Hi,
After a long and ambivalent discussion during the last weeks the project
"Dunc Tank" (short DT from now on) has recently started. We consider
that to be a major change to the Debian project culture: For the first
time Debian Developers are paid for their work on Debian by a
institution so nea
Hi!
Thanks a lot for this mail. It clearly explains what I and others feel
about the Dunc-Tanc "experiment". I haven't signed it, but please
consider this mail as a signature.
Bye,
Aurelien Jarno, Debian Developer
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 07:46:00PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> After a
This is going to be a personal reply, containing my personal opinion
only.
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 07:46:00PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Especially since it is clear now that we
> currently can not keep the scheduled release date, even with DT paying
> our RMs.
Is that clear?
> - During
Thanks for the mail-in-depth
On 10/26/06, Joerg Jaspert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[ snip ]
Joey Schulze: [5] Debian is a failure
This is misrepresentation don't you think? Joey didn't say that Debian
is a failure. That's just the title of the blog.
[5] http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/log/?2
On 10/26/06, Marc Haber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If people need to be paid, I'd like them
(1) to be paid by the project
(2) to be paid by something friendly to the project
(3) to be paid by a competitor
I know of more DDs that (3) applies than of DDs that (2) applies. And
unfortunately,
Joerg Jaspert debian.org> writes:
> With this mail we would like to summarize our thoughts about the DT
> project and the idea behind it. We also want to raise some questions we
> still consider unanswered and open:
I don't mind you carrying on this discussion, but please keep it out
of debian-d
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:48:16PM +0200, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote:
> On 10/26/06, Marc Haber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >If people need to be paid, I'd like them
> > (1) to be paid by the project
> > (2) to be paid by something friendly to the project
> > (3) to be paid by a competitor
> >
Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> - During the discussion before the experiment it was said that the
> living costs of the release managers are to be paid. Additionally it
> was said that it is "providing a reasonable amount of money to cover
> living expenses" and later on, that this is "below the aver
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:37:43PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> This is going to be a personal reply, containing my personal opinion
> only.
>
> On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 07:46:00PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > Especially since it is clear now that we
> > currently can not keep the scheduled re
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 01:45:11PM -0500, Adam Majer wrote:
> Thus at $6000 and assuming my calculation is correct, this is 60% more
> than the average salary in the US hence not "below average" or just
> "living costs". Speaking naively (since the average doesn't follow the
> standard distribution
* Marc Haber:
> Please note that this is not a salary which can be relied on coming in
> month after months. Freelance people which high qualifications have to
> calculate differently. I am actually surprised that people on this
> list are not aware of these differences.
You make this sound as if
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 10:12:09PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Marc Haber:
> > Please note that this is not a salary which can be relied on coming in
> > month after months. Freelance people which high qualifications have to
> > calculate differently. I am actually surprised that people on thi
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 07:46:00PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> that to be a major change to the Debian project culture: For the first
> time Debian Developers are paid for their work on Debian by a
> institution so near to the project itself.
This is completely and blatantly false! The only th
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:48:16PM +0200, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote:
> On 10/26/06, Marc Haber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >If people need to be paid, I'd like them
> > (1) to be paid by the project
> > (2) to be paid by something friendly to the project
> > (3) to be paid by a competitor
> >
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:37:43PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> Just let me pick the NEW queue: Has it been stated publicly that
> ftpmaster is going to reduce work spent on NEW due to dunc tank? Have
> ftpmaster considered to accept offers to take over some of the work
> load they are not motivated
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:37:43PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> US$ 6000 is like 4.800 EUR. That's like a dayly rate of 220 EUR. Like
> a fourth of what a contractor of Andi's and Steve's expertise would
> cash in on the free market.
You're kidding, right? Others already pointed out that the origina
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 10:16:19PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> I, personally, do not, however, find that amount unreasonable for a
> one-month engagement as a contractor.
But then it should be described that way too.
Michael
--
Michael Meskes
Email: Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De, Michael at Meskes
On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 02:44:20PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:37:43PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> > Just let me pick the NEW queue: Has it been stated publicly that
> > ftpmaster is going to reduce work spent on NEW due to dunc tank? Have
> > ftpmaster considered to acc
Anthony Towns wrote:
> For the record, I haven't seen any such offers, and I've been looking
> for them since May or so. (Proviso: offers should be accompanied by
> some direct evidence that whoever's offering has the time and ability
> to actually do stuff)
If at least any NEW queue package infor
First I will state my personal position. I think the original intent
and idea of the DPL - to leverage available funds to assist the process
of finishing a stable release - is a great one. Money is a tool to be
used, there's no sense letting it lie around just gathering interest.
