> Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > There's a difference between a topic as a whole, and a sub-thread which
> > does not appear to be going anywhere useful.
On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 10:09:07AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> Sure. I have asked the questions on-topic here (summarised at
> http://deb
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Sure. I have asked the questions on-topic here (summarised at
> > http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-exclusion.html
> > http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-debian-women.html )
> > and
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Sure. I have asked the questions on-topic here (summarised at
> http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-exclusion.html
> http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-debian-women.html )
> and hope candidates will answer.
Both of those pages are un
Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There's a difference between a topic as a whole, and a sub-thread which
> does not appear to be going anywhere useful.
Sure. I have asked the questions on-topic here (summarised at
http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-exclusion.html
http://debia
> Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > [Note: I originally posted this to another list -- thinking this whole
> > debian-women thread was off topic for debian-vote. M.J. Ray
> > indicated only that he thinks debian-vote is the appropriate list, so
> > I'm reposting it here, with minor edi
Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [Note: I originally posted this to another list -- thinking this whole
> debian-women thread was off topic for debian-vote. M.J. Ray
> indicated only that he thinks debian-vote is the appropriate list, so
> I'm reposting it here, with minor edits.]
What
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Right, you're still avoiding the questions and following your own
> agenda on some misunderstood point. I'm not keen on any further
> off-topic, so I just ask you to reread my messages and think
> whether you read the "offensive" messages for the point I made.
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > > to discrimination, but I was told that wasn't a list purpose:
> > > > are you saying it is? Why do you know better than others?
> > I notice that you do not directly answer any question.
> I am saying tha di
[Note: I originally posted this to another list -- thinking this whole
debian-women thread was off topic for debian-vote. M.J. Ray
indicated only that he thinks debian-vote is the appropriate list, so
I'm reposting it here, with minor edits.]
Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > And, per
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > > If you think this is *wrong*, then why? Because you have a right to
> > > > be responded to no matter what you say, even when you are hostile to
> > > > the purposes the list was created for?
> > > I'm not hostile to balancing debian's composition. I'm
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...]
> > Not in that sense, but that sense doesn't follow directly from
> > the word "policy". I'd expect someone consistently ignoring it
> > to be corrected, but ICBW.
> It's not policy regardless. It's a recomm
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The idea to ignore trolls is hardly new, or unusual. Nor is it a
> > "policy", in the sense that anyone is ordered to ignore them under
> > pain of expulsion. [...]
>
> Not in that sense, but that sense doesn'
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The idea to ignore trolls is hardly new, or unusual. Nor is it a
> "policy", in the sense that anyone is ordered to ignore them under
> pain of expulsion. [...]
Not in that sense, but that sense doesn't follow directly from
the word "policy". I'd ex
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The debian-women list FAQ is on http://women.alioth.debian.org/faqs/
> and the odd policy is under "Miscellaneous" thus:
>
>Just like every other online community, there will probably
>be the occasional troll. Do not make the mistake of treating
>t
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > See top and tail of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > (also at http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00471.html )
> > which is as explicit as it will get for now. Not enough time.
> Nothing in there is a FAQ, to
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So then what is your complaint about the "debate-killing silence
> > policy"? Maybe you should be more explicit.
>
> See top and tail of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> (also at http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So then what is your complaint about the "debate-killing silence
> policy"? Maybe you should be more explicit.
See top and tail of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(also at http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00471.html )
which is as explicit as it w
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > For example, "Searching for Safety Online" (which recommends
> > > "pro-active interventions") has been used to justify the
> > > debate-killing silence policy in the Li
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > For example, "Searching for Safety Online" (which recommends
> > "pro-active interventions") has been used to justify the
> > debate-killing silence policy in the List FAQ, which seems just
> > plain broken.
> W
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> For example, "Searching for Safety Online" (which recommends
> "pro-active interventions") has been used to justify the
> debate-killing silence policy in the List FAQ, which seems just
> plain broken.
