"s. keeling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Incoming from Faheem Mitha:
>>
>> well. The bottom line is that in Python whitespace is syntatically
>> meaningful, in C etc. it is not.
>>
>> This has the consequence that in C, emacs is able to correctly indent
>> the code, using the built-in syntax
"s. keeling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> On the other hand, much of the time emacs does not know what to do
>> with Python code (when in python mode, that is), since part of the
>
> This is surely a deficiency in emacs' python mode?
The mind-reading interface is not yet completed. A sufficien
Incoming from Faheem Mitha:
>
> well. The bottom line is that in Python whitespace is syntatically
> meaningful, in C etc. it is not.
>
> This has the consequence that in C, emacs is able to correctly indent
> the code, using the built-in syntax rules it knows about. This is very
> useful since
On Sat, 29 May 2004 15:54:48 +0200, Kai Grossjohann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Faheem Mitha wrote:
>>> Bob Proulx makes good points elsewhere in this thread. Whether you
>>> like the indentation as syntax feature is really a matter of
>>> taste. Persona
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Uck, nasty. Give me nothing but spaces, please, because there will be
> problems in that setup.
The only problem I can see is that the right tab/space mix might get
lost.
Kai
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsub
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>Well, of course it would, You used nothing but tabs to achieve the
>>alignment you wanted. There's no mixing of spaces and tabs.
> There IS mixing of tabs and spaces. It seems there is a
> misunderstanding.
> In the followin
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Well, of course it would, You used nothing but tabs to achieve the
> alignment you wanted. There's no mixing of spaces and tabs.
There IS mixing of tabs and spaces. It seems there is a
misunderstanding.
In the following, I will use "--->" to show a
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> To wit, consider this piece of code, based on tab width = 4:
Ok, let's use alternating t and T to represent the tab characters.
> for(;;) {
> if (a == b) {
> some_long_function_name(a,
> b);
> }
> }
> I used spaces only
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> and also what's the display width of a tab character.
Here you would be wrong.
--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---
Derrick 'dman' Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> If tabs and spaces are combined for indentation purposes, then when
> you change your tab display width you will see a horrid mess of
> incorrectly indented code.
This is often, but not always the case. I explained how tabs and
spaces are combi
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Kai Grossjohann wrote:
>
>> My proposal was meant to allow people to edit the same file, but to
>> see different things depending on their preferences. I believe in
>> giving people the choice to view things as they like.
>
> Which doesn't work in a co
On Sat, May 29, 2004 at 09:40:49PM -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
| On 2004-05-29, Steve Lamb penned:
| >
| >> Syntax highlighting (at least full syntax highlighting), you
| >> certainly don't have.
| >
| > Which would be the one.
|
| At the risk of undermining my own argument, if you use vim
On Sun, May 30, 2004 at 07:45:41PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
| Kai Grossjohann wrote:
| > If you have more than one level, then you need to hit >> more often.
| > (At least if my understanding of >> does is right.)
Correct.
| As I said, meaningful problem.
| I certainly don't see this a p
On Monday 31 May 2004 09:57, Colin Watson wrote:
> Civilized societies should outlaw absurdly-drawn-out coding style
> arguments on public mailing lists, especially when I have to
> attempt to read them over a tediously slow ssh connection from a
> conference in a different hemisphere.
Yes, but at
Civilized societies should outlaw absurdly-drawn-out coding style
arguments on public mailing lists, especially when I have to attempt to
read them over a tediously slow ssh connection from a conference in a
different hemisphere.
--
Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> If you have more than one level, then you need to hit >> more often.
> (At least if my understanding of >> does is right.)
As I said, meaningful problem. I certainly don't see this a problem as I
could just prefix it with a count and I have found, from personal experi
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> My proposal was meant to allow people to edit the same file, but to
> see different things depending on their preferences. I believe in
> giving people the choice to view things as they like.
Which doesn't work in a collaberative environment; even then coding
standard
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Kai Grossjohann wrote:
>> This will work for one level of nesting. But this means you need to
>> keep track of the nesting levels when moving things around in the
>> code.
