Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 08:27:13AM +, Anthony Towns wrote: > To me, Debian at it's best is kind of an extremist leader in > organisational transparency: You may be seeing things that I don't see. > - we released all our source code for everything before 'open source' >was even invented

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 03:27:19PM +, Anthony Towns wrote: > When I joined Debian I endorsed the social contract [0] which said > "we won't hide problems". "we won't hide problems" is not the same thing as "we'll put all our garbage out in the open"... -- < ron> I mean, the main *practical*

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Anthony Towns writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > [something pro-transparency] I would strongly encourage you to try to come up with a proposal which represents your own view about what should be done. You only need 5

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 03:27:19PM +, Anthony Towns wrote: > One of the benefits of eventually publishing all discussions You are not suggesting that we should publish posts where their author explicitly says they should never be declassified,

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Bas Wijnen writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 03:07:43PM +, Anthony Towns wrote: > > Making the discussions public is a way of demonstrating conspiracy theories > > along those lines are

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Anthony Towns writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > Since then there have been other important discussions [examples] It seems to me that most of those conversations are excellent examples of using -private properly, for its

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thanks for the reply. On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 03:07:43PM +, Anthony Towns wrote: > ] This list has hosted a number of significant discussions over the years, > ] including most of the discussion inspiring the original statement > ] of Debian's

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 09:28:40PM +, Nick Phillips wrote: > On Fri, 2016-09-16 at 06:51 +, Anthony Towns wrote: > > It is obviously okay for anyone who posted to disclose what they > > wrote > > to -private at any point; maybe a feasible and interesting starting > > point would be a

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 12:28:37PM +, Bas Wijnen wrote: I had a longer reply to the rest of this mail, but I'm not seeing the point. > Which leads me to a repeat of a point I've seen before (and I didn't follow > the > entire discussion, so I may have missed an answer to it): are there any

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

* Gunnar Wolf: " Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list" (Thu, 1 Sep 2016 23:15:05 -0500): > === BEGIN GR TEXT === > > Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain private. > > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Tue, 2016-09-20 at 21:22 +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 10:17:46AM +0200, Bart Martens wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2016-09-01 at 23:15 -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > > > > > === BEGIN GR TEXT === > > > > > > Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain > > >

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 10:17:46AM +0200, Bart Martens wrote: > On Thu, 2016-09-01 at 23:15 -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > === BEGIN GR TEXT === > > > > Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain private. > > > > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled "Declassification of debian-

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 06:53:01PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > Then there is a proposal from Iain Lane : > > > Title: debian-private shall remain private > > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 11:15:05PM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > === BEGIN GR TEXT === > > Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain private. > > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled "Declassification of debian-private >lisa archives" is repealed. > 2. In keeping with

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Fri, 2016-09-16 at 06:51 +, Anthony Towns wrote: > It is obviously okay for anyone who posted to disclose what they > wrote > to -private at any point; maybe a feasible and interesting starting > point would be a service that let's people easily disclose their own > old mails to -private.

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 08:27:13AM +, Anthony Towns wrote: > > I now also tend to think that we, as a collection of individuals, also need > > some sort of "safe space" to discuss certain things, that can't be public. > > FWIW, that's pretty

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:09:37PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Le dimanche, 11 septembre 2016, 11.01:09 h CEST Anthony Towns a écrit : > > In that sense, my reading of the original version of the GR that just > > failed was pretty much "eh, we don't care that much about transparency > >

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 09:36:24AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes: > > I now also tend to think that we, as a collection of individuals, also > > need some sort of "safe space" to discuss certain things, [...] > Furthermore, I think it's unrealistic that

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 02:04:19PM +0200, Thibaut Paumard wrote: > My understanding is that at least some of us don't want a generic > process right now, but would be quite fine with someone trying to work > out a process that works for a well defined subset of debian-private. That's... an

