-Caveat Lector- --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: my replies are interspersed
In a message dated 7/19/2002 9:56:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > . Why should I find the > > > idea of Chinese involvement plausible? > > > > > > > Maybe we are looking at the situation from 2 different directions. > > > > I have close personal ties to China. I knew the 6th of Sept 2001 > that China > > had transferred documentation from my company in Guangzhou to the > DOD through > > Rupert Murdoch and Time/warner. I knew that the information would > be > > illegally used by the DOD for the Missile Defense program. It had > to do with > > remote control and missile targeting using a system called ROTHR. I > also that > > the test would not work. > > Which test would not work? To say "the" test implies that you have > mentioned a test. Sorry, I write to so many boards I sometimes forget who I wrote what. I had a company in China that is actually still in China, but was seized by Beijing. It is now run my the Chinese Military. The program we were developing at our company in China had to do with building of an INTERNET telecom backbone. I had word from people in China Sept 6, 2001 that some of the design technology for the software had been release to the DOD from the company by Rupert Murdoch to Time/Warner. Since I have no control over the company any more, I did not give my approval for the transfer, nor did any of the officers or techs from the company. This is not the first time this has happened. Nor is it the first test or even the first test that has gone awry. This is part of the Star Wars Missile Defense Shield that Bush is screaming about. Programs like JSTAR and JDAM are part of the overall program. There is a problem with making this program compatible with US defense technology. There have been accidents before trying to merge the technology. The Chinese technology and the Iraqi technology it is based on cannot be reconciled with existing US OR ISRAELI weapons programs. It has some compatibility with the Russian programs unless the Russians are using any US software. It has been tested by many countries over the years and there have been some catastrophic failures. One of the most recent that you may be familiar with before 911 was the KURSK sub. The Russian were testing the SKALL missile system. There were reported to be Iraqi scientists on the KURSK. Everything worked fine until the US Memphis linked computers for an information swap (the US and Russia are or were in an ABM treaty and they were swapping info per that treaty). The US computer program caused a delay in the launch after it had been triggered. At least that is the story I get from some of my people. You also saw a failed Chinese/US test of the program in the US spy plane that was "forced " down in Hainan. Ask yourself why only 2 Chinese planes were buzzing a US spy plane. isn't a usual squadron made up of 4 planes? Rumor has it that the 2 planes were using different programs to test which program worked. One plane had the pure Chinese system and the other had the US system. The plane that was sucked into the US spy plane had the US system installed. Those planes may have been remote control and there may not have been 2 Chinese pilots at all. Maybe I should explain the connection between ROTHR and remote control. ROTHR is Relocatable Over the Horizon Radar. In China the programs are intertwined with the remote control radar because remote control planes are limited to the range of the control device. The guy with the joy stick can only control the plane as far as he can see it. This is called Line of sight (LOS). That is true of smart bombs too. If you want them to be accurate, you have to be able to launch them within your sight. The longer the range, the less accurate the missile. Having ROTHR on the guidance system increases the accuracy of the missile because it sees over the horizon and adjusts the guidance accordingly. This is true of planes too. If you have this, you control the skies and seas. It is complicated to explain so I am giving it in pieces so that it is understandable I hope. > > Also, if you mean that the ROTHR remote control system would not work > with passenger jets, obviously on 9/11 whatever systems were used did > work. Why do you say it worked? If it hit the building it did not work. It should have been able to navigate safely through the buildings. The goal is not just to fly the plane remotely. The goal is to fly the plane safely and accurately. As for long range missiles in the missile shield the goal is to hit a missile with another missile over a long distance. ROTHR has a tendency to "bleed" into other frequencies. It should not have been used in proximity to other ATC systems. It should never have been tested in a populated area using planes with passengers. Since there is a problem with the accuracy of high speed missiles going long distances, it makes does sense to use slower moving planes and down loading information as it happens and correcting it over the length of the flight. But to fly it into a populated city with a conflicting ATC system used by 4 airports is