The fact that on
On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 02:44:20PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:37:43PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> > Just let me pick the NEW queue: Has it been stated publicly that
> > ftpmaster is going to reduce work spent on NEW due to dunc tank? Have
> > ftpmaster considered to acc
On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 09:40:24AM +0200, Thomas Viehmann wrote:
> If at least any NEW queue package information was accessible, people
> could take an interest. If there's a problem with allowing access to the
> new packages themselves, cool, but there used to be at least some
> information on mer
Hi,
I'd like to thank you for putting up this email which summarize
extremely well my feelings about what's happening, feelings I haven't
been able to elaborate on in an email, out of disgust, despair and
outrage.
I'd add that the harm done by this "experiment" is already so huge
that there's un
Drew Parsons writes ("Re: Position Statement to the Dunc-Tanc "experiment""):
> The first group, the minority, believes that any use of money to
> increase the time developers spend on Debian is always intrinsically a
> bad idea.
This an oft-repeated straw-man ch
On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 10:26:43AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> > For the record, I haven't seen any such offers, and I've been looking
> > for them since May or so.
> For the record, I haven't seen a request for help issued by ftpmaster,
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/06/msg00019.html
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 01:42:46PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote:
> This is completely and blatantly false! The only thing that's
> different this time is the prominence of the developers involved
> relative to the prominence of the institution, and the amount of
> publicity that has ensued. (And, un
Ian wrote:
> Drew Parsons writes ("Re: Position Statement to the Dunc-Tanc "experiment""):
> > The first group, the minority, believes that any use of money to
> > increase the time developers spend on Debian is always intrinsically a
> > bad
On Sat, Oct 28, 2006, Drew Parsons wrote:
> I appreciate that I have simplified the grey nuances for the sake of
> establishing my point about the results of the experiment, but please be
> advised it is in no way a straw-man characterisation [1].
>
> [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/20
On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 09:40:24AM +0200, Thomas Viehmann wrote:
> Anthony Towns wrote:
> > For the record, I haven't seen any such offers, and I've been looking
> > for them since May or so. (Proviso: offers should be accompanied by
> > some direct evidence that whoever's offering has the time and
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 07:46:00PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Signed by:
> Jörg Jaspert, ftp-master assistant, DAM, DebConf Organizer
> Alexander Schmehl, Debian Developer, press, event manager, DebConf Organizer
> Alexander Wirt, Debian Developer
> Daniel Priem, New Maintai
Theodore Tso wrote:
> Folks who are claiming that they are demotivated because two people
> have volunteered to give up a full month of their time to take on a
> job where they giving up something like 75% of their normal income ---
> and the problem is that they gave up only 75% instead of 100% --
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>night. Did I get demotivated because certain lucky folks earned
>bazillions and were able to buy mansions in Lake Tahoe and Chicago?
>No, because I know that life isn't fair, and that money wasn't why I
>got involved in Linux and Debian in the first place.
>
>Folks who a
2006/10/27, Marc Haber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:48:16PM +0200, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote:
Maybe not pay a DD to do Debian work, but pay a DD to work on the
competing product. If that DD holds a job in Debian that requires
special privileges, and that job is neglected with
Marc Haber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I, personally, do not, however, find that amount unreasonable for a
> one-month engagement as a contractor.
If anything, it's unreasonably *low*. That's a fourth of the fair market
wage for a contractor with those qualifications in the United States (and
On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 09:35:31PM -0300, calvesmit wrote:
> Marc Haber, there's no need for special privileges in Debian. Nobody
> is or does jobs better than others.
I was talking about technical privileges, which are of course needed.
Greetings
Marc
--
-
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 09:40:04AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 09:35:31PM -0300, calvesmit wrote:
> > Marc Haber, there's no need for special privileges in Debian. Nobody
> > is or does jobs better than others.
>
> I was talking about technical privileges, which are of cou
On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 09:35:31PM -0300, calvesmit wrote:
> My name is Carlos Alberto, I come from Brazil, I'm just a Debian
> user, not developer. I had used other linux distributions before until found
> Debian. When other distribuition companies begins to
> put money in first place, I choose
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 01:44:40PM -0300, Blu wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 09:35:31PM -0300, calvesmit wrote:
> > My name is Carlos Alberto, I come from Brazil, I'm just a Debian
> > user, not developer. I had used other linux distributions before until
> > found
> > Debian. When other distr
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 07:15:16PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 01:44:40PM -0300, Blu wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 09:35:31PM -0300, calvesmit wrote:
> > > My name is Carlos Alberto, I come from Brazil, I'm just a Debian
> > > user, not developer. I had used other linu
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 03:59:48PM -0300, Blu wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 07:15:16PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 01:44:40PM -0300, Blu wrote:
> > > On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 09:35:31PM -0300, calvesmit wrote:
> > > > My name is Carlos Alberto, I come from Brazil, I'm ju
On Fri, 03 Nov 2006, Blu wrote:
> Well, in http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_006 the winner is
> option 1 "Re-affirm DPL, wish success to unofficial Dunc Tank".