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Le 13/09/2016 à 08:36, David Kalnischkies a écrit : > On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 03:16:55PM +0200, Thibaut Paumard wrote: >> This is a very well defined goal that you have here. If you do care >> and do volunteer for the task, why don't you try to identify the >> relevant messages for your historic

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 03:16:55PM +0200, Thibaut Paumard wrote: > This is a very well defined goal that you have here. If you do care > and do volunteer for the task, why don't you try to identify the > relevant messages for your historic interest, and propose a process to > declassify only this

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes: > I now also tend to think that we, as a collection of individuals, also > need some sort of "safe space" to discuss certain things, that can't be > public. Some of these things can't immediately be public, and some > other things can't ever.

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Le 10/09/2016 à 10:46, David Kalnischkies a écrit : > 2. My interest in declassification is (surprise surprise) apt > related, as its history has obvious plot holes. It is hard enough > to follow over a few lists which are used pretty

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Bart Martens writes: > Anyone reading something of potential public value on debian-private > can always request the original author for permission to quote in > public. Note that the original author is the only person who can fully > assess how private the message was, since

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Le jeudi, 1 septembre 2016, 23.15:05 h CEST Gunnar Wolf a écrit : > === BEGIN GR TEXT === > > Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain private. > > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled "Declassification of debian-private >list archives" is repealed. > 2. In keeping with

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Le dimanche, 11 septembre 2016, 11.01:09 h CEST Anthony Towns a écrit : > In that sense, my reading of the original version of the GR that just > failed was pretty much "eh, we don't care that much about transparency > when it comes to ourselves and it's time we admit that". Which is fine, I

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

* Anthony Towns , 2016-09-11, 11:01: - after 2017/01/01 00:00:00 UTC, every post to -private will be published publically 3.14159 years after receipt * no exceptions. * posting to -private on any topic is okay if there's some reason for it to be private rather

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 05:53:23PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > Something like that, yes. It might even be possible to, for example, > infer what the topic of an activity spike was likely to be, and then > infer from timing who was giving input into sensitive discussions; > [...] > Detailed

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 05:07:47PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > * We do not want to introduce any new barriers to declassification. I do. Regards, Bart Martens

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 11:27:31AM +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > * Whatever else people come up. I suggest to just repeal the 2005 GR, so we don't have any rules on declassification of debian-private by GR. I suggest we rely on common sense instead: The part "-private" in debian-private should

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Thu, 2016-09-01 at 23:15 -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > === BEGIN GR TEXT === > > Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain private. > > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled "Declassification of debian- > private >    list archives" is repealed. > 2. In keeping with paragraph

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 03:40:41PM +0200, David Kalnischkies wrote: > I would be very interested in an explanation [off-list & encrypted if > it is too private] as I can't come up with a reason why that could be > a concious decision to not show the number of mails sent to d-private > over time as

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Ian Jackson dijo [Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 05:44:07PM +0100]: > Gunnar Wolf writes ("Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification > of the debian-private mailing list"): > > === BEGIN GR TEXT === > > > > Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain private. > > > > 1. The

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Gunnar Wolf writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > Myabe Ian fears (I don't want to attribute ideas he has not yet > discussed) that somebody external to the project will try to correlate > events with spikes in d-private

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Gunnar Wolf writes ("Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > === BEGIN GR TEXT === > > Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain private. > > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled "Declassification of debian-private >

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Ian Jackson dijo [Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 03:08:27PM +0100]: > For me the ethical basis for this is that people who have posted > messages to -private did so (and continue to do so) on the basis of > the policy in force at the time when they decided to send their > message. It is the policy in force

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

David Kalnischkies dijo [Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 03:40:41PM +0200]: > Just to ensure we talk about the same: I was referring to: > https://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-private.png vs e.g. > https://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-vote.png . > > I would be very interested in an explanation [off-list &

