On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 06:41:14PM +0100, Jim Dixon wrote:
> Of course, most of this discussion revolves around one word: "is". If you
> said "the Internet _can be seen_ as a tree", few would disagree with you,
> especially if you allowed for the fact that that tree is continuously
> changing its
Tyler Durden wrote:
Someone enlighten me here...I don't see this as obvious. I might
certainly be willing to pay to route someone else's message if I
understand that to be the real cost of mesh connectivity. In other
words, say I'm driving down the FDR receiving telemetry about the road
condit
will just send the stuff
through the other link.
-TD
From: Jim Dixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: sunder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hierarchy, Force Monopoly, and Geodesic Societies
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:41:14 +0100 (BST)
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, sunder w
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, sunder wrote:
> > The term is used because most or all trees in the region where the English
> > language originated are shaped just like that: they have a single trunk
> > which forks into branches which may themselves fork and so on. These
> > branches do not connect back t
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> > A "tree" as the term is used in mathematics and computer science has a
>
> A tree as the term is used in a human language refers to a shape. Ditto
If you want to participate in technical discussions, discipline yourself
to use the relevant language corr
Jim Dixon wrote:
The term is used because most or all trees in the region where the English
language originated are shaped just like that: they have a single trunk
which forks into branches which may themselves fork and so on. These
branches do not connect back to one another.
I believe the real
At 3:55 AM -0700 4/11/04, Bill Stewart wrote:
>The biggest problems are all at layer 9.
Exactly.
And, I would claim, that because of book-entry settlement, the latency
thereof, the need to send someone to jail if they lie about a book entry,
and the unavailability of bearer transaction settlement
On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 12:29:11AM +0100, Jim Dixon wrote:
> A "tree" as the term is used in mathematics and computer science has a
A tree as the term is used in a human language refers to a shape. Ditto
mesh. Have you seen a fisherman's net? Do you think a fisherman or a weaver
uses a mathematic
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, sunder wrote:
> > Yes. I know what a tree is, and I am quite familiar with structure of
> > the Internet. These very pretty pictures certainly look like the Internet
> > I am familiar with, but don't resemble trees.
>
> It is a tree. I'll give you a hint. Think of this:
>
>
> It's a tree
No, it's not a tree
>>> I thought we were sort of an autonomous collective!
>> Watery marketers lobbing Powerpoints is no basis for a form of architecture
> Network engineers spend a lot of time making sure that their networks, and
> the Internet, are not trees. Multiple pe
On Fri, Apr 09, 2004 at 08:29:27PM +0100, Jim Dixon wrote:
> Yes. I know what a tree is, and I am quite familiar with structure of
> the Internet. These very pretty pictures certainly look like the Internet
> I am familiar with, but don't resemble trees.
There's a continuum between a tree and a
Tyler Durden wrote:
> RAH wrote...
> >Only if they pay me cash
>
> few miles. If I'm a router, I'm also sending that info behind me (which is
> routing I'm paying for basically), but I will understand that the reason I
> am getting my telemetry is precisely because there's a string of "me's" in
Jim Dixon wrote:
Yes. I know what a tree is, and I am quite familiar with structure of
the Internet. These very pretty pictures certainly look like the Internet
I am familiar with, but don't resemble trees.
It is a tree. I'll give you a hint. Think of this:
"God is like an infinite sphere, who
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> > Yes. I know what a tree is, and I am quite familiar with structure of
> > the Internet. These very pretty pictures certainly look like the Internet
> > I am familiar with, but don't resemble trees.
>
> There's a continuum between a tree and a high-dime
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> > > Internet is mostly a tree (if you look at the connectivity maps).
> >
> > Not at all. A tree has a root; the Internet doesn't have one. Instead
> > you have several thousand autonomous systems interconnecting at a large
> > number of peering points.
>
Meshnets (everyone's a router) is cool, admittedly. But are you going
to spend *your* battery life routing someone else's message?
Fixed P2P energy costs are trivial. Not so for mobile P2P.
And if your meshnodes are mains-powered, you have wires going there,
so wireless is less useful. Solar
At 8:29 PM +0100 4/9/04, Jim Dixon wrote:
>Traffic was following a geodesic --
>but not a geographic geodesic.
Right.
Geodesic is a topologic content. In three (two?) dimensions, a geodesic is
a great circle route across a sphere. In higher dimensions, it's something
else.
No. I don't know the m
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> Internet is mostly a tree (if you look at the connectivity maps).
Not at all. A tree has a root; the Internet doesn't have one. Instead
you have several thousand autonomous systems interconnecting at a large
number of peering points.
>
On Fri, Apr 09, 2004 at 06:22:06PM +0100, Jim Dixon wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> > Internet is mostly a tree (if you look at the connectivity maps).
>
> Not at all. A tree has a root; the Internet doesn't have one. Instead
> you have several thousand autonomous systems in
At 10:43 AM -0700 4/9/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
>Meshnets (everyone's a router) is cool, admittedly. But are you going
>to spend *your* battery life routing someone else's message?
Only if they pay me cash.
:-)
Cheers,
RAH
--
-
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwri
RAH wrote...
At 10:43 AM -0700 4/9/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
>Meshnets (everyone's a router) is cool, admittedly. But are you going
>to spend *your* battery life routing someone else's message?
Only if they pay me cash
Someone enlighten me here...I don't see this as obvious. I might certainl
On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 03:29:58PM -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> At 11:28 AM -0700 4/8/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
> >Geodesic means shortest path, and you'll note if you play with
> >tracert that the shortest path (as seen on Earth's surface) is rarely
> >taken.
A pretty densely distributed r
At 01:56 PM 4/8/04 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>[Nanotechology at least holds out the possibility of making Von
>Neumann machines, that is, switches which make copies of themselves,
You mean Johnny's *replicators*, a vN machine is just one with
a changable program store. But you mentioned Jared
At 03:29 PM 4/8/04 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>At 11:28 AM -0700 4/8/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
>>Geodesic means shortest path, and you'll note if you play with
>>tracert that the shortest path (as seen on Earth's surface) is rarely
>>taken.
>
>Measure the path in time?
Yeah, some dead frenc
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At 4:41 AM + 4/8/04, Daniel Pineu wrote:
>I am very curious about what are your views about the twin concept
>of hierarchy
Hierarchy emerges as a result of the economics of information
switching.
When you have expensive nodes (brains) and inexpen
se, and certainly not
a hierarchy that can somehow be traced to a linear measure of switching
capability.
As for the tem "geodesic", I have to admit it's cool sounding in this
context.
-TD
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC:
At 11:28 AM -0700 4/8/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
>Geodesic means shortest path, and you'll note if you play with
>tracert that the shortest path (as seen on Earth's surface) is rarely
>taken.
Measure the path in time?
:-)
Cheers,
RAH
--
-
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer
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At 4:43 PM -0700 4/8/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
>Feel free to ignore any constructive hints of course :-) your prose
>is more
>identifying than your pk sig.
Apropros of actually something, that's how they used to go after
Detweiller around here wh
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