Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-14 Thread Andrey Rahmatullin
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 10:32:57AM -0700, Miles Fidelman wrote: > > > > Also, I don't want to move lots of software to contrib. I would much > > > > rather have it fixed by removing the support for the non-free services, > > > > or by having plugin systems that allow only the non-free-interfacing

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-14 Thread Miles Fidelman
On 8/14/17 5:42 AM, Marc Haber wrote: On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 05:29:20PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: "Dr. Bas Wijnen" writes: Also, I don't want to move lots of software to contrib. I would much rather have it fixed by removing the support for the non-free services, or by

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-14 Thread Marc Haber
On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 05:29:20PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > "Dr. Bas Wijnen" writes: > > Also, I don't want to move lots of software to contrib. I would much > > rather have it fixed by removing the support for the non-free services, > > or by having plugin systems that

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-14 Thread Andrey Rahmatullin
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 01:07:32PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: > > you are running this on a computer with non-free software (*). Should > > everything > > now be in contrib? > > No, I explained before that I think we should be pragmatic. We already were, before this discussion. -- WBR,

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-14 Thread Dr. Bas Wijnen
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 08:51:06AM -0400, Holger Levsen wrote: > you are running this on a computer with non-free software (*). Should > everything > now be in contrib? No, I explained before that I think we should be pragmatic. > Or can we maybe rather bury this thread? I do not see how "you

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-14 Thread Holger Levsen
Hi, you are running this on a computer with non-free software (*). Should everything now be in contrib? Or can we maybe rather bury this thread? (*) all hardware includes non free software… at least all, which is assembled into a "computer". You surely find some hardware pieces with only free

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-14 Thread Dr. Bas Wijnen
On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 05:28:29PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Miles Fidelman writes: > > > Getting past all the obfuscatory count and counterpoint, there seem to > > be two clear questions on the table: > > > 1. Given a piece of FOSS client software, that has no

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-13 Thread Russ Allbery
Miles Fidelman writes: > Getting past all the obfuscatory count and counterpoint, there seem to > be two clear questions on the table: > 1. Given a piece of FOSS client software, that has no purpose other > than to interface with a proprietary back-end service (say

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-13 Thread Russ Allbery
"Dr. Bas Wijnen" writes: > Also, I don't want to move lots of software to contrib. I would much > rather have it fixed by removing the support for the non-free services, > or by having plugin systems that allow only the non-free-interfacing > part to be in contrib. I believe

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-13 Thread Miles Fidelman
On 8/13/17 1:05 PM, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: My purpose of this thread (which is a question asked elsewhere) is to find out if there is consensus about this issue. If there isn't, I don't want to bother everyone with a mass bug report. Which, as Russ pointed out, would be a pretty large

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-13 Thread Dr. Bas Wijnen
On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 12:07:51PM +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote: > ❦ 12 août 2017 09:12 GMT, "Dr. Bas Wijnen"  : > > No, it doesn't. 2.2.1 says "None of the packages in the main archive area > > require software outside of that area to function." In other words, if > >

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Russ Allbery
Vincent Bernat writes: > Then, please file bugs against offending packages, severity > serious. Otherwise, all this discussion is useless. A starting point > could be golang-github-datadog-datadog-go and golang-google-api > packages. And please think about the significant

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
]] Christian Seiler > Hi, > > I don't have anything useful to add to your other comments, but: > > On 08/12/2017 02:11 PM, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > > ]] Christian Seiler > >>> [free CPU designs] > >>> (although I'm sure there are...) > >> > >> There are, take a look at RISC-V, for example.

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Christian Seiler
Hi, I don't have anything useful to add to your other comments, but: On 08/12/2017 02:11 PM, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > ]] Christian Seiler >>> [free CPU designs] >>> (although I'm sure there are...) >> >> There are, take a look at RISC-V, for example. [1] And for the >> requirement about not

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
]] Christian Seiler > > So that means I don't think all of Debian should be in non-free because > > there > > are no free cpu designs > > Ahem, nobody said anything about non-free here, we're talking about > contrib. That said: for all release archs of Debian there are > actually free

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Vincent Bernat
❦ 12 août 2017 09:12 GMT, "Dr. Bas Wijnen"  : >> And honestly, I don't have to do a thing. Nothing will change. Free >> software using "non-free services" will stay in main because they meet >> the proper requirements (policy 2.2.1). > > No, it doesn't. 2.2.1 says "None of

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Christian Seiler
Hi, On 08/12/2017 11:12 AM, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: > On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 10:06:40AM +0200, Christian Seiler wrote: >> I don't think this is as black and white as you paint it: > > It's certainly not black and white, and as I wrote elsewhere, the line can > move. But there is a line and I

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Dr. Bas Wijnen
On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 09:55:17AM +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote: > ❦ 12 août 2017 07:37 GMT, "Dr. Bas Wijnen"  : > > Your argument seems to be: > > > > Debian cares about free software. > > Therefore, Debian does not enable contrib and non-free by default. > > Therefore, users

Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Vincent Bernat
❦ 12 août 2017 07:37 GMT, "Dr. Bas Wijnen"  : >> > That is a disservice to our users. While for many users this is true, >> > those >> > users will have contrib (and probably non-free) enabled in their >> > sources.list. >> > So moving the package to contrib doesn't change

Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

2017-08-12 Thread Dr. Bas Wijnen
On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 08:55:01AM +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote: > ❦ 12 août 2017 06:29 GMT, "Dr. Bas Wijnen"  : > > > That is a disservice to our users. While for many users this is true, those > > users will have contrib (and probably non-free) enabled in their > >