Wait, you think that people have an obligation to reply to
Erinn Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > could get a voice within the debian-women culture. Probably
> > a lot of the time that will be directing to FAQs or codes,
> > but there's always something not covered there. Using a
> > smaller number of people makes it easier to spot new conduct
> > FAQs
* MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:10 14:01 +]:
> I was pretty sure I put at least one suggestion through a bug
> tracker. My memory is not brilliant. Others were almost all
> off-list because of the atmosphere, so can't be shown in public
> and that means some here wouldn't believe it. :-/
Erinn Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:10 10:33 +]:=20
> > Some of my suggestions have been accepted previously. Damned
> > if I can find the right bug tracker entries for them, though.
> Yeah, a bug tracker might be nice, but it seems a bit overboard [..
* MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:10 10:33 +]:
> Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 02:36:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > If it's fair to call one-sided example genders on www.debian as
> > > a bug, let's call it a bug where it happens across all debian.
Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 02:36:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> > If it's fair to call one-sided example genders on www.debian as
> > a bug, let's call it a bug where it happens across all debian.
> That's a fair call. So are you going to follow d-women's exam
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I think you're confusing that project with a web page. [...]
>
> Not really. The project maintains the web page. The project
> has a mailing list. On both of these and some others, when a
> choice is made on how to include or exclude from something,
> sex is
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> linuxchix specifically exclude men from some meetings and
> facilities. Absence of a similar group was a feature. It's a
> shame that things deteriorated to the point one was created.
We don't have a group that excludes men from its meetings and
facilities.
On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 02:36:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> If it's fair to call one-sided example genders on www.debian as
> a bug, let's call it a bug where it happens across all debian.
That's a fair call. So are you going to follow d-women's example, get
involved in the project you feel is a pr
also sprach Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.09.2107 +0100]:
> > Why is it called debian-women?
>
> Because the effort, the project, is aimed at increasing the
> involvement of women in Debian. So debian-women as a name made
> perfect sense :)
I had a deeper question in mind, but failed to be
Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And, personally, I really don't see the relevance in the context of
> this web page. If you're tired, and want to just get stuff done, don't
> you have your own web pages? [...]
A variation on the "you can discriminate in your own space" suggestion.
Not a
> Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
> > [...] As there's is absolutely no seggregation in the debian-women
> > environment, men can benefit, and I'm sure *do* benefit, from this
> > wellcoming climate too.
On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 11:52:50PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> Is a bus with a whites-only
The secret is out. A new cabal is trying to cleanse Debian of women through
pure irritation and MJ is in on the action. Gentlemen, steel yourselves for a
future consisting entirely of endless pedantic hair-splitting over policy,
very little actual technical work and homoerotic all-male skinny di
Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
> When I first became a developer, I found debian-devel frightening,
> hostile and very intimidating, I must admit this was not so because of
> gender issues. [...]
In fact, I suspect the correlation is not very strong.
> [...] more of a personal issue "ok,
On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 05:55:48PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.06.0242 +0100]:
> > But debian-women contributors include both men and women.
>
> Why is it called debian-women?
One of the benefits of starting a project is that you ge
martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> also sprach Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.06.0242 +0100]:
> > But debian-women contributors include both men and women.
>
> Why is it called debian-women? Aren't there also men, some shy, some
> merely put off by the roughness of th
Em Qua, 2005-03-09 às 17:07, Amaya escreveu:
> When I first became a developer, I found debian-devel frightening,
> hostile and very intimidating, I must admit this was not so because of
> gender issues.
I would like to remember everybody the mencal flamewar (one of the most
stupid flamewars I hav
Hi Martin!
martin f krafft wrote:
> Why is it called debian-women?
Because the effort, the project, is aimed at increasing the involvement
of women in Debian. So debian-women as a name made perfect sense :)
> Aren't there also men, some shy, some merely put off by the roughness
> of this pro
also sprach Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.06.0242 +0100]:
> But debian-women contributors include both men and women.
Why is it called debian-women? Aren't there also men, some shy, some
merely put off by the roughness of this project, or many other
reasons, who would welcome a
Hi, Ben Burton wrote:
>
>> I am concerned that a debian-nazi list ...
>
> This means the argument ends now, right?
Given some of the questionable content on the site Jonathan Walther
maintains:
No.
(Godwin's Law isn't invoked if the content it refers to is on-topi
Marco d'Itri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sure, and the obituaries are a discrimination on the basis of death.
Not a type of descrimination that I object to, as I could easily
die if I wanted to. ($DEITY knows, I spend enough time keeping alive.)