>
> Huh? Works for multiple levels. I've often refactored code from simple
> f
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I set tab width to 4, align at 6. Tab + 2 spaces. Person sets his tabs
> to 8 the line is 10 spaces out, 4 spaces too far. That's why people insist on
> a tab width of 8. If tabs were immutable like that mixing tabs and spaces
> wouldn't be a proble
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Kai Grossjohann wrote:
>> You have mentioned a number of problems, but your proposal has even
>> more problems.
>
> Such as what exactly?
>
> Indention works. Alignment works. Everyone sees the same thing.
This is the problem: everyone sees t
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> You have mentioned a number of problems, but your proposal has even
> more problems.
Such as what exactly?
Indention works. Alignment works. Everyone sees the same thing. If they
are working on the same code they use the same style. In the case of Python
t
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Kai Grossjohann wrote:
>> Well, nothing that couldn't be solved with a somewhat wider window.
>> Many people like to have windows wider than 80 columns. (I prefer 80
>> columns, myself.)
>
> And wider paper? The commonly accepted practice is that code
dircha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Kai Grossjohann wrote:
>
>> The style I'm proposing is designed to make it possible to change
>> tab width!
>
> It does not work.
Yeah...
> Consider the problems created with a code file created by a user who
> prefers 8-character-width tabs _and_ 80 columns.
On 2004-05-29, dircha penned:
[snippage]
>
> First, this requires that the user perform a tab width calculation for
> each wrapping to determine where it would wrap were it displayed with
> code.
Well, if you're using vim, at least, you can set the textwidth once for
every edit session and be do
On 2004-05-29, Steve Lamb penned:
>
>> Syntax highlighting (at least full syntax highlighting), you
>> certainly don't have.
>
> Which would be the one.
At the risk of undermining my own argument, if you use vim as your
pager, you can get syntax hilighting. That's what I do. And it turns
out
Micha Feigin wrote:
On Sat, May 29, 2004 at 04:50:09PM -0500, dircha wrote:
Actually the best method when collaborating on someone else's work is
to adopt their coding style. If its a joint work then you should a
agree on a coding style in the first place.
On my last job, every new programmer had
On Sat, May 29, 2004 at 04:50:09PM -0500, dircha wrote:
> Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> >Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>if (foo){
> >> if (bar){
> >> foreach $foo (@bar){
> >> while $foo < $baz{
> >> some really long and convoluted computation here
> >> }
> >> }
> >> }
> >>
Micha Feigin wrote:
> Scrolling depends on several things and off course you can scroll back
> using the console with more and cat if you configure it to save enough
> lines and scroll both ways with less and most but its not as powerful
> as a full editor.
First off we were talking about page
On Sat, May 29, 2004 at 12:41:53PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Micha Feigin wrote:
> > You don't have same power of scrolling, searching, syntax highlighting,
> > customizable indentation etc. as with a proper editor.
>
> Only one of those claims is true. I'll leave it as an exercise to you to
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> This will work for one level of nesting. But this means you need to
> keep track of the nesting levels when moving things around in the
> code.
Huh? Works for multiple levels. I've often refactored code from simple
functions into a large class oriented framework. T
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
if (foo){
if (bar){
foreach $foo (@bar){
while $foo < $baz{
some really long and convoluted computation here
}
}
}
}
Now expand that out to someone's preferred 8 per line (ew) and
you'll see that the "some re
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> Well, nothing that couldn't be solved with a somewhat wider window.
> Many people like to have windows wider than 80 columns. (I prefer 80
> columns, myself.)
And wider paper? The commonly accepted practice is that code should not
be wider than 80 columns; 78 being a
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> First off it looks damned wrong so you know something's wrong. Where in
> the above example it looks wrong but works. It may, in fact, *be* weong.
> Secondly I dunno about EMACS but in VIM, highligh the 2 middle lines, hit >>.
> Tada, indented just f
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Kai Grossjohann wrote:
>> If the middle two lines were indented with a tab, then people could
>> view this code with different indentation settings by just frobbing
>> the tab width, without changing the file contents.
>
> Good in theory, bad in practic
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> What happens when, after moving a block, it is surrounded by more or
> less levels of conditionals or loops? I don't program Python, so I
> don't know.
