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*ITNOG*
Peace
and The Blessings of God Unto All that Read this Post,
On, Friday,
February 04, 2000 2:46 PM I received this post from David Thibodeau who is a "Fire Survivor" of the
"Waco Holocaust". He was never treated for
C.S. gas poisoning, yet he maintains that he was in there? He was only at
Mt.Carmel a short while before the "Bill Clinton
Murders" were committed. He never went to prison and he and Clive Doyle are at this time suppressing the *EVIDENCE* that proves that the children and the others
were mutilated prior to the fire. What does this mean???
Well, lets look at his post first...and then the *EVIDANCE* will show us the meaning of this betrayal of the
Martyrs of Mt.Carmel.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Thibodeau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 2:46 PM Andrew,
I think you are very troubled. I am praying for you, that you see the reality of things and stop listening to conspiracy theorist like Carol Valentine who attacks the truth and THE SURVIVORS of the horrific incident. Who would target thoes who LIVED THROUGH IT ANDREW!!! You wern't there and I was so get over it please. David Thibodeau >Andrew, > >I think you are very troubled. I am praying for you, that you see the >reality of things Thank you for your payers, but you should save them for yourself David Thibodeau you are in greater need of them in the Light of what you and Clive Doyle have done and are sill doing! You are right about my being troubled. I am very troubled by what the "Bill Clinton Murderers of the Children of Waco" have done here. Your "Testimony" is one of the things that troubles me most of all. Lets look at "the reality of these things", as you have said. Why David Thibdeau do you refuse to answer basic questions, with honesty, about why you are not in jail? And why does your testimony about the death of the Children not hold up to the light of common sense and truth? You state that: "My lawyer had information on "Judge Smith" that forced him to let me go. He did not want that information out because it would have put him behind bars!" I questioned you at the last memorial April 19,1999 about this story that your lawyer had black-mailed "Judge Smith" into letting you off. You of course confirmed this story, as you have many times on this net and in interviews. At that time I told you that the thousands of people that I have welcomed to Mt.Carmel weren't buying that story. I asked you then and I will ask you now: What was this information that was so damaging to "Judge Smith"? If what you say is the "truth" don't you think that you should come out with it to help those that are still in jail? Also let me ask you this: If your lawyer had enough "Juice" to keep you out of jail; why didn't he get the others out too? Or at the very least have their sentences reduced? What do you say Thibodeau? The people who care about the women and children that were Murdered by "Bill Clinton" would like to know!!! and stop listening to conspiracy theorist like Carol >Valentine who attacks the truth and THE SURVIVORS of the horrific incident. In this statement alone you reveal yourself for who you really are. David Koresh taught for years, before you came to
Mt.Carmel, that he and those that followed him would one day killed by the
President of the United States, (The King of The North). He said that according
to the Bible the women
would be raped and the children would be cut to pieces before the eyes of their
parents.
Why is the work of Carol Valentine to bring this *EFIDENCE* forward bothering you and Clive Doyle? She is only asking that we look at the *EVIDENCE*. You David Thibodeau and Clive Doyle are not only refusing to do this, you are attacking the one that is bringing it forward. What can be "your" motives for suppressing this information? Are you afraid of that it shows both of you and Clive Doyle to be among the Clinton Murders? Lets have a look at this *EVIDANCE* and see why both You and Clive Doyle are suppressing it. Before we look
at your "Testimony" lets look at the *EVIDENCE* that proves that neither you nor Clive Doyle are followers of David
Koresh.
You and Doyle state that the children died from the fire,
gun shot wounds and mutilation from the bunker falling on them. You have even
suggested that they were shot by their own parents and or set the fire
themselves! Both of you follow the government line that the people died on the
19th of April 1993, but the *EVIDENCE* does
not show that at all. Neither does the *EVIDENCE*show
that the bunker collapsed on them causing decapitation and mutilation, but you,
David Thibodeau and Clive
Doyle, follow the Clinton lies, by saying that
it did!
The *EVIDENCE* you are suppressing shows you and Doyle to be two of the sickest liars in the whole
"Waco Holocaust".... Here is the
evidence:
Summary of Preliminary Findings
The dead can speak. Much can be learned from examination of the corpse. For this purpose the Museum has obtained a set of the autopsy reports and photographs. They bear remarkable evidence, much of it yet to be analyzed It is
said that the mothers and children, equipped with gas masks, wet blankets and
sleeping bags, sought shelter there from the CS tear gas; instead of being
sheltered, they died when the structure collapsed on them.