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wi
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>No, I think you see it but you disagree whether the directory
>of women or the current list charter is discriminating on the
>basis of sex, and the severity or remedies of past incidents.
Sure, and the obituaries are a discrimination on the basis of death.
--
ciao,
Marc
On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 02:30:07AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> No, I think you see it but you disagree whether the directory
> of women or the current list charter is discriminating on the
> basis of sex, and the severity or remedies of past incidents.
There's pages in the mail archives where only peop
Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
> They're trying to find out why women aren't as actively involved in
> Debian as are men, so that they can remedy any problems, should those
> arise.
I support them doing that.
> In doing so, it isn't unreasonable to see what women currently
> inv
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You haven't said anything sexist about it, except that it has a clear
> > purpose.
>
> I have, IMO. I consider discrimination on the basis of sex to be sexism.
Except that it doesn't discriminate on the basis
Op ma, 07-03-2005 te 02:09 +, schreef MJ Ray:
> Arguing in favour of so-called "positive discrimination" is just
> another case of ignoring present crimes by past-persecuted people.
I cannot agree more with that statement; "positive discrimination" is
just discrimination like anything else, an
Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 07, 2005 at 02:09:26AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> > Arguing in favour of so-called "positive discrimination" is just
> > another case of ignoring present crimes by past-persecuted people.
> > We have to learn from the past and overcome mistakes, n
On Mon, Mar 07, 2005 at 02:09:26AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> Ben Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I have, IMO. I consider discrimination on the basis of sex to be sexism.
> > i.e., you favour the law of the jungle. Which, may I say, has a fine
> > history of maintaining artificial imbalances c
Ben Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I have, IMO. I consider discrimination on the basis of sex to be sexism.
> i.e., you favour the law of the jungle. Which, may I say, has a fine
> history of maintaining artificial imbalances caused by past injustices.
No, I favour stopping discrimination
> > You haven't said anything sexist about it, except that it has a clear
> > purpose.
>
> I have, IMO. I consider discrimination on the basis of sex to be sexism.
i.e., you favour the law of the jungle. Which, may I say, has a fine
history of maintaining artificial imbalances caused by past in
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You haven't said anything sexist about it, except that it has a clear
> purpose.
I have, IMO. I consider discrimination on the basis of sex to be sexism.
I've also described an incident of unchallenged racism on the
debian-women list. While I believ
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > No. Some restrictions on topic are reasonable, some are not.
> [...]
> > Maybe you should ask for debian-misogynists or something.
>
> I am not a misogynist. I believe sexism cannot cure sexism and I
> consid
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I heard a rumour that krooger did not consult because he is
> banned from their IRC and mailing list.
All he had to do was mail them directly.
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Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No. Some restrictions on topic are reasonable, some are not.
[...]
> Maybe you should ask for debian-misogynists or something.
I am not a misogynist. I believe sexism cannot cure sexism and I
consider the current setup of debian-women sexist beyond
Steve McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray wrote:
> >Erinn Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Because you refuse to subscribe to our list or read DWN for ideological
> >> reasons.
> >I think you'll find many DDs aren't subscribed to your list or reading DWN.
> *yawn* And they're also not
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Once again, your complaint is about a topic restriction, not a
> > restriction on who is allowed to address that topic.
>
> Cool, so declaring all discussions and collaboration involving
> women "off-topic" fo
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 12:55:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > A page about people that only admits contributions from women.
> > What's the URL, please?
>
> http://women.alioth.debian.org/profiles/
I have a pa
MJ Ray wrote:
>Erinn Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> * MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:04 14:07 +]:=20
>> > If debian-women are so good at communicating, why don't I see it?=20
>> Because you refuse to subscribe to our list or read DWN for ideological
>> reasons.
>
>I think you'll find
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Once again, your complaint is about a topic restriction, not a
> restriction on who is allowed to address that topic.
Cool, so declaring all discussions and collaboration involving
women "off-topic" for debian-www would be fine with you?
--
To UN
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you want to prove there is something nefarious going on, you must
> *give the evidence*. The burden of proof is on you.
I know. I'll prove it to people who will actually fix it. It will
not help to publish more info here and will harm helpful p
Ean Schuessler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is it possible to just chill out on the chicks? [...]