[ snip ]
> I can paste some lines in the middle of this easily:
> if (...) {
> a;
> d;
> e;
> b;
> }
> Then I
Micha Feigin wrote:
> Because for good and for bad that will lock you into editor dependency
> (you need the proper indenting capabilities) and coding style.
> The later is not necessarily bad.
How does it lock me into an editor? So far the most significant feature
needed is: autoindent. Th
Micha Feigin wrote:
> You don't have same power of scrolling, searching, syntax highlighting,
> customizable indentation etc. as with a proper editor.
Only one of those claims is true. I'll leave it as an exercise to you to
figure out which one. It'll be good for you as a learning process.
Kai Grossjohann wrote:
> If the middle two lines were indented with a tab, then people could
> view this code with different indentation settings by just frobbing
> the tab width, without changing the file contents.
Good in theory, bad in practice. For example, in my Perl code I prefer an
ind
On Sat, May 29, 2004 at 01:13:38PM +1000, Cameron Hutchison wrote:
> Once upon a time Micha Feigin said...
> > On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 12:00:03PM -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
> > > On 2004-05-28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] penned:
> > > > s. keeling wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> However, this is likely only
On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 08:46:22PM -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
> On 2004-05-29, Micha Feigin penned:
> > On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 01:32:24PM -0600, s. keeling wrote:
> >>
> >> And if it's python, we're hosed.
> >>
> > Since I am not a python user, why so?
>
> Because in python, scope is deter
On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 07:55:49PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> s. keeling wrote:
> > Indentation is syntactical in python. No, I don't know why.
>
> Better to ask why in most other languages there are two syntaxes. One for
> the computer, one for the human.
>
> This is legal:
> if (foo){
Incoming from Kai Grossjohann:
>
> Also, I find it interesting that RMS is not opposed to duplication of
> code. Given the results, his position can't be all that stupid. Of
> course, this contradicts with the teaching we all got in school, where
> they told us that duplicating code leads us to
"Derrick 'dman' Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, May 26, 2004 at 07:21:38PM +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
>
> | On the other hand, indentation is easily lost
> | information, for example when cutting and pasting.
>
> In practice this isn't a problem. Cut and paste the entire block of
>
"Monique Y. Mudama" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I may or may not feel like changing my tabwidth settings just to read
> your g*dd*mn code!
Actually, using real tabs allows us to view the same file with
different indentation levels. However, this requires some thought
and no editor I know of ap
Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Faheem Mitha wrote:
>> Bob Proulx makes good points elsewhere in this thread. Whether you
>> like the indentation as syntax feature is really a matter of
>> taste. Personally, I am ambivalent about it. On the one hand it makes
>> code more compact. On the o
On 2004-05-29, Micha Feigin penned:
> On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 01:32:24PM -0600, s. keeling wrote:
>>
>> And if it's python, we're hosed.
>>
> Since I am not a python user, why so?
Because in python, scope is determined entirely by indentation.
>> Here's another: displaying a file in less/more/p
On 2004-05-29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] penned:
> What if the editor you're using actually puts five spaces when you hit
> tab? In that case, just about any editor should display it correctly.
>
Then you're not using tabs and no one cares.
I don't care if you type alt-ctrl-apple-B to insert your 5 space
Once upon a time Micha Feigin said...
> On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 12:00:03PM -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
> > On 2004-05-28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] penned:
> > > s. keeling wrote:
> > >>
> > >> However, this is likely only a problem for those of us who hate tabs.
> > >> Those who like tabs are blissfu
Is it perhaps time to take this argument off-list? Just a thought.
Patrick
On Fri, 28 May 2004, Steve Lamb wrote:
:s. keeling wrote:
:> Indentation is syntactical in python. No, I don't know why.
:
:Better to ask why in most other languages there are two syntaxes. One for
:the computer, o
s. keeling wrote:
> Indentation is syntactical in python. No, I don't know why.
Better to ask why in most other languages there are two syntaxes. One for
the computer, one for the human.
This is legal:
if (foo){bar;}lese{baz;}
So is this:
if (foo)
{
bar;
}
else
{
baz;
}
But we
Incoming from [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> What if the editor you're using actually puts five spaces when you hit
> tab? In that case, just about any editor should display it correctly.
