Funny thing, the people who are undermining the Debian processes most loudly
are not even Debian Developers and thus they are not bound by them.
I am tired of this recurring flamewar, please stop it and let the tech-ctte do
their job. This is not a democracy any more, but the loudiestcracy.
O.
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 06:57:50AM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
The usefulness of supporting --as-needed isn't because of Ubuntu. It's
because switching --as-needed on across the board
I think it would be better send all our upstreams patches for their
build systems than to work around
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 07:57:50 Uoti Urpala wrote:
Scott Kitterman wrote:
Unless there's some kind of disclosure policy for everyone involved in the
any technical discussion around Debian,
CTTE decisions are quite distinct from any technical discussion.
I think it's silly to
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 07:57:50AM +0300, Uoti Urpala wrote:
I don't have anything against Colin Watson, and have nothing in
particular to complain about in his reply concerning the conflict of
interest. But I don't think there really is much he could even
theoretically say to fully remove
I would like to help in some capacity. Would working in a chrooted
environment or would one need a fully fledged os?
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Clint Byrum spam...@debian.org wrote:
Greetings earthlings,
As some of you may know, I've been doing the bulk of the package
maintenance on
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 07:57:50 +0300
Uoti Urpala uoti.urp...@pp1.inet.fi wrote:
I am no longer willing to assume that Steve Langasek would act in good
faith in evaluating init systems; he has posted false claims about
systemd too many times for me to believe they would all be honest
mistakes,
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 02:03:38PM +, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
Let’s GR it.
No. I think I've already argued in the past against this idea on -devel,
possibly even in reply to you, Thorsten. As I can't find my post back
then, let me reiterate.
GRs should be used for societal and policy[*]
On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:00:42PM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
On Do, 24 Okt 2013, Charles Plessy wrote:
at this point, I would like to point at a very important part of the
revised code of conduct that Wouter is proposing: Assume good faith.
On Do, 24 Okt 2013, Adam Borowski wrote:
Package: debian-policy
Version: 3.9.4
Severity: wishlist
Le Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 09:28:32AM +0200, Ondřej Surý a écrit :
Hi James,
since the authoritative-name-server idea was rejected by the list, I was
going to propose alternative:
security-aware-resolver
The definition from RFC4033:
* Uoti Urpala uoti.urp...@pp1.inet.fi [2013-10-25 18:27]:
Steve Langasek has been consistently posting dishonest FUD against
systemd. Maybe you could explain that as excessive zeal following from
valid technical considerations, but I'd consider that an excessively
charitable interpretation
On 25/10/13 at 12:16 -0400, Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
In response to the recent threads, I'd like to ask the tech-ctte to
please vote on and decide on the default init system for Debian.
I agree. I don't think that many substantial new arguments are going to
be brought by waiting more on this
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Felix Geyer fge...@debian.org
* Package name: ruby-mizuho
Version : 0.9.19
Upstream Author : Hongli Lai
* URL : https://github.com/FooBarWidget/mizuho
* License : Expat
Programming Lang: Ruby
Description : Mizuho
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Nicolas Dandrimont ol...@debian.org
* Package name: websocket-client
Version : 0.12.0
Upstream Author : liris liris...@gmail.com
* URL : https://github.com/liris/websocket-client
* License : LGPL-2.1+
Programming Lang:
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 12:19:53AM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
I have Gnucash installed and it depends on udisks, trust me I have
absolutely no need for udisks or polkit, so don't be so sure (I am not
saying that I am sure that he is not).
gnucash → libgnome2-0 → gvfs → gvfs-daemons → libgdu0
On 26/10/13 12:02, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 12:19:53AM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
I have Gnucash installed and it depends on udisks, trust me I have
absolutely no need for udisks or polkit, so don't be so sure (I am not
saying that I am sure that he is not).
gnucash
Zack wrote:
Note that the *possibility* of taking technical decisions by GRs is
important, as it provides a balance of powers within the project, but we
should always do everything in our power to avoid doing that.
The decisions about the init system (both which are the supported
ones? and which
[Please don't top post on this mailing list!]
