-Caveat Lector-
[APFN Why Waco?} The day of the fire, April 19th, 1993 -
FBI Spokesmen Bob Ricks said in the press conference
"When we found the women and children in the cinder block
area we put in massive gas to try and get them out alive"]
Subject: Re: Why Waco? Patriots Respond!
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:02:35 -0500
From: "Carol A. Valentine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: APFN ONELIST <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "APFN eGroups.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MyFreeOffice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
American Patriot Friends Network <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
APFN1 VEGASNET <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
APFN AUTO RESPONDER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
At 8:20 PM -0500 12/6/98, American Patriot Friends Network wrote:
>This message has been posted APFN MESSAGE BOARD:
>APFN MESSAGE BOARD IS AN OPEN FORUM - POST DIRECTLY
>http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb77532
>
>"We can secure other people's approval if we do right and try hard.
>But our own is worth a hundred of it, and no way has been found out
>of securing that." -- Mark Twain
>
>Subject: Re: Why Waco? Patriots Respond!
>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 08:24:30 -0500
>From: Carol Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Real-To: Carol Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Please allow me to respond to Ms. Valentine's factually
flawed response >to criticism of her work:
>
>> Subject: Re: Why Waco? Patriots Respond!
>> Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:48:40 -0500
>> From: "Carol A. Valentine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
><snip non-valentine comments>
>
>> Gary apparently has not read the US government's Treasury Report. On pg. 92
>> it describes "former cult members" (note the plural use of the word) who
>> were in the "Compound" at the time of the raid.
>>
>> http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/doc/w_doc16.gif
>>
>> These agents were apparently deployed throughout the building, studying and
>> later reporting the reaction of the Davidians to the news of the impending
>> ATF raid.
>>
>
>**What the Treasury reports as "former members in the Compound
>at the time" who later gave the feds information are three people who
>were members on February 28 and left the building after the raid.
>One was Victoria Hollingsworth, an elderly lady who lost faith in
>David Koresh after the raid. One was Kathryn Schroeder who
>was sent to a federal prison and there seriously intimidated with
>lies that Hollingsworth's testimony would put her in prison for life
>and she'd never see her kids again. Both testified at trial against
>Davidian defendants. And 19 year old Oliver Gyarfas evidently
>was bullied into giving the feds some information, but but he was
>allowed to return to Australia and did not testify at trial. When
>you bother to look at details you see no evidence to support
>Ms. Valentine's irresponsible and libelous accusations that
>these people were "government agents."
>
The Treasury report Report says what is says, it is too late for
C.Moore to change the language.
The Report says:
" . . . according to some of the former cult members in the Compound
at the time . . ."
Clearly thereport says the people were "former cult members" at the
time they were "in the Compound." The language says what it says.
>> There is other evidence, though. For example, go to:
>>
>> http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/page/w_d.html
>>
>> and read "Smart Diagram of the Mt. Carmel Center " and "Dumb Diagram of
>> the Mt. Carmel Center." You will see evidence that a deep cover
>> agent/agents were living amongst the Davidians, informing the govt. on the
>> location of the living quarters and offices of the Davidians before the
>> raid.
>>
>
>**I have heard that this map was made with information given by
>Kathryn Schroeder after she was bullied.
Note the sources cited: "I have heard that . . .
The Smart Diagram was given to Ken Fawcett by a waitress at at Waco diner.
She told Ken the map was left at a diner in Waco by an ATF agent on or
about the time of the raid. Ken in turn told me and gave me a copy of the
diagram.
Have a look at one of the names on the second floor diagram.
http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/map/w_map06.gif
One reads "Noreiga." Is C. Moore saying Schoreder supplied that name to
the feds? None of the Davidians I have spoken to ever claimed a person by
the name "Noreiga" lived at the Mt. Carmel Center . . .
Why would the feds be interested in knowing where specific people lived
AFTER the raid? Obviously living arrangements would have changed radically
after the raid, with the roof being shot up, no? And C.Moore claims the
Smart Diagram names were furnished *after* the raid, when Schoreder was
presssured.
Another problem: Look at the section labeled "Chemical Storage" and "Photo
Lab" on the first floor of the Smart Diagram.
http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/map/w_map05.gif
That section has been totally eclipsed from the Dumb Diagram in the
Treasury Report. If everything was on the up and up as C. Moore suggests,
Treasury would have no reason to eclipse that entire section of the complex
when it published the report.
>Some of it may have
>been supplied by Donald Bunds who was arrested on 2/28 trying
>to return to Mount Carmel, held during the siege, bullied into
>giving information, but not called at trial. Neither were government
>agents before the raid, as Ms. Valentine might infer.
>
>> Deep cover agents also took down the ham radio tower before the ATF raid .
>> . . and set up a virtual test laboratory of surveillance devices within the
>> Mt. Carmel Center (see London Times article of March 21, 1993 at:
>>
>> http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig01.jpg
>>
>
>**This article says nothing of the sort. It merely talks about the kind
>of surveillance that supposedly was being used *after* the raid happened.
Allow me to quote from the article:
"Even before the raid last month, the compound had been infiltrated by
undercover agents worried by the growing arsenal of weapons. While the
agents were inside, normal telephones are believed to have been repolaced
by converted sets which double as microphones to rely all conversations
inside a room."
Dig it? The Mt. Carmel Center
"had been infiltrated by undercover agents .. . "
and look at this quote:
"The walls, air vents, and chimneys are all places where tiny fibre optic
microphones and cameras have been inserted to relay audio and visual images
back to the control centre."
There it is, in black and white.
===
Carol A. Valentine
President, Public Action, Inc.
Have you seen the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum?
See what they did to the mothers and children--
http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter
"In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
--attr. George Orwell-
==========================================================================
Subject: Re: Why Waco? Patriots Respond!
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:15:34 -0500
From: "Carol A. Valentine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Real-To: "Carol A. Valentine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Ken--I am leaving for the airport for an out-of-the country trip in a few
hours. I look forward to continuing the discussion of Waco when I return
in mid-January. I congratulate you for having opened up the subject again
in the manner you have.
The suff on Koresh and Israel is FASCINATING.
Please do continue to post these excerpts -- one a day is just great! A
quick read. There is SO much data there in the Museum that one short
segment a day really helps people get a mastery of the subject.
Take care and have a happy Christmas and New Year.
===
Carol A. Valentine
President, Public Action, Inc.
Have you seen the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum?
See what they did to the mothers and children--
http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter
"In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
--attr. George Orwell
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[CTRL] Fwd: Re: Why Waco Patriots Respond! (12/7/98) New Info:
American Patriot Friends Network Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:58:05 -0500
