On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 12:54:23PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
> > There is a chronic systemic harrassment in Debian, but I have not seen
> > women get more of it.
>
> I know I've said this some number of times already, but I'll say it again
> in just four lines so it's that much harder to miss.
>
>
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:48:13PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> The alternative is that there is nothing interesting here. It's not a
> very interesting alternative. Occam's razor says we go with it until
> we have a reason to do otherwise.
Translation: "LALALALALA! I'M NOT LISTENING!"
> I hyp
Ben Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The question to which Helen was initially responding was not "why should
> we change the environment?". It was "why are there so few women in
> debian?".
Fair enough.
> If there are grander reasons for changing the environment then that's
> wonderful, bu
> We should change
> the environment because it is bad, not because "it's bad to women".
The question to which Helen was initially responding was not "why should
we change the environment?". It was "why are there so few women in
debian?".
If there are grander reasons for changing the environmen
Ben Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The problem Helen refers to in the most part is not *overt* sexism. The
> problem is *subliminal/covert* sexism, where everyone is treated the
> same way but women in general (through social training, upbringing,
> whatever) are less well adapted to such t
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Federica
http://www.sarlanga.com.ar
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 04:28:49PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:10:45PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > There is a massive difference between "working assumption" and
> > "proven".
> >
> > "To use plausible arguments in place of proofs, and henceforth to
> > refer to
> There is a chronic systemic harrassment in Debian, but I have not seen
> women get more of it.
I know I've said this some number of times already, but I'll say it again
in just four lines so it's that much harder to miss.
The problem Helen refers to in the most part is not *overt* sexism. The
Ben Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 1) That debian contains bullying or aggressive elements. She is *not*
> inventing this, she did *not* come into the discussion with this as a
> stereotype that she's trying to fit debian into. It's quite clearly
> observable.
This part I agree about.
>
> I don't think she's flaky or mentally unstable. I think she
> approached a concrete group of people by assuming they would fit a
> stereotype she had in mind, and that's a bad thing to do.
Please. Her comments are centred around two premises:
1) That debian contains bullying or aggressive el
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> >You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of
>> > women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software
>> > coding, coding in ge
On 05 Mar 2004 12:01:34 -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Anthony Towns writes:
>> On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:25:59AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG
>> wrote:
>> > Anthony Towns writes:
>> > > So, Helen is kind enough to summarise her views on why she
>> > > doesn't participa
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:52:28 +1000, Anthony Towns said:
> On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 03:07:42PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> >> Such a wash of illogic from someone normally ground in logic
>> >> smacks of denial. [...]
>> > Play fair! [...]
>> Can't you read? [...] Listen to them, unless, of co
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I don't think she is guessing. Indeed, the men here have done
> exactly what she thought they would -- calling her a flake,
> mentally unstable, inexperieiced, and sexist.
See, this wasn't "the men". It was particular people. It was not a
g
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 12:03:31PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Quite. But you too are ignoring one detail: that behavioral
> > trait is expressed preferentially in one gender; perhaps due to
> > cultural indoctrination, perhaps due to
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:23:59AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > "We're a previously persecuted minority, dammit, treat us special, we
> > deserve the land you have worked hard for. even though we sit on our asses."
>
> New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and the United States all have some
>
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:58:03 +, Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 01:16:43PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
>> > On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> > > You have
On 05 Mar 2004 13:21:24 -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> David Nusinow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:58:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
>> > The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
>>
>> True, but then what would you suggest as an alternative
David Nusinow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:58:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
>
> True, but then what would you suggest as an alternative means of
> gathering data? Should we stick the users in a set of test tubes,
> compl
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:10:45PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> There is a massive difference between "working assumption" and
> "proven".
>
> "To use plausible arguments in place of proofs, and henceforth to
> refer to these arguments as proofs" was, I believe, originally
> referring to physic
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 04:02:26PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:54:05PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > Absence of evidence is not justification for inventing evidence. If
> > you can't prove something, that doesn't mean you should lower the
> > standards for proof, it
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:54:05PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> Absence of evidence is not justification for inventing evidence. If
> you can't prove something, that doesn't mean you should lower the
> standards for proof, it means that you can't prove it.
Just because you can't prove something
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:08:14PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:58:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
>
> True, but then what would you suggest as an alternative means of
> gathering data? Should we stick the users in a set of
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:53:45PM +0100, Krisztian Mark Szentes wrote:
> Am Friday 05 March 2004 19:31 schrieb Frank Küster:
> > Therefore I would be glad to hear whether any towns in Europe have yet
> > done the switch and chosen Debian for that.
