On Wed, 2008-02-27 at 10:20 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> You don’t know Jidanni, do you?
It doesn't matter if I do or not. Someone who is trying to contribute
shouldn't be told to piss off, or ridiculed on -devel. Doing that will
drive away not only that contributor, but any potential contribu
DN> don't have the time (or often the ability) to go back and
DN> reproduce the hundreds of bugs
Yes. Never mind the old bugs then. Just try to reproduce new bugs as
they come in, before they become old bugs.
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On Tue, 26 Feb 2008, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> I think that such a field would be meaningful only to sort upon it,
> and go looking for sorting of multiple valued fields seems to be
> looking for trouble to me.
Since tags don't sort, they segregate, you just choose based on the
first one that ma
On Tue, 2008-02-26 at 19:21 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> While bug reports are certainly important input, lame and stupid bug
> reports are not.
What is lame and stupid to us may not be lame and stupid to the average
user. Just because you find no value in a particular report (or set of
repor
Le mardi 26 février 2008 à 18:56 +0100, Marc Haber a écrit :
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:20:37 +0100, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >Indeed, but jidanni is not a contributor.
>
> He contributes a lot of Bug Reports which is important input.
While bug reports are certainly important
* Stefano Zacchiroli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-02-26 12:00:25 +0100]:
> Yes, it would be less flexible, but what meaning has a priority field
> with multiple values? I think that such a field would be meaningful only
> to sort upon it, and go looking for sorting of multiple valued fields
> seems t
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:20:37 +0100, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Le vendredi 22 février 2008 à 02:10 +0900, Paul Wise a écrit :
>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > OTOH, maybe you're just too incompetent for that.
>>
>> Insultin
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:58:06 +0100, "Bernhard R. Link"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>While jidanni's bugs are often hard to read and some might be plain
>stupid, I got many valuables bugs about hard to spot bugs or broken
>documentation. I think in the large picture he did more to improve
>Debian tha
Le mardi 26 février 2008 à 13:10 +, Jon Dowland a écrit :
> If you are unable to manage with the quantity
> of bugs coming in, that's because *more people are needed*,
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/funny-pictures-captain-obvious-cat.jpg
--
.''`.
: :' : We are de
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 04:19:14PM +0100, Rene Engelhard
wrote:
> If you give me some time and a co-maintainer at hand...
>
> I am barely keeping up with *new* bugreports and updating
> the packages, keeping them buildable, backporting fixes
> from upstream etc.
You are demonstrating another fair
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 06:02:59AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> For many users of other bug tracking systems such as bugzilla, the
> meaning of priority vs severity is totally unclear. I don't think that
> it would be a good idea to impose such a thing to all packages by
> default.
Well, you don
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 11:58:49AM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> It almost sounds like you want a user setable severity-like field.
> That could be implemented, but the problem is that it's far less
> flexible than usertags because it would only have a single value.
(Note that I did not ask for th
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Theodore Tso wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 02:15:10PM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > Note that also doesn't indicate how many were actually fixed. We have
> > nothing that look like bugzilla's NOTABUG or INVALID.
>
> It would be nice if we had this, actually, and it wouldn't
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 02:15:10PM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
> Note that also doesn't indicate how many were actually fixed. We have
> nothing that look like bugzilla's NOTABUG or INVALID.
It would be nice if we had this, actually, and it wouldn't be hard,
right? Just define a convention for a ne
On 24/02/08 at 20:41 +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 01:03:01PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> > If there are sets of usertags which are in common use by a reasonable
> > number of diverse packages, and are something that would normally be
> > put on the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 01:03:01PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> > If there are sets of usertags which are in common use by a reasonable
> > number of diverse packages, and are something that would normally be
> > put on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] user (t
On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 01:03:01PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> If there are sets of usertags which are in common use by a reasonable
> number of diverse packages, and are something that would normally be
> put on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] user (that is to say, make them
> visible by default) then fil
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 05:19:50PM +0100, Roland Mas wrote:
> > Now, if I could run an 'apt-get source -t unstable foo' and create
> > my patch against the resulting source package, and be sure that the
> > maintainer won't reject it on the grounds of the patch not being
> > against the head (or la
John Goerzen writes ("Re: the new style "mass tirage" of bugs"):
> Here's the thing. If bugs I submit actually get looked at by a human, and
> humans are fixing a reasonable percentage of bugs submitted, I don't mind
> testing things out on new versions
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:31:32PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> Here are some things that occur to me quickly:
I'll be just pointing to existing tools I'm aware of that are related to
your points. People probably already know all of them, but since I'm a
bit surprised to not having them mentioned
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008, David Nusinow wrote:
> If those who make heavy use of usertags could get together and form
> some sort of consensus standard so that outsiders to the team could
> find out common information without having to hunt down the team's
> specific documentation, it'd help enormously.
