Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hello, On Sat 09 Apr 2022 at 02:52pm +02, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > On a side note, the dpkg maintainer replied to my message, dropping the > -ctte Cc, wherein he claims that the warning has been removed: Yes, it has been removed for some days now -- sorry, thought that was more widely known. >

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Sat, 2022-04-09 at 14:52 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > On a side note, the dpkg maintainer replied to my message, dropping > the -ctte Cc, wherein he claims that the warning has been removed: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2022/04/msg7.html So one of the statements there is: |

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 12:07:25PM -0700, Sean Whitton wrote: > Hello Wouter, > > On Fri 08 Apr 2022 at 09:36AM +02, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > > Given that, in case the dpkg maintainer chooses to remain silent > > again, I believe the only way forward is for the TC to recommend a GR > > under §4

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hello Wouter, On Fri 08 Apr 2022 at 09:36AM +02, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > Given that, in case the dpkg maintainer chooses to remain silent > again, I believe the only way forward is for the TC to recommend a GR > under §4.2.1 of the consitution. Perhaps there is some appropriate GR that at some

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hi Helmut, On Fri, 2022-04-08 at 20:04 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote: > We vehemently disagree on how severe those bugs are, > but at least we've stopped selling them as features it seems. Could you please give examples where such "selling as a feature" happened? Please point to somewhere where som

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 09:39:30AM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote: > It sounds like at least one patch has already been rejected, not with > comments about the patch needing work (which it absolutely does), but AIUI > with "usrmerge is broken by design". That seems like sufficient proof that > the p

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On April 8, 2022 6:31:27 AM PDT, Wookey wrote: >If they want to prove that no patches for the current approach will >ever be accepted, that can only be done by engaging further. Yes it >will be hard work, but if it's not done we are just stuck. It sounds like at least one patch has already been

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, 2022-04-08 at 15:56 +0200, Ansgar wrote: > On Fri, 2022-04-08 at 14:31 +0100, Wookey wrote: > > At this point I am more disappointed in the people who keep insisting > > that 'it mostly works' is good enough, than I am in the bloody-minded > > dpkg-maintainer. Debian is not a 'mostly works'

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 02:31:27PM +0100, Wookey wrote: > On 2022-04-08 09:36 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > > > The dpkg maintainer has chosen not to engage with the TC in #994388, and > > now seems to be actively subverting a validly-made TC decision. > > > > I do believe it reasonable to as

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, 2022-04-08 at 14:31 +0100, Wookey wrote: > At this point I am more disappointed in the people who keep insisting > that 'it mostly works' is good enough, than I am in the bloody-minded > dpkg-maintainer. Debian is not a 'mostly works' project. We do things > properly - or at least we used t

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On 2022-04-08 09:36 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > The dpkg maintainer has chosen not to engage with the TC in #994388, and > now seems to be actively subverting a validly-made TC decision. > > I do believe it reasonable to assume the dpkg maintainer has a point if > he believes that the curre

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 03:41:25AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 1:48 AM Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > > > The nuclear option here is obviously to take maintenance of dpkg away > > from the dpkg maintainer unless and until he decides to follow the > > rules. > > This

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hi, On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 1:48 AM Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > The nuclear option here is obviously to take maintenance of dpkg away > from the dpkg maintainer unless and until he decides to follow the > rules. This song is for Guillem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnoX81TC6jk Kind regar

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 01:28:16PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 09:36:21AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > FWIW, I think the TC should punt this bug to a GR. > > > > The dpkg maintainer has chosen not to engage with the TC in #994388, and > > now seems to be activel

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 09:36:21AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > FWIW, I think the TC should punt this bug to a GR. > > The dpkg maintainer has chosen not to engage with the TC in #994388, and > now seems to be actively subverting a validly-made TC decision. > > I do believe it reasonable to as

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hi, On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 03:14:36PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote: > It would appear that the situation has deteriorated further. dpkg 1.21.2 > now issues a warning on all merged-usr systems: > > Setting up dpkg (1.21.2) ... > dpkg: warning: System unsupported due to merged-usr-via-aliased-dirs.

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hi Luca, On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 12:43:23PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote: > Well, of course it's incomplete - if it is as it appears to be and the > maintainer refuses to engage in any way, how can any reasonable > progress be made? Especially in the fact of constantly shifting goal > posts. First a

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 11:56:02PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 03:14:37PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote: > > It would appear that the situation has deteriorated further. dpkg 1.21.2 > > now issues a warning on all merged-usr systems: > > > > Setting up dpkg (1.21.2) ... > >

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Tue, 2022-03-29 at 08:24 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote: > Hi Luca, > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 10:24:03PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > Also worth noting that a couple of days ago, the author wrote on > > #debian-devel that some time ago the patch was presented to the dpkg > > maintainer, who re

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 08:24:50AM +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote: > On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 10:24:03PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > Also worth noting that a couple of days ago, the author wrote on > > #debian-devel that some time ago the patch was presented to the dpkg > > maintainer, who rejected