lunacy. > > I did not think they would be stupid enough to put > > it on passenger jets. > > > Who? And what makes you think this particular system was placed on > the 9/11 jets? I think I explained that above but if you need more information I will be glad to send it. > > > They already knew it is not compatible with the > > software the DOD is using. > > If they knew that, that is evidence that it was not used. That is not evidence it was not used. The DOD has spent billions probably trillions on this program and I don't think anyone wants to go back to Congress to say they are trashing it because it does not work....oh, and BTW the Chinese are the leaders in the field now...and the Iraqis were before that but we put them under sanctions so they could not build it and the Chinese picked up where the Iraqis left off and Hussein was our ally but kicked him in the teeth and Chinese are throwing us scraps and they are working with the Iranians and the Israelis and they aren't letting the US in on it... Congress doesn't like to hear things like this from the military. They don't like to appropriate money for defense programs that they know won't work. So they are going to make them work. Oh and another thing they don't want to tell Congress-Microsoft is the bulk problem and the Chinese program will sink Microsoft if the DOD can't make the program work. The Chinese have a new system and we don't have the source codes for it and we can't duplicate it So they just keep testing it. Outside of testing it do you have any other suggestions? My suggestion was to dump it and build the new system in a treaty with China and Iraq but it is too late. We are in a cyber coldwar weapons race with China and we are at a disadvantage. > > > > > > Furthermore I heard rumors that some of my former employees had > been released > > from China to NY's Chinatown to work on "renovations" at the WTC. > > > Be specific. What does this imply? I am not sure what you are asking. I think I have explained what I thought had happened. > > > I had sent > > a friend to NY to find out who had made it out of China. He was in > JFK > > airport when the first plane hit. > > > What do you mean by "making it" out of China? You have not mentioned > anyone wanting to get out of China. And what relevance does it have? > Also what relevance does it have that your friend was in JFK airport > when the first plane hit? Many of my employees and even the my husband's partner were arrested along with their families. Many have been executed including my best friend's sister. Money is sent to buy people's passage out of China. I had heard rumor people from CAAC and CWM who worked on the Telecom grid for me had made it out of China and were in NY. Those people were contracted to work on renovations for the WTC. Many of these people were computer techs, system analysts, physicist, aerospace engineers. They weren't painters and wall paper hangers but they had been contracted to do renovations to the WTC and they were to be in that building on the week of Sept 11 2001. I had someone trying to get to that work detail to find out who was there and why. Why not San Francisco? These are people I care very much about and I wanted to know why they were in NY at the WTC and then 2 planes hit the building suddenly it made a whole lot of sense of me. CAAC was a subsidiary GDNT (Guangzhou Development of New Technology-aerospace) in partnership with-Israeli Military Industries. Do you remember that an Israeli firm called ODIGO had advanced warning of an "attack"? If the merging of the systems wasn't working my Chinese who worked on the Chinese program would have had a real good idea regardless of what they were being told by the US techs. And it looks to me like the Israelis believed the Chinese Would you like me to be more specific about what happens to people in China who are arrested? I had refrained from too much detail because it is pretty horrible. CAAC holds proprietary information on the technology. Not even China's military has it. They are executing people to get people to turn over source codes and schematics. We did not use China's technology. China used our R&D to build their system. One of the partners of out firm was arrested in July of 99. His wife and 2 young children were also arrested. He as working on radar and targeting for the Chinese fighter program when he was arrested. If he was in that work detail it was very unlikely they were making him hang wall paper, especially if they person hiring had contracted specifically for aerospace engineers who had expertise in fiber-optics (electro optic polymers). > > > > > > China, Israel and the US were working on the project jointly. Until > the Gulf > > War Iraq was also on team. The plan called for an INTERNET backbone > to be > > built through Central Asia. > > Are you talking about the remote control and missile targeting > system? YES > > > My company was working on the peaceful > > applications of the technology, we were part of the team that was > designing > > the backbone. My company was a subsidiary of NORINCO and GDNT and > NORTEL > > based in Guangzhou. We also had a liaison with IMI (Israeli > Military > > Industries). > > > > So I take it that the Israelis, Chinese and US were working together > on a system, though I have not understood whether it was a remote > control and missile targeting system or a system for building an > INTERNET "backbone" in Centra Asia. Both. We were working on the peacetime applications. The GDNT/NORTEL/NORINCO people were working on defense applications. radar, targeting, telecommunications all use that same grid > > > > > > > You are looking at it from Europe. Two different perspectives and > perhaps > > they are connected. > > > > Thought this might interest you > > > > China ready to kiss and make up with Israel after Phalcon fiasco > > SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM > > Wednesday, July 17, 2002 > > TEL AVIV â€" China is ready to restore full defense ties with > Israel after > > pressure from the United States caused Israel to cancel its sale of > the > > Phalcon airborne early-warning system to Beijing. > > The United States has quietly warned Israel not to sell strategic > systems to > > China. > > Israeli parliamentarians touring China and meeting senior officials > said > > Beijing has closed the book on the Phalcon episode and wants to > discuss new > > defense and military deals with Israel, Middle East Newsline > reported. > > The parliamentarians said China has also assured Israel that > Beijing will not > > sell weapons of mass destruction to Middle East states. However, a > major > > Pentagon report released on July 12 reached the opposite > conclusion. > > > > Oct. 16: U.S.: China sells weapons of mass destruction to finance > military < > > http://216.26.163.62/2002/ea_china_07_16.html> > > > > "They have put aside the Phalcon episode and plan to resume > relations as > > before the Phalcon," Knesset member Yosef Lapid said. > > U.S. officials said Israel and China are discussing the sale of > major defense > > and weapons systems, including unmanned air vehicles and a > reconnaissance > > satellite. > > Lapid was one of three parliamentarians who met their Chinese > counterparts as > > well as senior defense officials and strategists last week. The > Israeli > > delegation was comprised of members from the powerful Knesset > Foreign Affairs > > and Defense Committee. > > Another parliamentarian, Ran Cohen, said he would recommend that > Israel > > improve its economic relations with China. Cohen said China was > eager to > > increase trade and imports from Israel. He did not elaborate. > > "We also wanted to talk about the economic element and this > particularly was > > what China wanted to talk about," Cohen said. "China wants very > much to open > > a new chapter and increase the level of relations with us. The > Chinese market > > is a tremendous challenge for the Israeli economy." > > Cohen also said that he was told by China's deputy prime minister > that > > Beijing will not sell WMD components or technology to Middle East > countries. > > Beijing provided such a pledge to the United States in 2000 but > officials in > > Washington said China is continuing such sales. > > The visit by the Israeli parliamentary delegation followed that of > an Israeli > > military delegation tour of Chinese army bases. The Israeli > military > > delegation was said to have included the leading researcher in the > Israel's > > military technology and logistics division. > > © 2002 WorldNetDaily.com > > So the message is that there has been and will be hi-tech co- > operation between Israel and China with military implications. > > If I have to choose between believing that Israel is a problem for > Americans and America is a problem for Israelis I always choose to > believe the latter, primarily because the United States is so much > more powerful. Unacceptable Israeli behaviour could easily be curbed > by an act of will on the part of Americans. The opposite is not true. > > Both you and smilie say that I can understand from this posting > alone, without examining all the rest of smilie's compendious > documentation, that China was somehow involved in 9/11. All that I > can understand is that there is some kind of collaboration between > China and Israel that could have military implications. > > I will have a look at some of smilie's other links. > > But I might say that like anybody, I approach questions from the > point of view of my own intentions and purposes. I would like to see > the United States government, which is impacting negatively on my > life, being brought to justice by American citizens. > > This information about China, which in any case has not convinced me > so far that China was involved in 9/11, seems something of a > distraction from the abovementioned priority (which of course may > not be number one priority for everyone on this list). > > > I agree that the US must be brought to justice by US citizens and I > believe that the information about China will eventually be brought into a > court of law. I am trying to keep the witnesses alive and get the out of > China > > > > --- End forwarded message --- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 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