On la, 2008-02-23 at 09:08 -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 06:53:15PM +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> > What might work quite well, however, is to have "bug janitors" (a la
> > kernel janitors) who look at new bugs that have received no attention
> > for, say, two weeks. If a b
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 06:53:15PM +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> What might work quite well, however, is to have "bug janitors" (a la
> kernel janitors) who look at new bugs that have received no attention
> for, say, two weeks. If a bug gets reported against a package, and the
> package maintaine
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:37:37PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> David Nusinow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > This is something that's been bugging me for a while now. As our
> > software packages get larger and larger, we need more people to take
> > them on. To do this, we need more people wil
On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 06:50:00AM +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Be sure that somebody looks at new bugs.
> As days pass, the test conditions in the report e.g., URLs, deteriorate.
> As weeks pass, the user may have removed the package for another.
> As months pass, the user may no longer be wo
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:51:42AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le jeudi 21 février 2008 à 23:31 -0600, John Goerzen a écrit :
> > 5) A way of sorting bugs by "hack on this first". Our priorities are not
> > necessarily this way. For instance, we may have a wishlist bug to package
> > the ne
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:19:14PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:31:32PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
>
> > Excellent points made by both of you.
>
> > Here are some things that occur to me quickly:
>
> > 1) Large projects using $DVCS and making it easy for people that
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 05:19:50PM +0100, Roland Mas wrote:
> Roberto C. Sánchez, 2008-02-22 08:33:17 -0500 :
>
> [...]
>
> > Now, if I could run an 'apt-get source -t unstable foo' and create
> > my patch against the resulting source package, and be sure that the
> > maintainer won't reject it o
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Be sure that somebody looks at new bugs.
The fundamental problem here that people are trying to express is that,
given our absence of paid staff who are willing to do anything they're
assigned to do, it is impossible to "be sure" that anyone in Debian does
any specific
Be sure that somebody looks at new bugs.
As days pass, the test conditions in the report e.g., URLs, deteriorate.
As weeks pass, the user may have removed the package for another.
As months pass, the user may no longer be working on related projects.
As years pass, the user himself might have passe
Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> What might work quite well, however, is to have "bug janitors" (a la
> kernel janitors) who look at new bugs that have received no attention
> for, say, two weeks. If a bug gets reported against a package, and the
> package maintainer doesn't react to i
[...]
>
> What might work quite well, however, is to have "bug janitors" (a la
> kernel janitors) who look at new bugs that have received no attention
> for, say, two weeks. If a bug gets reported against a package, and the
> package maintainer doesn't react to it, then the janitors can look at
>
On 22/02/2008, Michael Tautschnig wrote:
> Do you think that there is a chance we find a group of people who
> really like mentoring/training others? If so, we could maybe set up
> kind of a bug-frontdesk taking over _all_ new bug reports for a
> moment and checking them for a the bit of informatio
On pe, 2008-02-22 at 07:48 +0100, Michael Tautschnig wrote:
> Do you think that there is a chance we find a group of people who really like
> mentoring/training others? If so, we could maybe set up kind of a
> bug-frontdesk
> taking over _all_ new bug reports for a moment and checking them for a t
On to, 2008-02-21 at 22:34 +0100, Michael Biebl wrote:
> But the same it true the other way around. Imho it's also not ok to
> insult DDs publically in the way jidanni did. We are all volunteers
> after all and ranting on a public mailing list doesn't help to improve
> the motivation (and doesn't m
Roberto C. Sánchez, 2008-02-22 08:33:17 -0500 :
[...]
> Now, if I could run an 'apt-get source -t unstable foo' and create
> my patch against the resulting source package, and be sure that the
> maintainer won't reject it on the grounds of the patch not being
> against the head (or latest, or wha
Le vendredi 22 février 2008 à 08:33 -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez a écrit :
> Now, if I could run an 'apt-get source -t unstable foo' and create my
> patch against the resulting source package, and be sure that the
> maintainer won't reject it on the grounds of the patch not being against
> the head (o
On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 04:53:20PM -0600, John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was
heard to say:
> On Wed February 20 2008 3:43:18 pm Ben Finney wrote:
> > Who other than the bug reporter would you suggest should try
> > reproducing the bug?