>
> That doesn't look very neutral to me considering that there was an option
> 2 "Re-affirm DPL, do not endorse nor support his other
Blu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Well, in http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_006 the winner is option 1
> "Re-affirm DPL, wish success to unofficial Dunc Tank".
> That doesn't look very neutral to me considering that there was an option
> 2 "Re-affirm DPL, do not endorse nor support his other
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 05:28:04PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Blu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Well, in http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_006 the winner is option 1
> > "Re-affirm DPL, wish success to unofficial Dunc Tank".
>
> > That doesn't look very neutral to me considering that the
Blu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Actually, I followed the thread(s) while the proposal(s) were being
> discussed. I whish I could convince myself of the contrary, but my
> opinion stands.
Okay. Just so long as you're aware that a lot of those voters, myself
included, were not using the GR to sa
All,
I'd like to sign the statement as well.
Hans-Georg Bork
- debian user since the early days of hamm -
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Hi all,
I'm posting this to d-d-a since it doesn't make sense to me to answer
questions in a different forum to where they've been raised. It's already
been pointed out [0] that this sort of discussion isn't appropriate for
-devel-announce, so I'll try to keep it brief. Followups to -project
[1],
Joerg, et. al. wrote:
> We consider...
[Editorial comment]
"We" isn't qualified in either the Subject or the beginning of the
post. You need to go to the end of the lengthy message to see that
the "Position Statement" is from a collection of Developers, rather
than Debian as a whole. "Un-offic
Sorry for the wording but it's way more than I can take:
On 10/27/06, Anthony Towns wrote:
[...]
> - How is the success of this "experiment" measured? (For the release as
> well as for the entire project)
An "experiment" is successful as long as it provides useful information.
What the fuc
Thibaut VARENE writes:
> Sorry for the wording but it's way more than I can take:
>
> On 10/27/06, Anthony Towns wrote:
> [...]
>> > - How is the success of this "experiment" measured? (For the release as
>> > well as for the entire project)
>>
>> An "experiment" is successful as long as it pro
Re: Anthony Towns 2006-10-27 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Anthony,
thank you very much for the in-depth reply, that's what I had hoped
for when signing in to the statement.
> I'd encourage people both pro- and anti- Dunc-Tank to consider the advice
> of http://www.donotfeedtheenergybeast.com/ and whet
On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 03:21:10PM +0200, Thibaut VARENE wrote:
> Sorry for the wording but it's way more than I can take:
>
> On 10/27/06, Anthony Towns wrote:
> [...]
> >> - How is the success of this "experiment" measured? (For the release as
> >> well as for the entire project)
> >
> >An "e
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Actually, what you describe is a successful experiment. In fact, the
>Nazis did such things with humans. Now, such things are not ethical.
Thank you for your contribute, now we can consider the thread finished.
--
ciao,
Marco
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROT
"Roberto C. Sanchez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 03:21:10PM +0200, Thibaut VARENE wrote:
> > On 10/27/06, Anthony Towns wrote:
> > >An "experiment" is successful as long as it provides useful information.
> >
> > What the is this definition of "successful"??!
> >
>
[Joerg Jaspert pisze na temat "Position Statement to the
Dunc-Tanc "experiment""]:
Dear authors of the <> (whoever position it states),
Please stop abusing the debian-devel-announce, this is not acceptable.
If you just cannot stand the fact that the majority of the
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006, [iso-8859-2] Miros?aw Baran wrote:
Please stop abusing the debian-devel-announce, this is not acceptable.
I can not see any abuse of d-d-a. The mail is well thought, written
in a style that is by far less offending than todays standard and has
a major point concerning Deb
On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 07:46:00PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> After a long and ambivalent discussion during the last weeks the project
> "Dunc Tank" (short DT from now on) has recently started. We consider
> that to be a major change to the Debian project culture: For the first
> time
Andrew Pollock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [lengthy whinge snipped]
Funny. Looks to me like some valid unanswered questions were snipped,
some of which were asked right back near when this effort was first
mentioned.
> I think it's uncool to be sending emails to d-d-a with "position statement
Good evening!
Sorry for contributing to a side thread this late. This mail slept in my
drafts folder for several day. Only today I find the time to finish and send it.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:36:31 +0100
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think it's uncool to be sending emails to d-d-a wi
58 matches
Mail list logo