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Micha Lenk dijo [Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 04:53:52AM +0200]: > TL,DR: Nice proposal, seconded. Please note that Ian answered to a post, did not yet make a GR proposal. What IMHO should happen is that we have more than a binary GR. That is, I believe that, if there is a GR with the text I copied from

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

David Kalnischkies writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > On Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 12:48:02PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > > David Kalnischkies writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for > > declassification of the

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

David Kalnischkies writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > So what is it what you propose? > > 2, 4 and 5 are clearly intended to "tie hands"¹ to specific "whatevers" > fitting a given template. And if your believe is that the

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 12:48:02PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > David Kalnischkies writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for > declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > > On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 05:07:47PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > > Basic example: How many mails are sent

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Micha Lenk writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > [stuff] Thanks for a useful contribution. > The last two paragraphs might be off-topic on d-vote already, so let's better > not discuss further technical/implementation details

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Hi David, On Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 01:20:58PM +0200, David Kalnischkies wrote: > [...] no official document defines d-private (beside the GR2005 maybe > implicitly), [...] This is not entirely true. The Debian Developers Reference, section 4.1.3 "Special lists" contains this paragraph: >

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

David Kalnischkies writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 05:07:47PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > > 4. But, any weakening of the privacy expectations must not be > > retrospective: changes should

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 05:07:47PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > As I read the messages the principles which are partly in conflict (or > which seem to be in conflict) are: I think the "conflict" runs much deeper in that we have different opinions on a) what a useful declassification is and b) who

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Micha Lenk writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > Thank you for the new proposal which now addresses my major concerns. > Retrospective policy changes are now explicitly forbidden (#4). And I > totally agree that we should not

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 TL,DR: Nice proposal, seconded. Am 08.09.2016 um 18:07 schrieb Ian Jackson: > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for > declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): >> If we're going to have another discussion

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Gunnar Wolf writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > I would agree to something like this. However, Point #2 has shown to > be not implementable in practice for eight years already. Point #2 is my "In case volunteers should come

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Ian Jackson dijo [Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 05:07:47PM +0100]: > (...) > So, how about something like this: > > Title: Acknowledge difficulty of declassifying debian-private > > 1. The Debian Project regrets the non-implementation of the 2005 > General Resolution titled "Declassification of

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list"): > If we're going to have another discussion and vote about this, I > think it might be good to vote with a full spectrum of choices on the > ballot. I don't object to this,

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Lars Wirzenius dijo [Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 11:27:31AM +0300]: > On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 11:15:05PM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled "Declassification of debian-private > >list archives" is repealed. > > If we're going to have another discussion and vote about

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 11:27:31AM +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > * Whatever else people come up. Require that whoever starts a thread on -private that doesn't have [VAC] in the subject, explicitly states the privacy concerns on the message[1], and disclose accordingly. This could be implemented

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

* Gunnar Wolf , 2016-09-01, 23:15: === BEGIN GR TEXT === Title: Acknowledge that the debian-private list will remain private. 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled "Declassification of debian-private list archives" is repealed. 2. In keeping with paragraph 3 of the Debian

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 11:15:05PM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > 1. The 2005 General Resolution titled "Declassification of debian-private >list archives" is repealed. If we're going to have another discussion and vote about this, I think it might be good to vote with a full spectrum of choices

Re: Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

I hereby second the proposal below: Le 02/09/2016 à 06:15, Gunnar Wolf a écrit : > Some weeks ago, Nicolas Dandrimont proposed a GR for declassifying > debian-private[1]. In the course of the following discussion, he > accepted[2] Don Armstrong's amendment[3], which intended to clarify the >

Proposed GR: Repeal the 2005 vote for declassification of the debian-private mailing list

Some weeks ago, Nicolas Dandrimont proposed a GR for declassifying debian-private[1]. In the course of the following discussion, he accepted[2] Don Armstrong's amendment[3], which intended to clarify the meaning and implementation regarding the work of our delegates and the powers of the DPL, and