can we at least get some kind of confirmation that it is going to be
easy to switch the buttons back to normal? gconf is great, but it
really isn't viable for most of ubuntu's users (the point-and-clickers).
also can we get a confirmation that the buttons will continue to look
professional on
@Michael... #609
That illustrates my point clearly on why this whole left-right thing
should be theme-driven. Thanks :D
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That illustrates my point clearly on why this whole left-right thing
should be theme-driven. Thanks :D
This has been implemented for a while now. Are you actually using lucid
at all?
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You
@bernhard, not as a primary OS. I run it on a test box. My main OS is
still 8.04.4LTS and my laptop runs 9.04. (I still think 8.04 is really
the best one to date. It all went downhill from there.)
If it has been implemented, then why post #609? If this is possible,
then both he and I (and many
@pyramid: In current lucid with all updates, open Appearance and
choose a classical theme (e.g. human or dust). Then it should move the
buttons to the right. If not, please comment on bug 533758.
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The final release should clear up the remaining aspects of this design
choice (galling to call it that).
System/appearance still shows all themes with buttons on the right.
Radiance, Ambiance and Dust have buttons left, while Clearlooks, Dust
Sand and New wave have buttons right. No consistency
Slowly, slowly. I am not a IT-Specialist, but even me I know that every
new Version has to been 'patched' before it's going out. It's always a
lot of work and always the same thing. Before it goes out it have to be
tested (... but in Alpha and Beta I'm not always sure they do :). And
now I come to
@Pyramid Technologies #607
i stand 100% behind your post. the problem is not the decision itself, but the
way how it was
- discussed
- communicated
- implemented
And i think this is a very important question for the whole community:
Should ubuntu ignore the community (lp,brainstorm, etc ..) to
Jef, it is certainly not the case that any OEM has directed these
changes. We do direct our original engineering to things that make
Ubuntu better for OEM customers, but we have complete independence as to
which way to lead Ubuntu. A lot of the OEM feedback is very valuable though.
Mark
--
Well, after dailly updates, dust that was sticky to it's right buttons
origins is now left... Error or... will all default themes be now left,
not only new ones?
I think users may know about what's going on to make their decision to
continue or not: A lot of things already have to be setup by
The change of the buttons from the right to the left, with different order is a
fatal change.
Even I as an experienced computer user was annoyed. Having had a different
them, where all
buttons look the same, even on mouse over. So it was unclar which button did
close/maximize-minimize/hide...
Pyramid Technologies, You don't want to use Windows? The only reason
that you want buttons right was your Windows machine @ work. So you can
count on another alternative, simply revert the order of buttons on your
Windows machine to left and the problem is solved.
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[Master] Window Control
Pako Yes, I will hack my work PC that I don't own and I'm sure that
won't break corporate policy. Riiight.
No. The reason I don't want the menu button order and location changed
is because for the past 32 years (longer than many on here have been
alive I'm sure), I've used it the current
And here you breaking the policy of Ubuntu. And please stop saying that
will be hard for new users to adopt the layout or whatever the problem
they might have, that's why there are thousands of help channels,
forums, how to-s and even the help icon on panel. There is a wise
saying: Who want, will
And here you breaking the policy of Ubuntu
Pot - kettle - black.
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Please, Pako, and Pyramid, stop bickering in this bug. That is not
appropriate, nor constructive. You have different opinions, please leave
it at that.
Mark
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Pyramid, you should check out Fedora. I'm going to that on its next full
release, its design is more in line with what I'm looking for right out
the gate, this prevents me from having to change all the PC's I install
it on.
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[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Mark: I just wrote a similar comment when I read yours - thank you.
I think Yann got the point. As I wrote in comment #514, the biggest
problem seems that button positions are a GLOBAL setting so that ALL
themes are affected. This takes away the freedom to choose. If the
button positions are set
Hi Mark,
Here's a thought: If the buttons are being moved and there is work going on
with notifications then what if the tootips that show for the buttons
included standard keybindings such as CTL+W?
It might help people to learn them and then not care where the buttons
are.
Anzan
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[Master]
Mark,
Have OEM customers given you valuable feedback on this specific design change?
