-Caveat Lector- I got this in a discussion with some people that think that Ariel Sharon is an honest man. I don't believe so based on what I've read, but I have a hard time refuting what they say based on other than "well, you may read tainted info with pro-Israeli leanings" which may be said for me that I've read more pro-Palestinian or anti-Israeli leanings.
If anyone here has a better grasp of history to either confirm what they are telling me, or to refute what they are saying, I'd very much appreciate it as I may only have part of the story and a hard time deciphering the truth. Private email works too! Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "P&J Blumstein" To: "Reverend Baroon" At 6:54 PM -0800 on 11/19/02, Reverend Baroon typed: >Bashir Gemyal(sp?) got kilt and Israel looked to Beirut refugee capmps to >look for terrorists. Numbers up to 6K (exact number seems to be hard to >find) of Lebanese and Palestinians got tutured/raped/murdered. >The commission that investigated that found Sharon "personally responsible" >for that one. That was the Shatilla refugee camp. Let's look at it. Before Israel went into Lebanon, the so-called Palestinians were there after getting kicked out of Jordan for trying to assasinate the King twice! That was known as the Black September massacre. King Hussein killed about 100k and the rest went to Lebanon. While in Lebanon, the pals did what they do everywhere they go: they brutalized the local populous. At that time, Syria was in Lebanon, allegedly as a police force. In reality, they felt (& feel) that Lebanon is part of greater Syria and run it as a puppet state. They invited the Hizbolla in (fiunanced by Iran & Syria) who promptly lobbed missiles into Northern Israel, killing civilians. Israel tried to get Lebanon & Syria to stop them, to no avail. they financed a group of Lebanese Christians (SLC), who were in Southern Lenanon in the hopes of stopping the Hizbollah. That group had been trying to get the Syrians out of their country. The missiles continued, forcing Israel to enter Lebanon to disarm and capture as many Hizbollah as possible. The Pals who fought on the side of the Hizbollah suffered casualties. These were not civilians. This confusion gave the SLC an opportunity to get back at the Pals for their killing Lebanese by invading the Shatilla Camp. Israel never killed any pals there. They could have stopped the SLC but didn't. Figured it wasn't their business. World reaction blamed Israel, as usual. The commission (which was an Israeli commission, btw, said that Sharon should have intervened. While they found him personally responsible for not intervening, they did not think it necessary for any punishment. >Later Belgium charged him with warcrimes and Hobeika who was involved, >promised to testify in Belgium.. Hobeika was assassinated before he could, >as were two others that were involved with that case. I'll check into that. I've never heard about it or don't recall. >Anyway, the number of dead came to about 18K they said around the end of '82 >after Sharon had been going after PLO and Arafat in Beirut and killed a load >of civilians. Pals have a habit of calling dead soldiers civilians, even to the extent of changing their clothing after they are killed. Some photos show bodies with bullet holes wearing clothing without any. >There was the Quibya attack in '53 that brutally murdered 70-some people, >reportedly over 2/3rds were women and children. > >There was Qualqilya where 80-some people were killed, there was Rafah in >1956 where he admitted to have slain 750 people, also in '56 during the >invasion of the Suez canal he supposedly offed 270 Egyptian POWs along with >Rafael Eytian(sp?) in a couple of different operations. I'll check into these. >Just this year he was offing carpetdealers in Jenin. Sorry, but every outside group that yelled Jenin Massacre, retracted their statements after an investigation. there wasn't any. >There is the 'random' slayings of Palestinians that are not involved in >demonstrations, roadblocks that don't let ambulances through, no medical >treatement resulting in several deaths etc. There are no random slayings. There are a few targeted assassinations of terror leaders on the wanted list that the PLO refuses to capture based on treaties they signed. And many ambulances were searched to reveal bombs and hidden terrorists. That are all blocked until cleared. Medical treatment is done by Israelis. >While he might not have been quite up to Hitlers/Stalins par, it certainly >seems he is heading that way. Bull! He is more restrained than a leader in any other country under the same circumstances would be. He is afraid of being cut off. >how I feel Israel is a quite large terrorist sponsoring nation, They are defending themselves. How many Israelis enter civilian areas and blow themselves up. (Hint: None). > not to >mention the billions of dollars *we* give them. Some of that are loans. Some is in return for military information and research. Yes, some is aide. But we give aid to many countries with nothing in return. If you are against foreign aid (as I am), then it need to apply to all, not just Israel. >They certainly haven't proven to be allies in any way they vote over 90% on the same side as the U.S. in the U.N. The 2nd closet country, Britain, is only 50%. They have given us lots of military research. Captured MIGs, they invented the pilotless drone & gave it to us, they invented the Arrow missile & gave it to us, tons of SPY info that the CIA can't get, etc. During the Gulf war, a ton of supplies was >(Pollard spy >scandal All countries spy on each other. When the spy is from a friendly nation, they are sent home. When it is from an enemy, the spy usually spends a few years in prison, unless they are a diplomat. Pollard got life. Way disproportionate. BTW, the