But the
evidence shows that this story was invented. Photographs show the concrete room
did not collapse. The evidence suggests that the mothers and children died
elsewhere under different conditions, and the bodies were brought into the
concrete room after death.
The
bodies in this room were variously charred beyond recognition or slightly
charred; some were severely decomposed, some only moderately; some dismembered
and badly mutilated, others were whole. The people are said to have died
variously of smoke inhalation, suffocation, blunt force trauma, gun shot wounds,
or burns.
Regarding these cases, the rational person is left with a
limited number of explanations:
The Autopsy Reports are fictitious Some of the deaths occurred before April 19, 1993 (the date of the fire) The severely decomposed remains are not those of Branch Davidians A means was used for accelerating the decomposition of some of these remains, making any ordinary estimation of the time of death meaningless. Many of the bodies in the concrete room/pantry appear to have been torn apart, as in the case of Melissa Morrison (Mt. Carmel Doe 74). Only Melissa's lower legs were found. In one
case, the body parts of eleven (11) people were reformed into an agglutinated
mass, as if kneaded together under the tracks of a tank or compacted in a press.
Several photographs are on exhibit--photos were obviously taken after the mass
had been sectioned off.
Even more remarkably, the deceased, found compacted like this, were said to have died variously of smoke inhalation, suffocation, and gunshot wound. It is obvious that these people died in different environments, and their remains gathered together after death and pressed into mounds. No series of circumstances known so far could have this effect. We are told that the concrete room "collapsed." But when a body is crushed by the simple force of a weight falling from a few feet, perhaps the height of a ceiling, the body parts tend to remain together, even if physically severed by the force. They retain something of the original special relationship to each other, as we can see in many fossils. The bodies in this concrete room, however, do not follow that rule. Inside
the pantry/concrete room we find heads without trunks, trunks without heads,
trunks without limbs, limbs without trunks. We find severed feet and a piece of
scalp with a pony tail. We see that an agglutinated mass has been created out of
the remains of 11 (eleven) persons.
Even if
the recovery of the bodies inside the concrete room was so clumsy that body
parts were lost during the operation, one must assume that the body parts had
already been severed. Widespread dismemberment of bodies throughout the room is
not the result of concrete falling from a two-foot hole in the ceiling in the
middle of the room.
Many of
the bodies found in the concrete room were headless, and identification had to
rely on fingerprint or DNA identification in the FBI laboratory.
Thus,
the true causes of death, time of death, and circumstances of death for these
victims are obscured by the following:
contamination of evidence bodily mutilation commingling of body parts displacement of the remains from site of death obliteration of identifying features advanced decomposition incineration perjurious testimony in a court of law And if
so much was done to disguise the manner in which these women and children died,
how did they really die? Did the horrors of violence and mutilation demonstrated
upon these remains happen after death, or was violence and mutilation practiced
upon the living?
Perhaps
much more can be gleaned from this evidence than we have been able to determine.
Perhaps, in combination with other information, these questions will be
answered.
For the
complete article and sources go to:
"See this
clearly" David Thibodeau, this *EVIDENCE* confirms the Prophesies of David Koresh. Why are you and Clive Doyle suppressing it and attacking this women that is
bring it? You, nor Clive are followers of David Koresh, you are followers of:
Bill Clinton,"The Murderer of the Children of
Waco"!
Now lets take a
look at your
"Testimony" and the writings of Carol Valentine.