Can you sketch the process by which OEMs give you valuable feedback to
design decisions? Are OEM partners in the room while designers are
having private meetings? Do OEMs have a dedicated feedback mechanism
Thank you to everybody who has participated in this discussion.
The final decision on window controls for 10.04 LTS is as follows:
- the window controls will remain on the left, however
- the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise
The decision is based on the view that
Debian here I come.
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Gay
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On Apr 1, 2010 11:27 AM, Mark Shuttleworth lt;m...@canonical.comgt; wrote:
Thank you to everybody who has participated in this discussion.
The final decision on window controls for 10.04 LTS is as follows:
- the window controls will remain on the left, however
very very bad idea this is it for me bye ubuntu
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Just to clarify - on my current lucid system I can choose between human
theme that has buttons on the right and radiance theme with buttons on
the left.
Is the decision to switch all themes to left side buttons or will it
stay as it is now and this final part of the button order only applies
to
- the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise
Putting the most destructive action first. Wasn't the whole point to
make it more sane for LTR reading?
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Mark Shuttleworth:
Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the right
of the window title bar.
Innovation at the cost of other very important features is wrong.
Whatever great innovation it is.
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@Dag (#569)
Well, as Mark pointed out before, we really need more data before any
real solid good choices can be made.
Perhaps we should ask ourselves whether buttons should be ordered
according to whether they are most desctructive, or most used.
Personally, I spend more clicks on closing
The new order matches OS X, which is definitely a good thing (I wonder
why this wasn't stated as the reason).
While I highly dislike the decision, at least this order I can live
with. Otherwise it would had been distro or OS change time (not because
of the buttons alone, of course, but because
Just providing some data:
- I like the new positioning :). I fear i am the only one though.
- For the above reasons ( the 2nd part obviously) i think its a bad idea.
Also, good thing there is an option to change it, but from my
experience, default dominates everything.
Now, for my personal
On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:40:25 -
Dag Odenhall dag.odenh...@gmail.com wrote:
- the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise
Putting the most destructive action first. Wasn't the whole point to
make it more sane for LTR reading?
Close may be ‘destructive’, but I would
Thanks Mark.
Personally, this is the second best solution, but a solution I can live
with.
And when trying to promote Ubuntu to others, at least I can say it is
like using a Mac, in this regard. I am hoping the upcoming changes which
make this necessary are worth it. I was waiting for LTS to
I've watched a screencast (long time ago sorry don't want to google it
up) from the guy who lead the design team behind Office 2007 ribbon
design. He showed a lot of data gathered from the Office 2003 User
participation improvement programme, eye tracking and user test labs.
On particular aspect
Aigars, the left-side change was not meant to affect the other themes,
that was a bug which has since been fixed. You can keep using your
right-side Human theme for Lucid.
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@Jonathan You make a good argument. I eagerly await how it will look in
action, as I thought the maximize,minimize,close setup looked quite
nice. In my mind, close,minimize,maximize looks less nice, but I could
be wrong.
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[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
not a own face finally, but surely a good marketing-gag :)
The light-theme fits to the modern Icons very well and the hardest bugs
has gone... now it's only fine-tuning. The new Indicators on Panel and
only the better Software-Center makes Ubuntu to the best choose for the
next generation-folks.
It's too bad, I was really liking the Maximize, Minimize, Close order. But I
guess I was in the minority on that one.
Having the Close button farther in from the edge gave me that extra
split-second to decide if I was really done using a window.
Ah well, at least it's easy to change. :)
--
I still say that placement of the buttons on the left is wrong.
But if you absolutely insist on doing this, there needs to be a user-
visible option in the preferences GUI to allow someone to reposition the
buttons via a check-box. Expecting people to launch gconf-editor from
the Run Application
** Description changed:
=== Master Bug ===
(As per the design team's request)
All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a
one.
=== Desire ===
Please centre the window title
To refuse change because it's different is BAD.
To change only because it's different is BAD.
Anyway, good decision comes from good rationale (except maybe in
casinos).
Where's the rationale here ? None is explained.
Where's the benefit here ? None is explained.
