[I have attached a long note from AOL followed by a number of responses. Although I have my own opinions on the Irish conflict, I will stay out of this debate. --Declan] ********* From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:21:49 EST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Irish Forum I saw some of the traffic regarding the Irish Heritage message boards and wanted to provide you with some additional information. The Ireland message boards in the International Channel of the US service were taken down on December 11, after repeated postings that violated our Terms of Service. The boards were cleaned up and reopened on December 28th. The TOS violations included profanity, vulgarity and personal threats. TOS and other policies for the boards are clearly posted in the area. Below I'm including the posting announcing the reopening of the boards as well as the "Content of Posts" language that spells out the policies for the Boards. I hope this is helpful. Let me know if you need more information or give me a call at 703/265-2896. Thanks. Jim Whitney _____________________________ Subject: Ireland Reopening Date: 12/28/98 1:26 PM Eastern Standard Time From: <A HREF="aol://3548:Intf Ravon">Intf Ravon</A> Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear members, You'll note a new politics folder has been opened. We encourage you to make this a more amiable place where any person, regardless of faction, can openly discuss political issues and current events. So many of you have a wealth of knowledge from past personal history, family connections or just being well abreast of the relevant issues. We welcome you back to the International Channel boards and invite you to share that information with your fellow posters. We encourage and remind you to debate issues only, and not resort to personal attacks or member harassment. If you believe a post is in violation of AOL's Terms of Service or Channel Policy, the following steps should now be taken to report that violation. Go to: <A HREF="aol://1391:43-25107">Keyword: Notify AOL</A> > <A HREF="aol://1391:43-25107">Message Boards</A> You will need the complete path to the post. For the politics folder, that path would be: Keyword: Ireland > Message Boards > Economy & Politics > Politics > <post name> You must include all of the above. Copy the entire post and paste it in the appropriate area and if possible, include the violation that is being reported. Example: Violation: Vulgarity Additionally, as quoted at <A HREF="aol://1391:43-25107">Keyword: Notify AOL </A>... << Please remember, in cases where you feel threatened or believe that someone else is in danger, you should contact your local law enforcement agency immediately. To report cases of suspected child exploitation, please go to the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children's CyberTipline at <A HREF="http://www.missingkids.com/cybertip/">http://www.missingkids.com/cybe rtip/</A> >> Again, welcome back and may you all find peace in 1999. Sincerely, Intf Ravon Department Manager International Channel Message Boards _______________________________________________________ Content of Posts ** Please remember that these are public <A HREF="aol://5863:126/mB:89768"> message boards</A>, and even though sometimes they appear to be "private" (in that the same several members maintain a continous dialogue), they are not. All AOL members, including children, have access to these areas. 4 ** Irish Heritage message board monitors are here to insure smooth operation of the Forum, not to play dictator or babysitter. When required, posts will be removed. INTF volunteers are also AOL members, and will not submit to harassment, any more than would any AOL member. ** AOL's Terms of Service agreement is always in effect, and will be enforced. TOS rules can be read at Keyword: <A HREF="aol://1391:41-4688">TOS </A>. Profanity, vulgarity and member harassment will not be tolerated. INTF volunteers are not Terms of Service staff; they report violations in the same manner as members. ** Posts inappropriate to the area will be deleted. ** Chronic offenders may find posts removed without notification, and recurring problems will be reported to TOS. ** Get involved as much as you like in the discussions! The folders in our areas are open to all members. ** As well as you can, format your posts to look like the print in a respectable newspaper. That means employing capital and lowercase letters in a traditional manner. . . neither all caps, nor all lowercase. ;) Capital letters look like SHHHHOUTING on a board, making a message written entirely in capital letters an eyesore. ** Feel free to suggest new folders if you think your message warrants one, but please don't be offended if we change the name slightly. ** If you would ever like a post deleted or reviewed, send e-mail to the board monitor, noting the date of the post, and the subject line. ** Our message boards are here for the purpose of discussing various topics. They are not intended as a forum for reproducing news articles or other copyrighted material. Current International Channel policy is that whole articles may not be reproduced on any of our <A HREF="aol://5863:126/mB:89768">message boards.</A> Members may quote excerpts from the article for purposes of presenting their opinion, and if the article is available via the web they may include a hotlink to the entire article (using the complete URL to describe the link. "Click here" isn't acceptable). Posts in violation of this policy may be removed without notice. ** Thanks for visiting Irish Heritage and we look forward to your participation in our message boards! :) ******** To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Platt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Esther Dyson) Subject: Re: FC: More on AOL silences Irish forum sites Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:42:13 -0500 There's a difference between discussing how to seduce children, and "purporting to report the news in an unbiased style and never >admitting that they're communists with a very specific political agenda." Discussing how to seduce children is closer to discussing how to bomb a building.... I am not commenting on the specifics of this AOL case because I don't know enough. Esther Dyson ******* Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:41:49 -0500 From: "Thomas H. Lipscomb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: THE CENTER FOR THE DIGITAL FUTURE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FC: More on AOL silences Irish forum sites Platt makes a lot more sense than the original post did. Most people in the Republic of Ireland are totally exasperated with the anti-democratic remnant of the Marxist fringe terrorist group that today has the gall to call itself after the once gallant IRA. And the Irish are not too fond of the deluded idiots in the US who have supported NORAID and other destabilizing groups, apparently because of some Y1900 problem with their calendars which kept them from realizing that things have changed quite a bit in the old country since their ancestors left Queenstown during the potato famine. Precisely because of the superb understanding the IDA and Republic of Ireland has shown of the digital world and its economic opportunity, Ireland has gone in the past decade from having the highest unemployment rate and the most DOA economy in the EC to its present ability to boast the highest and fastest growing GDP in the EU and unemployment far below France or Germany. Ireland today exports 1/3 of the computers made in Europe and more than 60% of the software, and they aren't even breaking a sweat over there yet.. And let's not kid ourselves. The current peace process between Ulster and the Republic came about not because of anything the "IRA," Clinton, or the latest Kennedy retard in Phoenix Park contributed, but simply because the British-subsidized North could no longer look down their Orange noses upon the Republic as some kind of Celtic Appalachia whose threadbarre Paddys lined up at the border on the weekend to shop in Ulster. They had to admit that the Republic was taking off without them, and they were stuck contemplating an increasingly uncertain economic future on the British dole . These days the average Ulsterman is more than willing to chuck the drums and statues of King Billy, if he can just get aboard too. The current "IRA" and its supporters would far rather bring the technological and systemic benefits of Cuba and North Korea to both Ulster and the Republic-- destabilizing the peace process at precisely the time when reunion is most opportune. That doesn't mean AOL has conducted itself admirably in this matter. But it does mean it is well worth looking into it further before assuming some kind of "no Irish need logon" policy has now been adopted in Northern Virginia. Thomas H. Lipscomb, Chairman, THE CENTER FOR THE DIGITAL FUTURE 145 EAST 74TH STREET, SUITE 4B NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10021 TEL: (212) 794-9058 FAX: (212) 794-4422 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******** Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:58:07 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Jim Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: FC: More on AOL silences Irish forum sites Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:48 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote: ... >Most pornographers have the honesty to admit that they are offering >pornography--and the initiative to set up their own web sites, instead of >trying to sneak into a family-oriented service provider and then whining >when they get caught. Writers of agitprop could learn from their example. Not to disagree with Mr. Platt, but these folks evidently DO have a website, full of material which (of course) claims that they are the victims of terror from the other side. <http://www.inac.org/> JMR Regards, Jim Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "All other nations are drinking Ray Charles beer and we are drinking Barry Manilow." -- Dave Barry PGP=A7D63DA9 + 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5 57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71 ********* Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:55:24 -0500 (EST) From: Melora Ranney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FC: More on AOL silences Irish forum sites This post exemplifies why I shudder to think of all the simply practical issues involved in institutionalized censorship (never mind the ethical ones). "If X isn't OK, isn't it obvious that Y isn't? And if Y isn't ok, isn't it perfectly clear that Z is totally unacceptable?" and on, and on, and on ad nauseam. By the time everybody's done censoring potentially controversial topics, the only thing left is statistical data about incredibly boring subjects of no interest to anybody. Blah. ********* Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 04:22:47 -0800 (PST) From: Charles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FC: More on AOL silences Irish forum sites I would be interested in seeing a few examples of the postings Mr. Platt finds so appalling as to require censorship. Perhaps someone was planning to set a fire in a crowded theater in Belfast. But short of such clear and present danger, I would defend the free speech rights of everyone. Including agitpropagandists. And pedophiles. - Charles - ********* Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 00:13:19 -0600 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "Mark Crook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FC: More on AOL silences Irish forum sites False allegations of child abuse have been heard so frequently in recent years that they tend to cast doubt upon the allegater. ;-) McMartin Pre School, any number of divorce cases, and worst of all, this was allegation was used by the FBI used to justify their assault on Waco. (When the dust settled, there was no evidence of child abuse, simply a lot of dead children.) Now Mr Platt makes the same charge in the defense of what clearly appears to be just one more AOL's attttempts to suppress free speech. Evidence, Mr Platt, Evidence, lest we dismiss you as agitprop. MC And no, I am not Irish, I am not Catholic, I have no dog in the Irish fight. ********* [from a longtime politechnical] Declan, First off, let me say that I worked at AOL for two years. In my experience, they have demonstrated a capriciousness that is virtually unmatched in the online world, and this kind of behaviour is totally