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hi Luca, On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 10:24:03PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote: > Also worth noting that a couple of days ago, the author wrote on > #debian-devel that some time ago the patch was presented to the dpkg > maintainer, who rejected it with an answer along the lines of the usual > "usrmerge is

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 18:04:14 + Luca Boccassi wrote: > On Fri, 2022-03-25 at 11:32 -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > Luca Boccassi dijo [Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 02:28:12PM +]: > > > I am part of that group, and that is definitely _not_ why I wouldn't > > > touch dpkg with a barge pole as things st

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 09:12 +0100, Ansgar wrote: > On Tue, 2022-03-15 at 15:14 -0700, Josh Triplett wrote: > > This escalation seems in direct contradiction to the tech-ctte > > decision in 994388. > > It already confuses users, for example: It was pointed out in #-devel that there are bugs in `d

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:05:26 -0600 Gunnar Wolf wrote: > However, even given his attitude, I trust he would apply a correctly > done patch addressing the issue at hand. I just read the dpkg git commit (57e084a52e1ede33b7914c3e0357311ac370a186) that added this warning in the first place. Quoting th

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, 2022-03-25 at 11:32 -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Luca Boccassi dijo [Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 02:28:12PM +]: > > I am part of that group, and that is definitely _not_ why I wouldn't > > touch dpkg with a barge pole as things stand (and have stood for > > years). You are making a gigantic lea

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Luca Boccassi dijo [Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 02:28:12PM +]: > I am part of that group, and that is definitely _not_ why I wouldn't > touch dpkg with a barge pole as things stand (and have stood for > years). You are making a gigantic leap with that assumption, not sure > what you base it on. As a d

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On 25/03/2022 16:25, Russ Allbery wrote: Luca Boccassi writes: But anyway, it turns out it's all moot because - drum roll - there is a patch: https://0x0.st/oNFG.diff This was shared just now on #debian-devel IRC by user 'uau', linked here with explicit permission. This is fantastic, t

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Russ Allbery dijo [Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 04:50:44PM -0700]: > > I think it's appropriate for people to wait on such work until there's > > guidance from the TC ensuring that such a patch will be accepted. > > Otherwise, anyone spending time writing it is spending substantial > > effort that may well

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Luca Boccassi writes: > But anyway, it turns out it's all moot because - drum roll - there is a > patch: > https://0x0.st/oNFG.diff > This was shared just now on #debian-devel IRC by user 'uau', linked > here with explicit permission. This is fantastic, thank you so much! Is the author follow

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, 2022-03-25 at 14:30 +0100, Helmut Grohne wrote: > On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 10:46:01AM +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > Let me reverse the question: this stuff has been known and going on for > > what, 3 years? Why do _you_ think it is that nobody has stepped up to > > write a patch? In the sa

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 10:46:01AM +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > Let me reverse the question: this stuff has been known and going on for > what, 3 years? Why do _you_ think it is that nobody has stepped up to > write a patch? In the same time lapse everybody involved has written > mountains of code

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 16:22 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Luca Boccassi writes: > > > If it was possible to do it, it would have already happened, and we > > wouldn't be discussing it at all, it would have just been done. > > Has someone written a patch against dpkg that causes it to do the right

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 03:14:37PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote: > It would appear that the situation has deteriorated further. dpkg 1.21.2 > now issues a warning on all merged-usr systems: > > Setting up dpkg (1.21.2) ... > dpkg: warning: System unsupported due to merged-usr-via-aliased-dirs. > dpk

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:24:02 -0700 Sean Whitton wrote: > This is how I see it as well. Putting aside the postinst warning, the I > can't see anything the TC could do beyond what we've already done, until > there's a patch on the table. I'm glad to hear that the postinst warning is something tha

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hello, On Thu 24 Mar 2022 at 04:50PM -07, Russ Allbery wrote: > Josh Triplett writes: > >> I think it's appropriate for people to wait on such work until there's >> guidance from the TC ensuring that such a patch will be accepted. >> Otherwise, anyone spending time writing it is spending substan

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Josh Triplett writes: > I think it's appropriate for people to wait on such work until there's > guidance from the TC ensuring that such a patch will be accepted. > Otherwise, anyone spending time writing it is spending substantial > effort that may well be wasted. I think this is a totally fair

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:22:38 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote: > Luca Boccassi writes: > > > If it was possible to do it, it would have already happened, and we > > wouldn't be discussing it at all, it would have just been done. > > Has someone written a patch against dpkg that causes it to do the righ

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Luca Boccassi writes: > If it was possible to do it, it would have already happened, and we > wouldn't be discussing it at all, it would have just been done. Has someone written a patch against dpkg that causes it to do the right thing? > In the end, at the very least this is a _workable_ propo

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 13:24 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Josh Triplett writes: > > On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:35:10 -0700 Russ Allbery > > wrote: > > > > That said, I personally am disappointed that the folks who have > > > been > > > pushing merged-/usr forward are willing to leave dpkg in a known-