On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 06:45:02PM +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
And just bashing GNOME DE for systemd and GNOME Classic
is not good enough point because probably the largest user base
of Debian user use GNOME.
That is because it is installed by
On Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:58:34 -0700
Nikolaus Rath nikol...@rath.org wrote:
Neil Williams codeh...@debian.org writes:
If someone comes up with good reasons to consider systemd on it's
own merit, I'm willing to consider it. With the current approach of
a fait-accompli systemd is part of the
Le samedi 26 octobre 2013 à 13:03 +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort a
écrit :
On 26/10/13 12:02, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 12:19:53AM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
I have Gnucash installed and it depends on udisks, trust me I have
absolutely no need for udisks or polkit, so
On 26 Oct 2013, at 13:00, Neil Williams codeh...@debian.org wrote:
Desktop
components cannot dictate how the rest of the system operates.
The gnome folks are free to do what they please. They don't answer to us and
your repeated assertions that they're crossing a line just shine a light
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 12:02:00AM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
I'm fed up with repeated attempts to force components on the rest of the
system, but that's mostly a fault of Gnome's upstream
There seems to be a trend emanating from packages involving RedHat devs.
I actually went to the
Quoting Emilio Pozuelo Monfort (2013-10-26 13:03:13)
On 26/10/13 12:02, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 12:19:53AM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
I have Gnucash installed and it depends on udisks, trust me I have
absolutely no need for udisks or polkit, so don't be so sure (I am
On 26/10/13 16:38, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
Quoting Emilio Pozuelo Monfort (2013-10-26 13:03:13)
On 26/10/13 12:02, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 12:19:53AM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
I have Gnucash installed and it depends on udisks, trust me I have
absolutely no need for
Clint - perhaps you and I can talk about this in Hong Kong?
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On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 11:44:48PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
Andy Cater wrote:
I think it would be a good idea to have the netinst have an
additional option to select desktop easily including the option for
command line only, no graphical desktop as default.
We already have that option
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 4:00 AM, Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org wrote:
On one hand, the belief that every DD is technically omniscient is the
reason why we still have so many pointlessly heated debates on this
mailing list. We would have way less of those if we let only people who
have a
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 07:09:45PM +0300, Uoti Urpala wrote:
Steve Langasek has been consistently posting dishonest FUD against
systemd. Maybe you could explain that as excessive zeal following from
valid technical considerations, but I'd consider that an excessively
charitable interpretation
On 26 Oct 2013, at 16:08, Andrew M.A. Cater amaca...@galactic.demon.co.uk
wrote:
That wouldbe my preference - a tasksel change for no desktop KDE GNOME
LXDE XFCE etc. for the netinst - default being no desktop - ideal for a
minimum
install.
I don't understand how that would work: I
On Sat, 2013-10-26 at 10:00 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
GRs should be used for societal and policy[*] decisions. Using GRs for
*technical* decision is stupid.
Is it for sure that this (and I guess it's mostly about upstart vs.
systemd is *only* a technical question?
- Apparently both are
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 04:37:55PM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
[...] non-Linux UNIX flavours - which I think Debian should support for
ethical and philosophical reasons.
Uh-oh.
--
WBR, wRAR
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
Hi,
Christoph Anton Mitterer cales...@scientia.net writes:
On Sat, 2013-10-26 at 10:00 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
GRs should be used for societal and policy[*] decisions. Using GRs for
*technical* decision is stupid.
Is it for sure that this (and I guess it's mostly about upstart vs.
Hi,
I'd find it very nice if we had, by default, DNSSEC resolving in Debian,
at least in the default configuration (whatever that means). By this,
I mean that any non-experienced user would just install (or upgrade to)
Jessie, start a web browser (Chormium, Iceweasel, etc.: take your
pick...),
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013, at 16:37, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
On Sat, 2013-10-26 at 10:00 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
GRs should be used for societal and policy[*] decisions. Using GRs for
*technical* decision is stupid.