unsurprising. At Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:12:42 -0500 (EST), Charles Platt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The only thing that troubles me about the news item is that the terrorist > sympathizers won't admit what they are. Yeah, right. And the Unionists are any better? I seem to recall that there has been a hell of a lot of bloodshed on the parts of both sides, and that *anyone* favouring one community over the other is taking a very dangerous and highly unsupportable position if they want to continue to call themselves "neutral". If AOL wants to eliminate those accounts that result in "reduced enjoyment" on the parts of some members, then they need to cancel accounts and forums on both sides of the equation -- simply silence everyone and force the communications to go elsewhere. As it is, they've clearly placed themselves in the Unionist camp, and they shouldn't be too surprised if they should find any AOL assets in either the UK or the US that are now targetted by Nationalist groups. Myself, I'm damn glad I don't work for them anymore -- the thought of being over here in Europe with a great big huge AOL pyramid painted on my back isn't a particularly pleasant idea.... ******* Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:07:24 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Tjebbe van Tijen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: FC: AOL silences Irish forum sites I do not want to protest against this kind of cernsorship, but to show that also the Internet can not go beyond human social relationships... when they are good... no problem Internet communication can work fine... but when they as bad as they still are in Ireland (whatever part) the same phenomena of bad human relationships in Ireland tend to be reproduced and sometimes amplified by the electronic medium... Strong statements, flaming, is an understandable effect of such indirect ways of communication where you do not need to face someone to say "it". Shouting insults to someone that can not be seen, at the other side of the wall, is now done electronicaly. That is a new situation, especialy because the insults are carried by a medium that records it at the same time. It is different from the shouting over the wall, because there are always realiable witnesses. It is like asking a policeman to come to your house and listen to you insulting your neighbour. Who would do it? There has always been the difference between the 'one to one' insult or threat and the publicly expressed threat or insult. So with the one to many communication of newsgroups on the Internet you always act in a public situation. Now the age old problem is "who is to judge?" In this case the firm AOL takes it on itself to judge. Not surprisingly such a corporate organisation is not well equiped to take on this difficult task. I think there must have been several people making misuse of the possibilities for communication that AOL sells before they started to act. You can even see it as a good sign that big business can not accept outrageous and intollerant behaviour, be it for pure commercial reasons. When I would use the shouting over the wall metaphor again, than the solution AOL has choosen (closing down newsgroups/wensites that permit such shouting) equals the gagging of all the members of a family, while in fact is was only one person in the family that was using bad language. Another approach could have been to knock down the wall between the warring families, call in some people from the outside to help and let both parties voice their grievances in the face of each other for as long as they have energy (keeping them from bodily violence through the assistance of outside helpers). I know it is a silly idea, but such a counseling form of conflict resolution, is the only alternative I can see for the gagging, the shutting down of an Internet connection. In this case it was an Irish conflict, there are and will be so many possible shouting and insulting targets that a more structiral approach than just shutting down of a site or a service needs to be contemplated. One can of course say that a provider should not intermingle, but that seems not to be a practical proposal as the Irish example shows. The creation of electronic counselling facilities, re-education camps as you wish, might be another more positive apporach to this eternal problem. Here the potential of the Internet can be used fully, the wide almost problemless availibility of counsellers that will help to bring some people to the minimal behaviour standards that are needed to move in public space. What I fear that this (Irish) conflict will be just used to criticize the easy scape-goat AOL, because it is a truism that all big business is bad. Freedom of speech though, can not be a product of laws, but is a product of the social relations in a society. We have to do something for it contineously to have it. So maybe there could be some creative thinking to suggest solutions to AOL what to do in such kind of situations.. Tjebbe van Tijen Imaginary Museum Projects (IMP), Amsterdam Background information on: http://www.iisg.nl/~tvt/index.html ******** Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:04:18 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gölök Z.L.F. Buday) Subject: Re: FC: AOL silences Irish forum sites I see America's bigotry towards the Irish, hasn't changed much over the years. Once again it has reared it's ugly head. Regards, Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday Free-Lance Writer; Humorist; Web Master; Mental Patient Vancouver, BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ICQ: 9834094. (wwp.icq.com/9834094) The My Ego Times: http://RidingAssoc.dragonfire.net/ The Official Court Jester WebSite...warning offensive language: http://CourtJester.dragonfire.net/ Cafe: http://CourtJester.dragonfire.net/Marios_Coffee_Express/ Actor Zoltan: http://www.freespeech.org/zoltan/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ******** -------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- the moderated mailing list of politics and technology To subscribe: send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text: subscribe politech More information is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------