My editors (emacs & vim) do. Display is not the only problem.
What happens in vi(m) when you're sitting on a tab char
Incoming from Micha Feigin:
> On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 01:32:24PM -0600, s. keeling wrote:
> >
> > And if it's python, we're hosed.
>
> Since I am not a python user, why so?
Indentation is syntactical in python. No, I don't know why.
> > Here's another: displaying a file in less/more/pg/most ma
Incoming from Micha Feigin:
> On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 12:00:03PM -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
> > On 2004-05-28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] penned:
> > > s. keeling wrote:
> > >>
> > >> However, this is likely only a problem for those of us who hate tabs.
> > >> Those who like tabs are blissfully ignora
On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 01:32:24PM -0600, s. keeling wrote:
> Incoming from Monique Y. Mudama:
> > On 2004-05-28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] penned:
> > >
> > > s. keeling wrote:
> > >>
> > >> However, this is likely only a problem for those of us who hate tabs.
> > >> Those who like tabs are blissfully ig
On Fri, May 28, 2004 at 12:00:03PM -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
> On 2004-05-28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] penned:
> >
> >
> > s. keeling wrote:
> >>
> >> However, this is likely only a problem for those of us who hate tabs.
> >> Those who like tabs are blissfully ignorant of the problems they
> >> cau
What if the editor you're using actually puts five spaces when you hit
tab? In that case, just about any editor should display it correctly.
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Incoming from Monique Y. Mudama:
> On 2004-05-28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] penned:
> >
> > s. keeling wrote:
> >>
> >> However, this is likely only a problem for those of us who hate tabs.
> >> Those who like tabs are blissfully ignorant of the problems they
> >> cause. Thankfully, we've found ways to d
On 2004-05-28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] penned:
>
>
> s. keeling wrote:
>>
>> However, this is likely only a problem for those of us who hate tabs.
>> Those who like tabs are blissfully ignorant of the problems they
>> cause. Thankfully, we've found ways to deal with this ridiculous
>> preference of you
s. keeling wrote:
However, this is likely only a problem for those of us who hate tabs.
Those who like tabs are blissfully ignorant of the problems they
cause. Thankfully, we've found ways to deal with this ridiculous
preference of yours (man expand, man unexpand, perldoc Text::Tabs, ...).
What k
Incoming from Micha Feigin:
> On Thu, May 27, 2004 at 05:56:00PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> >
> > No self respecting programmer should ever use tabs. Ever. And yeah, I
> > know certain people (*cough*Linus*cough*) does, doesn't mean the rest of us
>
> It doesn't really matter what method yo
On Thu, May 27, 2004 at 05:56:00PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Micha Feigin wrote:
> > And I don't remember the syntax, but you can get vim to use tabs
> > instead of spaces also.
>
> No self respecting programmer should ever use tabs. Ever. And yeah, I
> know certain people (*cough*Linus*cou
Micha Feigin wrote:
> And I don't remember the syntax, but you can get vim to use tabs
> instead of spaces also.
No self respecting programmer should ever use tabs. Ever. And yeah, I
know certain people (*cough*Linus*cough*) does, doesn't mean the rest of us
mere mortals should lest we get g
On Wed, May 26, 2004 at 04:41:55PM -0600, s. keeling wrote:
> Incoming from Steve Lamb:
> > Faheem Mitha wrote:
> > > Bob Proulx makes good points elsewhere in this thread. Whether you
> > > like the indentation as syntax feature is really a matter of
> > > taste. Personally, I am ambivalent about
Incoming from Steve Lamb:
> Faheem Mitha wrote:
> > Bob Proulx makes good points elsewhere in this thread. Whether you
> > like the indentation as syntax feature is really a matter of
> > taste. Personally, I am ambivalent about it. On the one hand it makes
>
> So have EMACS treat the tab key
Faheem Mitha wrote:
> Bob Proulx makes good points elsewhere in this thread. Whether you
> like the indentation as syntax feature is really a matter of
> taste. Personally, I am ambivalent about it. On the one hand it makes
> code more compact. On the other hand, indentation is easily lost
> inform
On Wed, May 26, 2004 at 07:21:38PM +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
| On Fri, 21 May 2004 20:33:14 -0400, richard lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| > That makes two votes for Python (the other was off-list). I've had it
| > in mind to find time to investigate Python -- so I'll have a go at
| > tha
On Fri, 21 May 2004 20:33:14 -0400, richard lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That makes two votes for Python (the other was off-list). I've had it
> in mind to find time to investigate Python -- so I'll have a go at
> that.