What's the risk ? The risk is to
** Description changed:
=== Master Bug ===
(As per the design team's request)
All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a
one.
=== Desire ===
Please centre the window title
@scholli, since you're a gambling person, I need to open a casino. Odds
are 100% in the house's favor (me) on not going back to Ubuntu.
You've never seen an rm -rf /* done so fast in your life.
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** Description changed:
=== Master Bug ===
(As per the design team's request)
All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a
one.
=== Desire ===
Please centre the window title
@ Pyramid:
:-D Radical decisions from a heart-broken man. I look forward... send me
a postcard if I was right. Cheers
PD: Don't forget sudo; better is the partition-manager from the new
Live-CD. ;)
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[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Here's an idea: Why not make the upper right hand corner of each window
an 'activity corner' in gnome 3?
On 04/01/2010 02:12 PM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the
right of the window title bar. We have some ideas, and others are
These guys don't know what they are doing. Usability experts... my ass.
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@scholli
YEAH!! YOU WIN!!! *** YOU *** get a cookie...and tons of people leaving.
I've said my opinion. Others have said theirs, now time will indeed
tell. What will you say when the mass exodus AWAY from Ubuntu happens?
Ohh yes, you and Piko will say how wrong everyone else is.. and
you'll
http://havethebuttonsmovedbackyet.com/
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@ Mark Shuttleworth
You sure that's not an April Fools joke wrapped in another one? I mean
it certain looks like an extended prank; switching the buttons around
and letting us think you'd leave it in an LTS just as the world was
starting to take Ubuntu and Linux seriously...
And I've still not
Irritating your users with such a silly and currently /completely
useless/ change is not innovation- it is dumb. Not listening to your
users is not very bright either. Provide something useful together with
such a change, not long after.
By itself this is not a big problem - thank god we have a
On 01/04/10 22:20, Dag Odenhall wrote:
@Jonathan You make a good argument. I eagerly await how it will look in
action, as I thought the maximize,minimize,close setup looked quite
nice. In my mind, close,minimize,maximize looks less nice, but I could
be wrong.
I agree that having the close
On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 17:18:05 -0400, Jeremy Bicha jer...@bicha.net
wrote:
Aigars, the left-side change was not meant to affect the other themes,
that was a bug which has since been fixed. You can keep using your
right-side Human theme for Lucid.
Let me get this clear, the move all the buttons
I like it. I don't see why people flame such a small change.
@ Oli, umm he has plans for the right side. Ever heard of trade
secrets? Sounds logical enough to me.
@ Mark,
Thank you!
Cheers,
Ronnie
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[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@running...
Stop with the F.U.D.
trade secrets in Open Source? If that's the case, boy does Debian have
a bone to pick.
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@ pYramid:
I didn't win, so my argument about unique has gone. I liked the initial
'order' more, because IT was so unique and you had to think a little bit
before you want close the windows really! ... meanwhile you looked for
the red point.
Your last comment was sweet. Dude, what is written on
@ pyramid
F.U.D.? Not. Don't bend my words with your sarcasm. Trade Secrets are
ideas, not patents. Once their idea is out in the light, then anyone
will be able to copy it.
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# 588 ... and it's not Piko, but Pako
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BUT... Apple's close button doesn't close an application
-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 1, 2010 2:07 PM, Jonathan Carter lt;jonat...@ubuntu.comgt; wrote:
@Dag (#569)
Well, as Mark pointed out before, we really need more data before any
real solid good choices can be made.
Perhaps we
On Thu, 2010-04-01 at 23:14 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
I agree that having the close button inset was visually more
interesting. But in the end, the view that carried the day was that
having the close button in the place where it moves around the least
(the corner) was most valuable. The
Well thanks. I've already experienced the reaction of a novice user who
had the window buttons unexpectedly switch around on them. They loved it
about as much as much as they would a hole in the head. Their annoyance
turned into my annoyance.
So thanks again. I'll be looking forward to hearing
@ Mark. Ignoring your users is not the way to go. Even when I'm on
Windows, I rarely use Microsoft Window after the ribbon was introduced
in 2007. In fact, I came to Ubuntu after I got annoyed with Windows
Vista. When the vast majority of users want the window control buttons
on the right, you
@ Mark. Also, what are these ideas you have? I find it hard to believe
you have ideas when you have not even named one.