> I do not know, isn't the Extramadura project ba
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Quite. But you too are ignoring one detail: that behavioral
> trait is expressed preferentially in one gender; perhaps due to
> cultural indoctrination, perhaps due to inherent biology.
I have no idea if this is true. Moreover, I don't think
Anthony Towns writes:
> On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:25:59AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Anthony Towns writes:
> > > So, Helen is kind enough to summarise her views on why she doesn't
> > > participate in the project as fully as she might, and she's called a
> > > flake, mentally unstab
Am Friday 05 March 2004 19:31 schrieb Frank Küster:
> Therefore I would be glad to hear whether any towns in Europe have yet
> done the switch and chosen Debian for that.
I do not know, isn't the Extramadura project based on Debian? (Guadalinux).
That's about 80.000 desktops IIRC.
> And for sure
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:58:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
True, but then what would you suggest as an alternative means of
gathering data? Should we stick the users in a set of test tubes,
complete with positive and negative controls? I'd rather tak
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 05:46:36PM +, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 05:43:09PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 05:37:19PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > On 2004-03-05 17:05:05 + Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>Last I heard, fre
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 01:16:43PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > > You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of
> > > women in male dominated
Hi,
(I'm posting to both debian-project and debian-consultants, because
consultants seems to be quite dead, and I don't even know if it would be
the right list. And I'm not subsribed to any of them - I hope the
Mail-Followup-To does the trick.)
A political party of which I'm a member of wants to
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of
> > women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding,
> > coding in general
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 05:43:09PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 05:37:19PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> > On 2004-03-05 17:05:05 + Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >>Last I heard, freenode does not respect any project decisions: the
> > >>channel manageme
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 05:37:19PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> On 2004-03-05 17:05:05 + Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >>Last I heard, freenode does not respect any project decisions: the
> >>channel
> >>management ends up with freenode staff quite easily.
> >Marginally accurat
On 2004-03-05 17:05:05 + Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Last I heard, freenode does not respect any project decisions: the
channel
management ends up with freenode staff quite easily.
Marginally accurate but very misleading. A project does not implicitly
"own" any channels whi
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 04:14:04PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> On 2004-03-05 15:42:40 + Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >You have to realise that "host on another network" is a euphemism for
> >"hostile takeover [by me/us] because I think I could run it better".
>
> asuffield is
On 2004-03-05 15:42:40 + Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
You have to realise that "host on another network" is a euphemism for
"hostile takeover [by me/us] because I think I could run it better".
asuffield is the lead coder for freenode.
Last I heard, freenode does not respect
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:26:32AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:15:25 -0500, Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's
> >> debian as a Project resource.
>
> Fair enough. Do you think that
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of
> women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding,
> coding in general, and CS overall?
Sunspots. It's at least as convincing.
--
.''`.
On 2004-03-05 14:21:08 + Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Also, it is easy for those not in the target group to dismiss
the reports experiences that members of the target groups are having,
but not, in my eyes, with much credibility.
Similarly, when people question the
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:34:11 +1100, Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> insightful, except for one important detail.
> the situation does not discriminate against women, in particular, it
> discriminates against a particular personality trait - meekness.
> meekness is found in both men and
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Super low-priice for all softwares - All you will receive is the actual software and your own unique regis
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:15:25 -0500, Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's
>> debian as a Project resource.
Fair enough. Do you think that hosting it on any other irc
network is likely to change matters, though?
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:25:49 +, Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:37:43AM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:07:06AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
>> > On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:15AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> > > http://ww
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:49:44PM +0100, Dalibor Topic wrote:
> Stefan Gybas wrote:
> >Main discussions with Java developers
> >
> >Besides the issue of better collaboration we also had a lot of technical
> >discussions:
> >
> >- The proposed new Debian Java Policy by Jan Schulz
>
> That's got ti
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:37:43AM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:07:06AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:15AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > > http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41
> >
> > Hey,
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:07:06AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:15AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41
>
> Hey, I remember that incident, and the author of the HOWTO has blown
> it out
One time on Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 09:50:06PM -0500 this person named David
Nusinow wrote:
> You can plug your ears and shout "It's not real!" all you want, but that
> doesn't make it so.
Exactly.
BTW, for those of you who don't already know, I'm the helix from IRC. I
want to say a few things and
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 03:07:42PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >> Such a wash of illogic from someone normally ground in logic smacks
> >> of denial. [...]
> > Play fair! [...]
> Can't you read? [...] Listen to them, unless, of
> course, you want to exercise the ostrich defence.
> Just the
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