Make that 3 votes. :-) I recently started learning Python. I like
it
On Monday 24 May 2004 06:00, Nick Croft wrote:
> * richard lyons ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > H 0.00
> >
> > On Sunday 23 May 2004 12:35, Joachim Fahnenmueller wrote:
> > > Hi Richard
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 21, 2004 at 02:55:35PM -0400, richard lyons wrote:
> > > > I'm asking for a bit of ad
richard lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> But it seems to me most rational to use the opportunity to begin
> learning one of the lighter languages that I keep seeing mention of.
> So the question is, which do you people recommend?
IMHO, none of Perl, Python, Ruby is "lighter" than the othe
* richard lyons ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> H 0.00
>
> On Sunday 23 May 2004 12:35, Joachim Fahnenmueller wrote:
> > Hi Richard
> >
> > On Fri, May 21, 2004 at 02:55:35PM -0400, richard lyons wrote:
> > > I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
> > >
> > > I wish to convert a kaddressbook databa
On Sunday 23 May 2004 12:35, Joachim Fahnenmueller wrote:
> Hi Richard
>
> On Fri, May 21, 2004 at 02:55:35PM -0400, richard lyons wrote:
> > I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
> >
> > I wish to convert a kaddressbook database to abook format saving
> > as many fields as possible.
[...]
> I did a
Hi Richard
On Fri, May 21, 2004 at 02:55:35PM -0400, richard lyons wrote:
> I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
>
> I wish to convert a kaddressbook database to abook format saving as
> many fields as possible.
>
> (...)
>
> But it seems to me most rational to use the opportunity to begin
richard lyons wrote:
> I keep seeing mention of Ruby, but have no idea what its strengths
> are.
I was biting my fingers to keep from posting a pro-ruby message. But
now I can't resist.
Perl is a very "evolved" language. It grew like a mold. It was not
designed into the language that it is tod
On Fri, 21 May 2004, richard lyons wrote:
> On Friday 21 May 2004 18:56, Benedict Verheyen wrote:
> > richard lyons wrote:
> > > I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
> [...]
> > > learning one of the lighter languages that I keep seeing mention
> > > of. So the question is, which do you people rec
On Fri, May 21, 2004 at 02:55:35PM -0400, richard lyons wrote:
> I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
>
> I wish to convert a kaddressbook database to abook format saving as
> many fields as possible.
>
> I could do this by exporting to cvs, importing to gnumeric (or any
> spreadsheet), shu
richard lyons wrote:
[...]
A lot of languages are suited for this. A really easy language to
learn is
Python. There is also php, java and so on.
php is really for talking to a webserver, which is unnecessary for the
kind of things I have in mind. Java... hmmm... I keep seeing mention
of Ruby,
Benedict Verheyen wrote:
richard lyons wrote:
I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
I wish to convert a kaddressbook database to abook format saving as
many fields as possible.
The input data will be the cvs dump from kmail, and the output will be
abook native format, which is a series of numbered p
On Friday 21 May 2004 18:56, Benedict Verheyen wrote:
> richard lyons wrote:
> > I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
[...]
> > learning one of the lighter languages that I keep seeing mention
> > of. So the question is, which do you people recommend?
[...]
>
> A lot of languages are suited for thi
richard lyons wrote:
> I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
>
> I wish to convert a kaddressbook database to abook format saving as
> many fields as possible.
>
> I could do this by exporting to cvs, importing to gnumeric (or any
> spreadsheet), shuffling the columns around, re-exporting to cvs and
On Fri, 21 May 2004 14:55:35 -0400
richard lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm asking for a bit of advice here.
>
> I wish to convert a kaddressbook database to abook format saving as
> many fields as possible.
>
[ ... ]
>
> I could probably do it in perl - but I've never really learn
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