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@scholli
Wrong Pyramid. Microsoft will include a new feature, because it's
really better and if they are unsure the will insert a option for redo
this change to old habits.
We shall see if Office 2010 has the ribbon UI, the old UI, or the ribbon
U with an option to revert, which Office 2007 does
@Pyramid Technologies I have a feeling that you just started to mistreat
us and I think that your demands are immodest, because there is already
a patch that allows switching the buttons easily. Kubuntu would be ideal
distro for you, the GUI is almost identical with Windows.
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[Master] Window
@piko
No mistreatment meant.
Demands? No. Not at all. You are free to code as you wish, but any
company or entity that ignores the majority of it's customer base, is
doomed to fail. I think the majority of users (based on my own data
gathering from view blog posts, websites, etc) is in favor of
@ Piramid :)
I will link out here. I don't wont have here a only 3-man-threat. We
have a completely different way to see the stuff. I respect it, but it's
not mine. bye
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Pyramid Technologies 545 :
Is anyone here... a customer? As in paying Canonical for anything? It
would be very ironic if later it becomes known that these design changes
were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as OEM partners
over the concerns of non-paying customers.
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@Jefspa
Is anyone a customer in the literal sense of money exchanging hands?
No, not to my knowledge. I guess I could have said user, customer
end-user, or if A creates B and C uses it ..it's all really
the same thing in the end. Rather than argue semantics, let's focus on
the points I
This is not a forum, guys. I humbly suggest opening a thread on Ubuntu
forums and stop spamming here.
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On 31/03/10 19:07, Jefspa Leta wrote:
Is anyone here... a customer? As in paying Canonical for anything? It
would be very ironic if later it becomes known that these design changes
were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as OEM partners
over the concerns of non-paying customers.
Mark,
It's not the case that such a hypothetical situation would be ironic? Or
are you saying that someone in this ticket is a paying support customer?
I'm not particular sure which of my sentences you are negating.
The intent was to get Pyramid to reassess the imprecise thinking about
whether
I also feel a strong temptation to add another why I don't like those
buttons, but let me try differently:
To me the problem seems to be, that ALL themes are affected by a
decision meant for the new themes only. So I propose to fix this by
changing the GLOBAL setting for button positions into a
@Jefspa Leta:
Thanks for the underlying information... It's right that having
background from default theme is not so nice to see when you don't want
mauve colors on your desk and have removed default background, even if
this no more a fundamental deal-breaker for ubuntu choice.
I read some
@Josh Vermaas But surely he will want you to show them the possibilities
Ubuntu can do, in that moment when he find out that the sides are
alterable and he can choose any of them, he would never return to
Windows.
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[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
If this can be considered as a valid data, I for myself _strongly_
disliked the change at first, but gave it a try (that's what the
development version is for). After few days I get pretty used to it, and
now I can't imagine having the buttons on the right (pun, pun) side. The
key benefits for me
Hi, after Mark's comment I wrote a two (quite brutal) python scripts
that:
1) prints the mouse position to a file every 5 seconds (the output can the be
redirected to a file)
2) generates an heat mat (a sort of, actually only red is used) from the
previous file
I used the first script for
** Attachment added: Script for generating the heat-map from collected data
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42498022/heatmap.py
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** Attachment added: Mouse data collected using previous script
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42498092/mousepos.txt
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** Attachment added: My heat map
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42498130/heat.jpg
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@scholli Sorry. I must not be a key person aka Developer God, so my
opinion doesn't count I guess. I tried Lucid at an early stage, waited,
then downloaded the latest one like I said. I only use Linux every day,
install it on people's machines for my friends and business customers,
support and
Steve it's a nice work you did. But is IOGraphica do the same with the
heats, is more exactly (continuous and not every 5 seconds) and show the
ways you did with the mouse. But in the end it's maybe a good script for
a long time data collect. So I think it's great, too. Thanks.
