Nessie Thank you for commenting on our project, I respond below to the topic of electronic harassment and the possibilites for "justice". Just to clarify though, our main work is regards those who survived abuse and experimentation as children and younger people. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of this population does not currently experience electronic harassment, although it is mentioned by a few people, probably less than ten, who have responded. It would appear that most of those who are currently targeted lack childhood abuse experiences. I am frequently contacted by those victimized in this manner, but I refer them to Cheryl Welsch who specialized in this sort of situation. The majority of victims appear to be older women who are targeted without apparent (to them) reason, with a minority of men, most of who seem to be older also. There also seems to be a population of younger men. Most of the inquiries are from the south or from California. There are also people from the Scandinavian countries and the UK. Several of the older men do seem to have some reason for targeting, such as prior history in the engineering field or aeronautical industry. Not that this is a reason per se but it has come up several times so maybe it is someone's reason. This group seems to be fairly easy to characterize and it is too bad many of them so angry that they are unable to submit data for a study. I think a pattern would emerge with a fairly small sample. It could be done simply on the basis of location. The child survivor information is quite a bit more complex. So far as our low probability of ever gaining any legal redress, yeah maybe, but I refer you to the case of Dorothy Proctor v. Corrections Services Canada. Lynne's interview on the topic just got posted. The director of CSC who was named in the suit has just now retired, he was ordered to testify. There is a second report from the McGill ethics specialists who found that CSC should pay up to anyone abused while in any of the facilities. CSC attempted to suppess this report but it was leaked to the the Ottawa Citizen by someone at CSC. There is a US doctor and his company mentioned by name in this report as being directly involved in the experimentation. Although it is a circuitious path, there are probably more documents in Canada which list names of "researchers". Additionally. a huge volume of information exists in the psychology literature regarding human experimentation. I am sure many of us recall the god-like attitude of doctors in the 1950's, they thought they could publish the findings of their research experiments with impunity. Some gems include the production of stuttering through the application of electric shock. Another example are the drawings of a survivor which depict an isolation chamber and the devices used to further isolate the arms of the child. These drawings are nearly identical to those in a Scientific American article describing the sensory deprivation experiments at McGill University, supervised by Donald Hebb, successor to Ewen Cameron. No, the article does not mention the kids they tortured too but another book on the subject does muse about the different responses of other age groups to such conditions. (A group of Irish dissidents who were awarded money by an international court based their case on the sensory deprivation techniques developed by the US and used against them in a UK prison, so some folks have received redress for US experimentation recorded in the literature. --see The Guineapigs, penquin press, 70's) There will probably be some interesting references in the notes of the grad students who will soon be distinquished old farts donating their papers to their alma maters for posterity. Yeah it will take a while to find the connections but they are there, despite the fact that the CIA thinks they burned all the documents. They only got their copies. Portions of other half of the paper trail will still be intact in the files of the university researchers who thought they were doing high science. I doubt we will convict many people though as most of them will be dead by the time we get it all figured out but there are some universities and government agencies who have some pretty deep pockets. We might tarnish a few of those shining repuations, and best of all we might get some other potential researcher to think twice before he plugs some little kid into the machine, all in the name of the red threat. Geez, Lynne has already been quite instrumental in restructuring the administration of Corrections Sevices Canada-- at least that is what the behaviour of the MPs indicates, since they are now congratulating her on her work while the director is having to retire early. That is an effect dont ya think? We are only half way into that can of worms and they are already starting to drop out. Justice has many faces. The courts might side with the perps but the politicians are not so constrained. We have a great deal of patience and motivation. Patty At 08:19 PM 08/17/2000 -0700, you wrote: >[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: >> >>The data is being entered into a computer database > . . .etc. > >This is an excellent approach to analyzing anecdotal data. It will >probably lead to significant discoveries. It is unlikely, however, to lead >to any convictions. You're going to have to catch perps in the act to do >that. Even then, expect the courts to side with the perps. <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! 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