> >
> > Suggesting "put that effort into fixing the bugs" is
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008, David Nusinow wrote:
> > We could deal with this problem if we were better at training and
> > recruiting people to work on such things. We've been lucky in the
> > XSF lately in getting enough hands to get the work done, but I don't
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:51:42AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le jeudi 21 février 2008 à 23:31 -0600, John Goerzen a écrit :
>
> > 1) Large projects using $DVCS and making it easy for people that aren't
> > familiar with $DVCS to learn how to participate in that project.
>
> How is this re
On Thu 21 Feb 2008, Michael Tautschnig wrote:
>
> But jidanni did not actually insult anyone, but just made a statement on the
> current situation (possibly also expression his personal frustration). Our
By his own admission he will go ahead and post duplicate bug reports,
because he doesn't have
Le jeudi 21 février 2008 à 23:31 -0600, John Goerzen a écrit :
> On Thursday 21 February 2008 8:22:49 pm Don Armstrong wrote:
> > I think it's going to be in our long term interest to identify some
> > more of these packages that could use help and figure out what changes
> > (if any) need to be ma
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:31:32PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> Excellent points made by both of you.
> Here are some things that occur to me quickly:
> 1) Large projects using $DVCS and making it easy for people that aren't
> familiar with $DVCS to learn how to participate in that project. He
Le Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:54:09PM +0100, Michael Tautschnig a écrit :
> What about the following (happy flaming...): Let's just pick
> openoffice.org. Rene needs help. It has 340 open bugs. We're
> somewhere around 1000 DDs. Makes 3 developers per bug. Let's just
> randomly form teams of 3 from
[...]
> Some people really like mentoring and training others and find that
> immediately rewarding. Those people are wonderful and deserve all the
> praise we can give them. For the rest of us, I think it's often a lot
> to expect of people. That sort of training is in many respects
>
David Nusinow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> This is something that's been bugging me for a while now. As our
> software packages get larger and larger, we need more people to take
> them on. To do this, we need more people willing to work with such large
> and difficult codebases. Unfortunately, t
[ subject changed ]
On Thursday 21 February 2008 8:22:49 pm Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008, David Nusinow wrote:
> > We could deal with this problem if we were better at training and
> > recruiting people to work on such things. We've been lucky in the
> > XSF lately in getting enough
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:20 AM, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Le vendredi 22 février 2008 à 02:10 +0900, Paul Wise a écrit :
>
> > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > OTOH, maybe you're just too incompetent for that.
> >
> > I
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008, David Nusinow wrote:
> We could deal with this problem if we were better at training and
> recruiting people to work on such things. We've been lucky in the
> XSF lately in getting enough hands to get the work done, but I don't
> think there's any clear forumla from our experie
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:20:42AM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> Does it reflect badly on you? Probably not, since you're the only person
> maintaining OOo and you've asked for help. But I think it unquestionably
> reflects poorly on Debian. Though of course we are a volunteer project, so
> it
> Paul Wise wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> OTOH, maybe you're just too incompetent for that.
> >
> > Insulting contributors really isn't helpful Josselin.
> >
>
> But the same it true the other way around. Imho it's also not ok
Paul Wise wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> OTOH, maybe you're just too incompetent for that.
>
> Insulting contributors really isn't helpful Josselin.
>
But the same it true the other way around. Imho it's also not ok to
insult DDs publ
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 06:52:02PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> Perhaps not, but it does not matter. I have now idea about his
> status. But I do know that your message is read by a lot more than
> jidanni, and those readers probably do not know any more about his
> status as a contributor
[Josselin Mouette]
>> Insulting contributors really isn't helpful Josselin.
>
> Indeed, but jidanni is not a contributor.
Perhaps not, but it does not matter. I have now idea about his
status. But I do know that your message is read by a lot more than
jidanni, and those readers probably do not k
Le vendredi 22 février 2008 à 02:10 +0900, Paul Wise a écrit :
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > OTOH, maybe you're just too incompetent for that.
>
> Insulting contributors really isn't helpful Josselin.
Indeed, but jidanni is not a contributo
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OTOH, maybe you're just too incompetent for that.
Insulting contributors really isn't helpful Josselin.
--
bye,
pabs
http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
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Le jeudi 21 février 2008 à 05:11 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
> With the new style of "mass tirage" of bugs,
>
> The user submits a bug;
> while (sleep 1 year) {
> He gets a message asking him to verify if the bug still exists;
> He perhaps especially reinstalls the package that he long
Hi,
John Goerzen wrote:
> > > blackholes. I submit a bug, and never hear anything from Debian
> > > maintainers
> > > except for periodic triage stuff when a new upstream comes out.
> >
> > Sorry, that's not fair at all.