Maybe a notice
Secret Future Ubuntu User Interface Plans Revealed!
http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/44121
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On 30 March 2010 11:57, Pyramid Technologies r...@roadie.net wrote:
Secret Future Ubuntu User Interface Plans Revealed!
http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/44121
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I hope my post doesn't violate Mark's suggestion to only add comments
to this bug if they are adding data that could guide a decision.
I just wanted to say that I work as the IT person in High School in
Warsaw, Poland, which uses Ubuntu on it's computers exclusively. I just
learned about this
Thank you, Ludwik, for recognizing that students are supposed to be
learning new things. This is too often forgotten and in fact there are
university classes in the US devoted to slavish memorization of
Microsoft applications. I would say that teachers and administrators
should be even more
The new design will annoy new users who want to move from Windows to
Ubuntu, which is the best GNU/Linux distro to recommend to partially
tech users, even if it is not ready for mass consumption yet.
gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string
:minimize,maximize,close
You're a smart man, Mark, but this decision is wrong. Moving standard
controls around without an obviously compelling reason to do so is
madness, as is encouraging your design team to ignore overwhelming user
dissatisfaction. A spiffy aubergine paint job won't sell cars whose
clutch, brake and
The post #71 by Matthias Klumpp has many valid points. I really hope you
could at least postpone this design change to Lucid+1, otherwise there
is a great risk that we'll be stuck with a big annoyance in a LTS
release.
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[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark, clearly there MUST be enough data here by now, on the Internet in
general, etc, to make a sound decision and back it up with clear and
concise data. Right now this is taking a play right out of ex-president
Bush's playbook... Stay the course. If we see a Mission Accomplished
sigh unveiled
@ last inscribers:
right click on screen - click on change appearance and background -
choose the theme-tab - choose a theme like Dust ... have fun with
right.
Ambiance and Radiance have a unique good look with left. I am associating
Ubuntu with left - max,min,close now. Would be sad to lose
On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 20:23 +, scholli wrote:
@ last inscribers:
right click on screen - click on change appearance and background -
choose the theme-tab - choose a theme like Dust ... have fun with
right.
Ambiance and Radiance have a unique good look with left. I am associating
@scholli Perhaps you have hit on it right there. Make every theme work
either with the wacked out max,min,close now on the left OR the proper
min,max,close on the right like 95% of the World's computer users are
used to.
I know about the Dust theme, but I don't care fo it and I don't want
to be
Addendum: By default, everything should be on the right and in the
normal order. As for the ambiguous never-clarified-changes Mark has
mentioned for 10.010, those should move with the theme selected as well.
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scholli, you'll answer the question that Mr. above ask, or you let me do
that?
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@dashua There is no option to reverse the button layout in the
appearance settings off the bat. The only time I have seen this option
come up is if you pick either of the two new themes and then manually
edit the gconf settings to change the buttons to be on the right side.
At this point if you go
Work with Windows @ work and work with Ubuntu @ home it's not stringent
necessary to put them on the right. I have to respect that it's confusing for
some peoples, mostly for elder persons, okay. At other side there are many
peoples in the world who can handle it easily. They say maybe, like
What do you think would happen if Microsoft said We're doing away with
the Start Menu and Taskbar we've had since 1995. we're going to
implement the Ribbon interface instead.
I can guarantee that the corporate users would not deal with that change
at all. Companies would balk about the learning
Wrong Pyramid. Microsoft will include a new feature, because it's really
better and if they are unsure the will insert a option for redo this
change to old habits. The same happens here. We have a change, but you
are always free to redo it if you wish it. The mistakes of Microsoft are
that they
Gui inconsistency bug.
1) Notice the sub window tabs close on the right side and the main
window closes on the left side.
Either change all the sub window tabs or change the main window.
2) Icons must be intuitive
What does ^ represent?
__
|__| is clearly maximize
What does v represent?
@ Webster:
+ - X ... ^ v X ... [ ] _ X is obviously the same and
the most used symbols I saw over the last years in Windows-decorations
in gnome-look.org for example.
^ means simply: up - bigger - grow
v means oviously: down - small - minimize
The next is the design-issue... put v
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