biggest number of spies in the U.S. are from France. >, USS Liberty Read "The Secret War Against the Jews". Info is direct from retired spies.The U.S.S. liberty was sending Israel troop movement to the British and then on to the Egyptians. It was a matter of stopping them or being wiped out. The U.S. didn't respond to their request to stop the operation. Israel had no choice. >and they've even been fingered for USS Cole, Bull! That was Al Quaeda. It is well documented. > the French >tanker and Sept 11th). Ditto. You really think Israel talked Muslims into flying those planes into the buildings? You don't understand something: There are tons of anti-Semitics that automatically blame Jews and/or Israel for everything. Next time, look for proof instead of believing all you read. Paul PS: Here's a homework assignment: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html PS 2: Do you wish me to look up the things, above, that i said I would? I suspect more of the same old-wives tales. Second message I recieved from another guy; ----- Original Message ----- From: "guzzimike" To: "Reverend Baroon" First off, you gotta look at motivation...Europe is TOTALLY depndent on Arab oil, so as such they will kiss Arab ass as much as possible (at least in public..in reality, they hate Arabs and are as complicit in anti Muslim operations as any by Israel or the USA..Remember that Islam expansionism into Europe in the 10th. century(?) was stopped by Charles Martel at the battle of Tours in FRANCE...they are still proud about that , yet the French, on paper , are the most pro Arab/Anti Israeli Euro country ) > Here we go, this is stuff that I've read in various fishwrappers (papers) > and from various reports. I wouldn't say that I put 100% trust in all > reports but the information is repeated in various forms in many places. > For some reason though, most of the accounts seem to stem from Europe > whereas the local reports are from 'conspiracy' outlets. Don't know if that > means the US is pro-Israel or don't care or if Europeans care more about the > world around them or maybe they're in on the conspiracy. hehe > > > Bashir Gemyal(sp?) got kilt and Israel looked to Beirut refugee capmps to > look for terrorists. Numbers up to 6K (exact number seems to be hard to > find) of Lebanese and Palestinians got tutured/raped/murdered. > The commission that investigated that found Sharon "personally responsible" Bashir Gemayel was the Chrisitian Falange leader, friend of Israel. The PLO (aided by Syria) killed/murdered / raped Christian lebanese for years. Their killing of Gemayel just set off a revenge killing wave of the Palestinian refugees by the Falange. Remember that the PLO soldiers hid among the refugees...STILL DO. th warcrimes and Hobeika who was involved, > promised to testify in Belgium.. Hobeika was assassinated before he could, > as were two others that were involved with that case. Belgium=The Hague. Word is that Hobeika was offed because of a drug deal. Not hard to believe...Most Opium went from Afghanistan (Pre-Taliban) through Syria into Lebanon, where it was shipped by sea to Europe from ports in Scicily, Corsica and Marseille.. ds were women and children. > > There was Qualqilya where 80-some people were killed, there was Rafah in > 1956 where he admitted to have slain 750 people, also in '56 during the > invasion of the Suez canal he supposedly offed 270 Egyptian POWs along with > Rafael Eytian(sp?) in a couple of different operations. > Just this year he was offing carpetdealers in Jenin. In war atrocities occur. Such is the nature of war. At least Israel didn't expressly target civilians in discoes, restaurants and universities. Rafael Eitan was an Israeli who wanted to make money by selling out Israeli nuclear capability secrets. He got taken out..This of Julius and Etherl Rosenberg here in the USA in the 1950's...same deal. Jenin..Sharon losyt 36 Israelui soldiers there because they were under orders to do house to house searches as opposed to carpet bombing, which undoubtedly the Israelis have the technology to accomplish...The Israelis could have turned Jenin into a parking lot for a Wal Mart had they wanted to... that are not involved in > demonstrations, roadblocks that don't let ambulances through, no medical > treatement resulting in several deaths etc. The PLO were using ambulances to ferry PLO fighters. If innocents died while in transit, blame the PLO.. > > While he might not have been quite up to Hitlers/Stalins par, it certainly > seems he is heading that way. I disagree.. > > Keep in mind though, nowhere in here have I drawn parallels with Israel and > Jews which a LOT of people do. Even Laurie gets torqued when I talk about > how I feel Israel is a quite large terrorist sponsoring nation, not to > mention the billions of dollars *we* give them. We (the USA) actually give Egypt a LOT more money, but you won't hear about that one, will ya? Ugly ties and no reason for it. They certainly haven't proven to be allies in any way (Pollard spy scandal, USS Liberty and they've even been fingered for USS Cole, the French tanker and Sept 11th). Pollard..Yes, so what? Eveybody spies on each other, even allies...The USS Liberty was Spying ON ISRAEL in the 1967 War...The Cole and 9/11??/what about that? that was all Al Queida..John, you are a smart dude..WAKE UP!!! > > Damn, this just about turned to a rant. :) You gotta realize that this is all about a war of civilizations..The Western capitalistic entities versus the Islamic fundamentalist states....Right now, Israel is fighting the West's war by proxy...Dude, wake up, it's all about the money/...Half of what you hear is propaganda, the rest is bullshit...follow the money trail..that NEVER lies Mike <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! 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