, the distinction between "triggers" and a more general causal chain is a bit tricky. Note however, that the flood waters (I assume) have penetrated into the library, as such, from a forensic point of view, substance of the triggering event is directly involved in the effect. In that sense, it is not as indirect as your example above. Landslides, structures breaking and other sudden events, on the other side, may in principle start without a trigger, just by gradually passing over the threshhold of stability by continued environmental impacts.
Nothing is obvious: Each model is an answer to a question, and there are no models without questions.
Taking the point of view that CRMsci is still at a level of information integration and cross-resource search, I take the implicit questions to be to understand risks, quantitatively, and to understand effects of such kinds of events. Possibly also, connecting an individual object to its presence at a certain time and place in the past, for whatever related reasoning. Conservation experts please critisize my view here! For this purpose, the level of detail I have defended would be adequate.
If you want to make a model of the process details from the flood water entering a building until the effects on the books, one would first select the material with the above questions, ask for detailed analyses as they may exist, and then enter another research process locally with different models and tools, going into physical-chemical-biological interactions. At least, this is how I perceive the research worklfow.
Typical triggering is, of course, pressing the button of a camera, etc. substantial for interacting with mechanical and electronic devices. A delay detonator may put a longer time between the final effect and the starting of the device, but the device ticking can be regarded as part of the triggered process. 

All the best,

Martin


Best,
Wolfgang



Am 30.04.2023 um 17:56 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:

ο»ΏDear Wolfgang,

Your questions well-taken, but please do not seek a logical surrogate of 
reality. It does not exist. The logic can be not more than an overlay, 
approximating and simplifying reality, in more detail:


On 4/21/2023 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote:
Here's a diff:

* label:
OLD   O13 triggers (is triggered by)
NEW   O13 triggered (was triggered by)
(in the examples it was already called "triggered" rather than "triggers")

* scope note:
Part 1 is unchanged:
This property associates an instance of E5 Event that triggers another instance 
of E5 Event with the latter. It identifies the interaction between events: an 
event can activate (trigger) other events in a target system that is in a 
situation of sustained tension, such as a trap or an unstable mountain slope 
giving way to a land slide after a rain or earthquake.

Part 2:
OLD   In that sense the triggering event is interpreted as a cause. However, 
the association of the two events is based on their temporal proximity, with 
the triggering event ending when the triggered event starts.

NEW   The distinction of the triggering event from the triggered one lies in 
their difference of nature: The starting of the triggered event is the result 
of an interaction of constituents with the triggering one, but not a 
continuation of the kinds of processes of the latter. Therefore the triggering 
event must spatiotemporally overlap with the initial time and area of the 
triggered event, and the spreading out of the subsequent phenomena must 
initiate from this area and time and not from multiple independent areas.

* FOL:
O13(x,y) β‡’ P182(x,y) removed

(Domain, range, quantification, examples are unchanged)


About the changes:

Scope note part 2: If there needs to be an interaction of constituents and thus 
a spatiotemporal overlap, then I am not sure I understand the 1966 flood 
example. There is an overlap between the flood and a book getting wet and an 
overlap between a book being wet as a result and the growing of the mould, but 
is there an obvious interaction between the flood and the mould beginning to 
grow on a book? I am assuming O13 is not meant to be transitive?

What is the initial time and area of "mould growth on books stored in flooded 
library rooms"? Is it obvious that this area is connected and not multiple 
independent areas?

Well, it is obvious to any expert. The silent assumption of such a case of "causality" is that the 
interaction would not have happened under "normal" circumstances. The books obviously became wet by 
the flood. No normal library would make the books wet otherwise. The statement that the flood 
"triggered" actually approximates and simplifies the statement that the books became wet by the 
flood in a way that cold not be remedied readily by the library. In general, is not possible to break down 
such processes into discrete atomic logical steps.

There is a considerable logical-philosophical complexity to any concept of causality. 
Therefore we have refused so far to introduce such a concept into CRMbase. To my 
understanding, the reasoning is about defaults of the environment, blaming the more 
exceptional to be the "cause", whereas others could equally blame the lack of 
foresight and protective measures, or any other random factor, just as someone getting in 
the path of a bullet by walking.....