>
> The two bugs I see in src:openoffice.org with my name on them are:
>
On Thu February 21 2008 9:19:14 am Rene Engelhard wrote:
> Hi,
>
> John Goerzen wrote:
> > I have learned that certain well-known packages (OpenOffice, say) are
> > bug
>
> OpenOffice isn't in Debian. If you mean OpenOffice.org, I feel obliged to
> answer this now, because you complely underestimat
Hi again,
> See http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=419523 for a RFH open >
> for looong.
Oh, and note that I *did* reply to the offers there, but that didn't turn out
(except Lior and and Tim Richardson with their bug triage of *OLD* bugs which I
am very thankful for)
Regards,
Hi all,
On Do, 21 Feb 2008, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> I am barely keeping up with *new* bugreports and updating the packages,
> keeping them buildable, backporting fixes from upstream etc.
We from the Debian TeX Team have a very similar problem. There are about
300 bugs taken over from teTeX time
Hi,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> With the new style of "mass tirage" of bugs,
triage.
> The user submits a bug;
> while (sleep 1 year) {
> He gets a message asking him to verify if the bug still exists;
> He perhaps especially reinstalls the package that he long ago stopped
> using &&
> He v
Hi,
John Goerzen wrote:
> I have learned that certain well-known packages (OpenOffice, say) are bug
OpenOffice isn't in Debian. If you mean OpenOffice.org, I feel obliged to
answer this now, because you complely underestimate a) how many people maintain
OOo (hint: 1) and b) how many time even k
On Thu February 21 2008 12:51:42 am Ben Finney wrote:
> "Paul Wise" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I'm very bad at doing this myself, but it is equally important for bug
> > submitters to triage their own bugs, especially if they have lots or
> > many old ones.
>
> It's important for bug submitter
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > Some bugs are of dubious quality, but one must accept that in the end, it's
> > still impressive. :)
>
> Note that also doesn't indicate how many were actually fixed. We have
> nothing that look like bugzilla's NOTABUG or INVALID.
Indeed. One could chec
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 02:09:11PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > Yeah, it must be really hard to be an heavy bug filer.
> >
> > * 1552 Outstanding
> > * 136 Forwarded
> > * 10 Pending Upload
> > * 1 Fixed in NMU
> >
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008, Mike Hommey wrote:
> Yeah, it must be really hard to be an heavy bug filer.
>
> * 1552 Outstanding
> * 136 Forwarded
> * 10 Pending Upload
> * 1 Fixed in NMU
> * 69 Resolved
Note that if you look at his archived bugs you have to add:
* 2010 Resolved
* Christian Perrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [080221 08:36]:
> Or also sometimes refrain themselves of filing nitpicking bugs for
> corners cases which noone will ever meet. Or when doing thissend
> *patches*.
>
> Where resources are low, adding more noise to an already noisy pile of
> bugs is just
Quoting Paul Wise ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> I'm very bad at doing this myself, but it is equally important for bug
> submitters to triage their own bugs, especially if they have lots or
> many old ones. A ping, some extra info, anything get the bug closer to
> being fixed.
Or also sometimes refrain
"Paul Wise" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I'm very bad at doing this myself, but it is equally important for bug
> submitters to triage their own bugs, especially if they have lots or
> many old ones.
It's important for bug submitters to *confirm* their own bugs,
especially if newer versions of t
I'm very bad at doing this myself, but it is equally important for bug
submitters to triage their own bugs, especially if they have lots or
many old ones. A ping, some extra info, anything get the bug closer to
being fixed.
--
bye,
pabs
http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
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John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed February 20 2008 3:43:18 pm Ben Finney wrote:
> > What would you put in place of triage?
>
> I think that the point is that triage should happen at
On Wed February 20 2008 3:43:18 pm Ben Finney wrote:
> Who other than the bug reporter would you suggest should try
> reproducing the bug?
>
> Suggesting "put that effort into fixing the bugs" is presuming that
> the prospective bug fixer knows *which* bugs are worth the effort. If
> the bug report
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> With the new style of "mass tirage" of bugs,
The word is "triage"; it's a term from hospital work.
> The user submits a bug;
> while (sleep 1 year) {
> He gets a message asking him to verify if the bug still exists;
> He perhaps especially reinstalls the package t
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 05:11:43AM +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> With the new style of "mass tirage" of bugs,
>
> The user submits a bug;
> while (sleep 1 year) {
> He gets a message asking him to verify if the bug still exists;
> He perhaps especially reinstalls the package that he long a
With the new style of "mass tirage" of bugs,
The user submits a bug;
while (sleep 1 year) {
He gets a message asking him to verify if the bug still exists;
He perhaps especially reinstalls the package that he long ago stopped using &&
He verifies it || the bug is closed
}
Now disposing of t
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