It's just an example of some general problems (and not one I raised).
> Would you have a problem with blind Debianers creating such a list? Nazis or
> terrorists sure, but ladies!?! [...]
For at le
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > All mail on the debian-women list is public. Not all of their
> > > work is archived in public and they explicitly prohibit IRC logs,
> > > probably both for good root r
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > A page about people that only admits contributions from women.
> > What's the URL, please?
>
> http://women.alioth.debian.org/profiles/
I believe anyone can *contribut
Is it possible to just chill out on the chicks? Can't the girls brave enough
to wade into our computerized backwater have a little something of their own
without all this trouble?
The very few women in Debian put up a page that lists those women and men
aren't listed on it because it is a list
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > All mail on the debian-women list is public. Not all of their
> > work is archived in public and they explicitly prohibit IRC logs,
> > probably both for good root reasons IMO.
> What is "they"?
debian-women co
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > A page about people that only admits contributions from women.
> What's the URL, please?
http://women.alioth.debian.org/profiles/
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MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What is a "women-only" web page?
>
> A page about people that only admits contributions from women.
What's the URL, please?
> > Where is the list charter for debian-women "women-only"?
>
> Being about or by
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> All mail on the debian-women list is public. Not all of their
> work is archived in public and they explicitly prohibit IRC logs,
> probably both for good root reasons IMO.
What is "they"? Not all my work on gnucash is archived in public.
Developers are free
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Sadly not directly. The public stuff is too vague and
> > limited to the level of "Who cares?" about someone linking
> > krooger's message to him being a white christian male.
> All the debian-women mail is publ
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is a "women-only" web page?
A page about people that only admits contributions from women.
> Where is the list charter for debian-women "women-only"?
Being about or by women are the only topicality criteria for debian-women,
last I saw.
--
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I'm not going to continue the off-topic direction that you're
> trying to take this in, but I highlight the *tense* of what
> I wrote compared to your claim, question whether DWWN shows
> anything to the larger Debian community and wonder how you
> are avoiding
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Sadly not directly. The public stuff is too vague and
> limited to the level of "Who cares?" about someone linking
> krooger's message to him being a white christian male.
All the debian-women mail is public.
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> I am concerned that a debian-nazi list ...
This means the argument ends now, right?
b.
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Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You can list all the mailing lists and fora you read, but the point is that
> unless you watch the entire world's open communications, you will miss
> announcements. It's a fact of life. The choices for senders are,
> basically, to either have a single
Erinn Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:04 14:07 +]:=20
> > If debian-women are so good at communicating, why don't I see it?=20
> Because you refuse to subscribe to our list or read DWN for ideological
> reasons.
I think you'll find many DDs aren't subsc
Helen Faulkner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There are four points. Of those, three are being done already, namely
^^
> the first [1],[2] third [3][4][5] and fourth [6]. There are many other
> such references on the Debian Women webpages and ma
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I've been labelled because I fit a similar description to others,
> > so why not label debian nazi if there is a nazi DD? I think that
> > shows the absurdity of some debian-women contributors.
> Could you please pro
On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 02:07:36PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I didn't find "the new mentoring programme" either. I remember being
> > > told some time ago that a mentor course would be announced,
> > > but now you mention it, I don't recall ever seeing i
* MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:04 14:07 +]:
> If debian-women are so good at communicating, why don't I see it?
Because you refuse to subscribe to our list or read DWN for ideological
reasons.
--
off the chain like a rebellious guanine nucleotide
signature.asc
Description: Digita
Sorry, this is definitely OT for -vote. But I wanted to clarify the
follwing comment, which has been made repeatedly on this thread, incase
anyone is actually wondering about it.
MJ Ray wrote:
I think it's a problem that most of the points under how to
avoid being sexist haven't actually been done
MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've been labelled because I fit a similar description to others,
> so why not label debian nazi if there is a nazi DD? I think that
> shows the absurdity of some debian-women contributors.
Could you please provide a pointer to this labelling?
--
Matthew Garr
Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I didn't find "the new mentoring programme" either. I remember being
> > told some time ago that a mentor course would be announced,
> > but now you mention it, I don't recall ever seeing it.
> Oh my god, MJ Ray missed an announcement! Everyone, stop w
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