Is it for sure that this (and I guess it's mostly about upstart
Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org writes:
If this means installing a recursive DNS resolver by default (unbound
pops to my mind, since it has the feature by default), I'd say be it,
though probably that is more of an open question, and an implementation
details. I personally wouldn't mind at all
On Sat, 2013-10-26 at 08:34 +0300, Uoti Urpala wrote:
Brian May wrote:
As much as I would like to see systemd as the default in Debian (and
have switched to it on my Desktops), I see two show stopper issues:
* Needs to work (somehow) with other applications (including not in
Of course, the gnome default makes adding gnome to the plot not
currently useful. One nice side benefit of at least temporarily
switching the default desktop to xfce would be that if a lot of people
wanted gnome, rather than just picking it as the default, we'd see that
reflected in the
What can be done to prevent rather than reacting to dependency hell all
the time. Some developers obviously get it and yet others seem to
pro-actively work in the other direction.
There was a time when it was said that this problem was finally heading
in the right direction.
There is an example
Off list.
Thanks!
Richard
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 04:41:00PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
On 26 Oct 2013, at 16:08, Andrew M.A. Cater
amaca...@galactic.demon.co.uk wrote:
That wouldbe my preference - a tasksel change for no desktop KDE GNOME
LXDE XFCE etc. for the netinst - default being no desktop -
On Wed, 2013-10-23 at 23:42 +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
On Wed, 2013-10-23 at 23:06 +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
And does this cause any problems actually? Does your system no longer
boot properly using sysvinit when systemd is installed?
Well, gdm3 does not start for a new
Session tracking includes suspending/hibernating, because logind has
a mechanism to let apps delay suspend, which is necessary for things
like closing the inherent race condition in lock the screensaver when
we suspend... oh, oops, it didn't get scheduled until after we
resumed, so the old
Steve Langasek has been consistently posting dishonest FUD against
systemd. Maybe you could explain that as excessive zeal following from
valid technical considerations, but I'd consider that an excessively
charitable interpretation for a member of a body that is supposed to
have public
I recommend one more option, nicknamed rotten tomatoes,
that basically says that this GR should never have been proposed.
And even more so not listened to for a few reasons.
Little has changed since the last discussion that I feel came to a
reasonable current standing with an overview
But that alone is not an argument against introducing new technologies.
One just has to be careful in what is done.
Not against new technologies in general but if you are talking about
something which you expect every Linux user to use (when actually they
can't in deep embedded etc.) then yes
My understanding is that the _kernel_ side wants to change the cgroup
API, and this means that at least in the long term current cgroup-using
applications will need to change in any case (possibly by using systemd
APIs instead). I'm not familiar with the specific case of lxc, but I
really
systemd doing more is quite relevant for this decision as far as I
understand the discussion: unlike upstart, systemd is not just an init
replacement, but offers additional services like journald or logind.
I don't mean to be rude but please read up on systemd and see the pros
of cons such as
If I'm not mistaking (please correct me), Fedora has the feature, and
it's been a long time they do. FreeBSD as well (they have unbound in the
default installer). OpenBSD also removed bind and switched to unbound
(or at least is planning on doing it, I'm not sure). Debian shouldn't be
left
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 11:07:36AM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
I think that there are two different questions:
1) Could you clarify which init system(s) must be supported by packages
involved during system startup (daemons, etc.) and low-level services?
[ the answer to that
Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes:
I don't think either of these are the right question. Even if we change
the default init system for jessie, because we *must* support backwards
compatibility with sysvinit for upgrades, there is no justification for
requiring packages to do anything
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013, at 18:58, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
I believe the reliability (DOS) issues that DNSSEC imposes coupled with
Please, not this again. If you say DNSSEC DOS issue, you must state all
the other issues that DNS has.
the low level of adoption
It's certainly more adopted than IPv6
Hi Russ,
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013, at 18:20, Russ Allbery wrote:
Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org writes:
If this means installing a recursive DNS resolver by default (unbound
pops to my mind, since it has the feature by default), I'd say be it,
though probably that is more of an open
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 10:46:38AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes:
I don't think either of these are the right question. Even if we change
the default init system for jessie, because we *must* support backwards
compatibility with sysvinit for upgrades,
On 10/26/2013 10:37 PM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
- Against systemd speaks that it's uncertain on whether there will be a
solution in the end for the non-Linux UNIX flavours - which I think
Debian should support for ethical and philosophical reasons.