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 01:24:39PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Josh Triplett writes: > > On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:35:10 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote: > > >> That said, I personally am disappointed that the folks who have been > >> pushing merged-/usr forward are willing to leave dpkg in a known-buggy

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Josh Triplett writes: > On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:35:10 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote: >> That said, I personally am disappointed that the folks who have been >> pushing merged-/usr forward are willing to leave dpkg in a known-buggy >> state without attempting to patch it to fix the remaining issues. I

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:35:10 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote: > I think this accidentally confuses the related states of "unsupported" and > "buggy." We know that merged-/usr is buggy, in that one can construct a > set of package operations that leave the system in an invalid state. We > have a project

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:56:54 +0100 Helmut Grohne wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 09:31:21AM -0700, Sean Whitton wrote: > > We should distinguish two senses of "supported". > > > > There is the sense of what Debian-the-project supports. That is > > specified in the TC decision. That is not subj

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hi Sean, On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 09:31:21AM -0700, Sean Whitton wrote: > We should distinguish two senses of "supported". > > There is the sense of what Debian-the-project supports. That is > specified in the TC decision. That is not subjective. This could be a language issue on my side. As I

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Helmut Grohne writes: > What is supported is a bit subjective I fear. At this point, neither > merged-/usr nor unmerged-/usr is supported well. Both are broken in one > way or another and nobody steps up to fix the mess. In particular, the > dpkg maintainer does not support merged-/usr in dpkg (w

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hello Helmut, On Thu 24 Mar 2022 at 02:49pm +01, Helmut Grohne wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 09:12:14AM +0100, Ansgar wrote: >> Maybe it should be changed into a warning that non-merged-/usr systems >> will not be supported in the future. The `dpkg-fsys-usrunmess` program >> should pr

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 15:06 +0100, Ansgar wrote: > On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 14:49 +0100, Helmut Grohne wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 09:12:14AM +0100, Ansgar wrote: > > > Maybe it should be changed into a warning that non-merged-/usr > > > systems > > > will not be supported in the future.  The `

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 14:49 +0100, Helmut Grohne wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 09:12:14AM +0100, Ansgar wrote: > > Maybe it should be changed into a warning that non-merged-/usr > > systems > > will not be supported in the future.  The `dpkg-fsys-usrunmess` > > program > > should probably also i

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hi, On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 09:12:14AM +0100, Ansgar wrote: > Maybe it should be changed into a warning that non-merged-/usr systems > will not be supported in the future. The `dpkg-fsys-usrunmess` program > should probably also include a warning that it will convert the system > into a state no

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On Tue, 2022-03-15 at 15:14 -0700, Josh Triplett wrote: > It would appear that the situation has deteriorated further. dpkg > 1.21.2 > now issues a warning on all merged-usr systems: > > Setting up dpkg (1.21.2) ... > dpkg: warning: System unsupported due to merged-usr-via-aliased-dirs. > dpkg: wa

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hello, On Wed 16 Mar 2022 at 08:55am -07, Russ Allbery wrote: > Sean Whitton writes: > >> Thanks for the pointer. It's only in the postinst, it seems. So this >> is only going to get emitted once per system and only on upgraded >> systems. > > I think the concern is less about the noise and mo

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Sean Whitton writes: > Thanks for the pointer. It's only in the postinst, it seems. So this > is only going to get emitted once per system and only on upgraded > systems. I think the concern is less about the noise and more about the fact that this will be perceived by users as an official dec

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hello, On Wed 16 Mar 2022 at 12:39am -07, Josh Triplett wrote: > On March 15, 2022 11:38:44 PM PDT, Sean Whitton > wrote: >>Hello Josh, >> >>On Tue 15 Mar 2022 at 03:14pm -07, Josh Triplett wrote: >> >>> It would appear that the situation has deteriorated further. dpkg 1.21.2 >>> now issues a w

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

On March 15, 2022 11:38:44 PM PDT, Sean Whitton wrote: >Hello Josh, > >On Tue 15 Mar 2022 at 03:14pm -07, Josh Triplett wrote: > >> It would appear that the situation has deteriorated further. dpkg 1.21.2 >> now issues a warning on all merged-usr systems: >> >> Setting up dpkg (1.21.2) ... >> dpk

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

Hello Josh, On Tue 15 Mar 2022 at 03:14pm -07, Josh Triplett wrote: > It would appear that the situation has deteriorated further. dpkg 1.21.2 > now issues a warning on all merged-usr systems: > > Setting up dpkg (1.21.2) ... > dpkg: warning: System unsupported due to merged-usr-via-aliased-dirs.

Bug#994388: dpkg currently warning about merged-usr systems

It would appear that the situation has deteriorated further. dpkg 1.21.2 now issues a warning on all merged-usr systems: Setting up dpkg (1.21.2) ... dpkg: warning: System unsupported due to merged-usr-via-aliased-dirs. dpkg: warning: See .