Waco Survivor's Story(s) --True of False?Can we rely on David Thibodeau's account of the events of April 19, 1993? Please read the following and come to your own conclusions. I see two major problems with Mr. Thibodeau's account(s): (a) important elements in his accounts keep changing, and (b) none of the accounts are credible. Some history: By the summer of 1995, the news of how the mothers an children died in the Mt. Carmel center had made the rounds in the Waco protest movement: The moms and kids had hidden from the CS in an old concrete records storage room that was being used as a pantry in 1993. Instead of protecting the moms and kids, the concrete room became their tomb. The story worried me from the beginning. Mothers are practical people. When the air is poisoned, the practical solution is to get away from it. But the concrete room was a catch basin for poisoned air. It was windowless. It had a doorway, but no door. Poisoned air entering the room from the doorway would have nowhere to escape. Why would the moms take their babies to a catch basin to escape the CS? I wanted to know more. So in July, 1995 I interviewed David Thibodeau on the telephone. I asked David T. whether he had seen the mothers and children on April 19. First he said no. Then I asked who told the mothers and children to go to the concrete room. He said he did not know. However, he confirmed that the mothers had gas masks and the children had no gas masks, so to protect the children, the mothers had buckets of water and cloths and with them; the mothers dunked the cloths into the buckets of water and covered the children's faces with wet cloths. But how could David Thibodeau know what was happening in the concrete room if he had not seen the mothers and kids that day? I asked him. Now he said that one of the mothers came out of the concrete room and told him what they were doing. I asked which mother came out: He said he did not remember which mother. It is curious. First David Thibodeau had not seen any of the mothers, then he had, but couldn't remember which. How likely is it that? There were a limited number of mothers--friends and co-religionists with whom he had lived for years. One of the mothers inside that room was Michelle Jones, David Koresh's sister-in-law, the woman David Thibodeau says was his wife. With Michelle were her three children--two-year-old twin girls and five-year-old Serenity Sea Jones. Since he remembered the incident, and given his personal interest, we might expect that David would remember which mother had spoken to him. And what of the buckets and gas masks that David Thibodeau said the mothers were using? The Texas Ranger in charge of the collecting evidence in the concrete room, Sgt. Raymond Coffman, did not report finding any buckets or gas masks when he testified at the 1994 San Antonio trial of the Branch Davidians. Nor do the Autopsy Reports indicate any buckets or gas masks were found in the concrete room near the bodies, and they do not mention any traces of gas masks on or near the bodies. (See Beware of the Causes of Death.) Some time after my telephone interview, I came across an article, "Marked for Death," published in the Jerusalem Post, October 14, 1994. Reporter Haim Shapiro interviewed David Thibodeau who was visiting Israel at the time. According to the Jerusalem Post, when David Thibodeau heard the CS attack begin, he donned his gas mask. Later a tank crashed through the front doors, and, according to Shapiro:
Now let's look at the September 9, 1999 Salon Magazine story. These are David Thibodeau's words:
the air was full of terrible sounds: the hiss of gas, the shattering of windows, the bang of exploding rockets, the raw squeal of tank tracks. "There were screams of children and the gasps and sobs of those who could not protect themselves from the noxious CS." Neither the concrete room nor the buried school bus would pass sounds from the inside, such as "screams" and "gasps" and "sobs," to the outside, particularly over the noise of
Despite hearing their screams and gasps, the men, including David Thibodeau, whose own wife and step-children were there, never checked in on them, even though their agony went on "for hours." And apparently, to David T.'s knowledge, none of the other Davidian men checked on the mothers and children either. And we are asked to assume that inside the concrete room the moms (who had gas masks) were holding onto the children (who didn't have gas masks), covering the kids' faces with wet cloths while the kids spluttered and gagged and writhed in their death throes, but the mothers' nerves never snapped. The moms didn't dream of getting up and running out of the gas chamber with their babies. The story is not credible. In order to believe that story, we would have to believe the Davidians -both the menfolk and the mothers--were callous, monstrous people, and I see no reason to believe that. David Thibodeau again:
"Around noon I heard someone yell, 'Fire!' I thought first of the women and children, whom I had been separated from." David Thibodeau escaped the CS and the fire, and did so very well. Neither he nor any other of the "fire survivors" needed treatment for smoke or CS inhalation, yet all the moms and kids died. I remember the Branch Davidian men as protective of the women and children. Recall Wayne Martin's words during his 911 call on February 28, 1993: "We have women and children in here. Tell them to call it off!" Or David Koresh's words at the front door on that same day: "Now hold on! We have women and children in here!" But we are asked to believe that on April 19, the Branch Davidian character suddenly changed, that the Davidian men became utterly indifferent to the fate of the women and children and ran like cur dogs to protect their own hide . . . After a catastrophic event in which family members and loved ones die, survivors are often tortured by regrets and remorse. They often ask questions based on both intelligence and emotion, questions like: "What could I have done differently?" or "Why didn't I check in on them?" or "Why didn't I keep them with me?" and "Why did they die, and why did I live?" But six and one half years after the event, not one of the fire survivors has publicly made such an utterance and re-examined a most callous and uncaring action: sending the moms and kids to a dead air cul-de-sac on the day of the CS attack, never once checking on them, running out of the burning building themselves . . . and letting the mothers and children die. The Autopsy reports present even further problems with David Thibodeau's account(s). Surely the Davidian survivors, their families, and their lawyers have looked at the Autopsy Reports, yet they never have raised one question about the anomalies in those reports. For example, whose child was Mt. Carmel Doe 51A? The skull of this two year old was found in the concrete room, but it has not been identified. Is it likely that one of the Davidian mothers had a two year old, and no one noticed? Hardly. What about Doe 65 (remains of a two-to-four year old), Doe 31DE (remains of a 11-14 year old) ,and Doe 59 (remains of 14-19 year old Caucasian girl.) If these were Davidians, why have they not been identified? And if those people were not Davidians, who were they, and how did their bodies come to rest in the concrete room? And why are the Davidian survivors, their families, and their lawyers not talking about the bodies that are entirely MISSING? Where on earth could those bodies be? For more information, see Identification of the Remains. And why have there been no comments or questions from Davidian survivors, their families, or their lawyers about the mutilation, beheading, and selective incineration of bodies in the concrete room? (See Dismemberment and Agglutination and Incineration.) Look at the quadruple amputated and beheaded body of John McBean, Doe 32. or the sawn off arm of Mary Jean Borst, Doe 45. In Western culture, defilement of human remains is one of the most heinous acts one can perform. This is particularly true if you are a Christian and believe the body is the vessel of the soul, to be resurrected on the Last Day and rejoined with the soul to live in Everlasting Glory with God. But not one of the survivors talks about this defilement. Instead, we hear about how the FBI agents pulled their pants down and mooned the Davidians while they were driving the tanks around . . . Surely even the most ardent atheist deplores the defilement of human remains. But the Branch Davidians are quiet. Yes, there is something very wrong with the survivors' accounts of what happened on April 19, 1993, and their reactions to those events. Without the survivor's stories, our attention would be focused on the evidence, and the evidence SCREAMS that the mothers and children were murdered with malice aforethought. The evidence SHOUTS that their bodies were laundered--mutilated, decapitated, blown apart, and selectively burned--to disguise the time, cause, circumstances, and even the identities of the dead. But the survivors stories divert or attention from the evidence. We are so horrified by events that as decent, caring people, we can only offer solace. We would never dream of questioning their word. We never notice the survivors' stories and the government's story are one and the same: The US was only trying to get the Davidians to come out that day, when, ooops!, the mothers and children got dead. Without the
survivors' stories, no one would believe the government's tale. The
unbelievable stories of the Waco "fire survivors" are essential
elements in the cover-up the Waco Holocaust. Back: Burial Gallery Entrance
You David Thibodeau are a LIAR! And an enemy of the Children of God. Clive Doyle's "Testimony" is just as unbelievable. The both of you are involved in the continuing the Cover-up of the "Waco Holocaust" For those that are reading this and care about what is an on going Cover-up of mass murder and are interested in the efforts to bring these two criminals, their friends and their boss "Bill Clinton The Murderer of The Children of Waco" to justice, visit this site: http://www.publicaction.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/page/b_wsws.html
Who would target
those who LIVED THROUGH IT ANDREW!!! You weren't there and I
We know from news reports during the siege that there were agents inside Mt.Carmel Center. http://www.publicaction.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/cover/c_page05.html These PIGS have never been identified. We are sure that they didn't die in the fire, so at least some of the "Fire Survivors" are agents. It is too bad for you David Thibodeau and it must piss Clive Doyle off that there are people of God that will not rest until you and those like you are brought to Justice. Stop this lying! You David Thibodeau and Clive Doyle need to stop putting yourselves forward as spokesmen for David Koresh. You are NOT! There is an innocent man doing 40 years who lost his Mother, Wife and Children in the "Waco Holocaust" his name is "Livingstone Fagan". It is this Man that is the true spokesman appointed by David Koresh. You who are the agents of Clinton refuse to even allow Fagan's writings to be handed out at Mt. Carmel...STOP IT! Remember the Children, ask God to forgive you for what you have done, for God is Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Andrew |
Title: Waco Survivor's Story(s) --True of False?