Admittedly I have no idea how the
On Oct 26, Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote:
I'd find it very nice if we had, by default, DNSSEC resolving in Debian,
at least in the default configuration (whatever that means). By this,
I agree with the general principle, but I do not think that a recursive
resolver should be installed
Hi,
On Mittwoch, 23. Oktober 2013, Stewart Smith wrote:
Jenkins can have slaves on remote hosts, via SSH. It runs a small java
app there, so as long as the arch has a JVM then you're pretty right.
that JVM is not even needed, just schedule jobs via ssh and be done.
cheers,
Holger
On Sat, 2013-10-26 at 00:00 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
Pros:
* CD#1 will work again without size worries
* Smaller, simpler desktop
* Works well/better on all supported kernels (?)
* Does not depend on replacing init
* Users can pick and choose components and drop
On Oct 26, Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com wrote:
This really pinpoints the whole problem: What happened to the Unix
philosophy, with freedom of choice?
We killed it for good in 2008:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html
--
ciao,
Marco
On Oct 26, Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote:
If neither Upstart or Systemd works for these non-Linux ports, then
there's OpenRC. Which is why I worked on it (and I did this, mainly
because of ethical and philosophical reasons as you put it). It
wouldn't hurt to have more help on it...
Hi there!
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 08:08:53 -0700, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 11:44:48PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
Yes, it can. It should contain enough of the packages needed to be
able to support all 4 of the recognised DEs. However, at current rates
it won't take long
* Simon McVittie:
Session tracking includes suspending/hibernating, because logind has
a mechanism to let apps delay suspend, which is necessary for things
like closing the inherent race condition in lock the screensaver when
we suspend... oh, oops, it didn't get scheduled until after we
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Jérémy Lal kapo...@melix.org
* Package name: node-raw-body
Version : 0.0.3
Upstream Author : Jonathan Ong m...@jongleberry.com
* URL : https://github.com/stream-utils/raw-body
* License : Expat
Programming Lang:
Hi,
(I was not able to find the debian-ports list on lists.debian.org (so I
subscribed via email) did I just miss it?)
Quoting Steven Chamberlain (2013-10-23 22:04:59)
I had a play with the 'botch' tool (see description[1]) for determining build
order when bootstrapping an architecture.
botch
Johannes Schauer j.scha...@email.de (2013-10-26):
(I was not able to find the debian-ports list on lists.debian.org (so I
subscribed via email) did I just miss it?)
Dead list: http://lists.debian.org/debian-ports/
AFAICT it's now an alias for all debian-$port lists.
Mraw,
KiBi.
On 25/10/13 16:28, Russ Allbery wrote:
Fully supporting an init system means, among other things, writing or
generating native configuration files for that init system so that we can
take full (or at least fuller) advantage of its capabilities. We're
currently not doing that for anything
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Jérémy Lal kapo...@melix.org
* Package name: node-fresh
Version : 0.2.0
Upstream Author : TJ Holowaychuk t...@vision-media.ca
* URL : https://github.com/visionmedia/node-fresh
* License : Expat
Programming Lang:
On 26/10/13 21:23, Florian Weimer wrote:
Session tracking includes suspending/hibernating, because logind has
a mechanism to let apps delay suspend, which is necessary for things
like closing the inherent race condition in lock the screensaver when
we suspend... oh, oops, it didn't get
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Jérémy Lal kapo...@melix.org
* Package name: node-range-parser
Version : 0.0.4
Upstream Author : TJ Holowaychuk t...@vision-media.ca
* URL : https://github.com/visionmedia/node-range-parser
* License : Expat
Programming
Johannes Schauer wrote:
Until these two issues are fixed we will not be able to get an algorithmic
answer to the question of what constitutes the minimum required set of
packages.
There is also the complication of what I will call non-key self
building compilers. fpc is an example
These
On Oct 26, Luca Capello l...@pca.it wrote:
A small note: does anyone consider that there are still people on
not-so-fast Internet connections?