Would that explanation satisfy your question?😁

FOL / superproperties: The new scope note suggests P132 "spatiotemporally overlaps with", as well 
as P176 "starts before the start of" (also suggested by Thanasis) and  P173i "ends after or 
with the start of"?

Additional questions:

Scope note part 1: What is the sustained tension in the target system (books 
stored in library rooms) in the 1966 flood example? Or in a house that is 
destroyed by an earthquake or a wildfire?

The sustained tension in this case is the sensitivity of the material to humidity. 
Whatever would raise humidity sufficiently would "trigger" such a process.

Examples: Since we want to get rid of fictitious examples, would it make sense 
to replace the earthquake/landslide example? Non-fictitious examples would be 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise,_California#2018_fire or 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_Things_Go (an artistic cascade of 
triggering events)

Sure, I wonder if colleagues from FORTH could recover landslide examples from 
the European InGeoClouds project.

Good examples could also be some houses falling down at the seaside around 
Santa Barbara coast in California, because of landing erosion approaching them.

All the best,

Martin

Best,
Wolfgang



Am 20.04.2023 um 14:01 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:

Dear All,

Here my first go:

OLD

O13 triggers (is triggered by)

Domain:
E5 Event
Range:
E5 Event
Quantification:
many to many (0,n:0,n)

Scope note:
This property associates an instance of E5 Event that triggers another instance 
of E5 Event with the latter. It identifies the interaction between events: an 
event can activate (trigger) other events in a target system that is in a 
situation of sustained tension, such as a trap or an unstable mountain slope 
giving way to a land slide after a rain or earthquake. In that sense the 
triggering event is interpreted as a cause. However, the association of the two 
events is based on their temporal proximity, with the triggering event ending 
when the triggered event starts.

Examples:
   The earthquake of Parnitha in 1999 triggered the rotational landslide that 
was observed along the road on the same day. (fictitious)
   The explosion at the Montserrat massif in 2007 (near Barcelona, Spain) 
triggered the rock fall event happened on 14 February 2007 (Vilajosana et al., 
2008).
   The 1966 flood in Florence triggered mould growth on books stored in flooded 
library rooms (Rubinstein, N., 1966)
In First Order Logic:
O13(x,y) β‡’ E5(x)
O13(x,y) β‡’ E5(y)
O13(x,y) β‡’ P182(x,y)
  NEW

O13 triggered (was triggered by)

Domain:
E5 Event
Range:
E5 Event
Quantification:
many to many (0,n:0,n)

Scope note:
This property associates an instance of E5 Event that triggers another instance 
of E5 Event with the latter. It identifies the interaction between events: an 
event can activate (trigger) other events in a target system that is in a 
situation of sustained tension, such as a trap or an unstable mountain slope 
giving way to a land slide after a rain or earthquake.

The distinction of the triggering event from the triggered one lies in their 
difference of nature: The starting of the triggered event is the result of an 
interaction of constituents with the triggering one, but not a continuation of 
the kinds of processes of the latter. Therefore the triggering event must 
spatiotemporally overlap with the initial time and area of the triggered event, 
and the spreading out of the subsequent phenomena must initiate from this area 
and time and not from multiple independent areas.

Examples:
   The earthquake of Parnitha in 1999 triggered the rotational landslide that 
was observed along the road on the same day. (fictitious)
   The explosion at the Montserrat massif in 2007 (near Barcelona, Spain) 
triggered the rock fall event happened on 14 February 2007 (Vilajosana et al., 
2008).
   The 1966 flood in Florence triggered mould growth on books stored in flooded 
library rooms (Rubinstein, N., 1966)
In First Order Logic:
O13(x,y) β‡’ E5(x)
O13(x,y) β‡’ E5(y)

  Best,

Martin




--
------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr
                 Honorary Head of the
  Center for Cultural Informatics
    Information Systems Laboratory
  Institute of Computer Science
  Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
                     N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
    Vox:+30(2810)391625
  Email:
mar...@ics.forth.gr
     Web-site:
http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
               Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
  Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
                   N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
  Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

_______________________________________________
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Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
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--
------------------------------------
 Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the 
 Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory 
 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 
 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625 
 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
 Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

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