Yes: unless they need to install multiple computers (unusual, I think)
and do not know how to share the downloaded packages among them, then
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 11:02:13PM +0100, Simon McVittie wrote:
# systemd units on my laptop that are generated internally by systemd
# when it reads a sysvinit script (or LSB init script as it
# calls them)
% systemctl list-units | grep LSB | wc -l
That's only currently loaded units, i.e.
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 10:45:55 Charles Plessy wrote:
Conflict of interest is not a judgement on a person. It is a judgement
about a situation, and a recommendation on how systematically react,
without making exceptions.
Le Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:31:32PM -0400, Scott Kitterman
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Colin Watson wrote:
Linking in the correct order is not a workaround; it's being correct.
I wasn't talking about link-order stuff but about dependency
inflation; binaries linking against libraries that aren't used by the
binaries linking against them. IIRC this
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
epdfview depends on libqt
epdfview has been removed from Debian but it never depended on Qt, always GTK+:
http://bugs.debian.org/710550
http://packages.debian.org/source/stable/epdfview
evince pulls in the whole of QT adding ages to the
Paul Wise p...@debian.org writes:
I wasn't talking about link-order stuff but about dependency inflation;
binaries linking against libraries that aren't used by the binaries
linking against them. IIRC this is the purpose of --as-needed and what
it works around.
To clarify further, I think
Neil Williams codeh...@debian.org writes:
Please reconsider this. If I wrote a little GUI calculator and made it
depend on e.g. upstart, would that also make upstart unsuitable as a
default init system because of the resulting insane top-down
dependency?
Yes.
Aeh, are you sure? I think you
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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 14:29:48 +0200
Source: node-topcube
Binary: node-topcube
Architecture: source amd64
Version: 0.2.0+ds1-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Debian Javascript Maintainers
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Hash: SHA256
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 14:58:35 +0200
Source: system-config-printer
Binary: system-config-printer python-cupshelpers system-config-printer-udev
Architecture: source all amd64
Version: 1.4.3-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
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Hash: SHA256
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 13:35:29 +
Source: mpi-defaults
Binary: mpi-default-dev mpi-default-bin
Architecture: source amd64
Version: 1.0.2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Debian Science Team
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Hash: SHA1
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 14:43:08 +0200
Source: ufsutils
Binary: ufsutils ufsutils-udeb
Architecture: source kfreebsd-amd64
Version: 8.2-4
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: GNU/kFreeBSD Maintainers debian-...@lists.debian.org
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Hash: SHA1
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 16:09:29 +0200
Source: freebsd-glue
Binary: freebsd-glue
Architecture: source kfreebsd-amd64
Version: 0.1.12
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: GNU/kFreeBSD Maintainers debian-...@lists.debian.org
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Hash: SHA1
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 16:48:53 +0200
Source: gcr
Binary: gcr libgck-1-dev libgck-1-doc libgck-1-0 gir1.2-gck-1 libgcr-3-dev
libgcr-3-doc libgcr-3-1 libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgcr-3-common
gir1.2-gcr-3
Architecture: source all
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Hash: SHA1
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 16:12:19 +0200
Source: gnome-session
Binary: gnome-session gnome-session-bin gnome-session-common
Architecture: source all amd64
Version: 3.8.4-3
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian GNOME
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Hash: SHA256
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 22:19:01 +1100
Source: goffice
Binary: libgoffice-0.10-dev libgoffice-dbg libgoffice-0.10-10
libgoffice-0.10-10-common gir1.2-goffice-0.10 libgoffice-0.10-doc
Architecture: source amd64 all
Version: 0.10.8-1
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Hash: SHA256
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 16:51:13 +0200
Source: passportjs
Binary: node-passport
Architecture: source all
Version: 0.1.17-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Debian Javascript Maintainers
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Hash: SHA1
Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 15:09:56 +0200
Source: zsh
Binary: zsh zsh-common zsh-doc zsh-static zsh-dev zsh-dbg zsh-beta zsh-beta-doc
Architecture: source all amd64
Version: 5.0.2-6
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Debian Zsh
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