BTW, it seems NetBeans sub-projects may have their own mailing lists. There
are 60 project: https://netbeans.org/projects/
So, it would be better if some NetBeans admin would provide a full list of
mailing lists instead.
For example, us...@cnd.netbeans.org, has some activity
https://netbeans.org/
> Can it be moved to be a child of "Apache Transition"?
Sure, you can move it. If you can't, I'll login later and move it myself.
> I suggest using a blog for those weekly news
That's also good. What's important is the content and providing people a
semi-automated way of getting NetBeans news. A
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM Emilian Bold wrote:
I have just created
Great. Can it be moved to be a child of "Apache Transition"? Yes, that will
change the URL, though that doesn't matter very much right now since no one
is linking to it and it's just discussed in this thread right now.
I t
Hi,
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> ...I don't know what will happen to nbweekly@ under Apache...
I suggest using a blog for those weekly news, it's a very nice way to
document the project's history. And you can then just send the URLs
of those blog posts to as many plac
I have just created
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists+migration
with
a table describing all the existing NetBeans mailing lists, as well as a
next action recommendation based on the traffic I saw on the archives.
There are a lot of lists with no traffic that we co
On 06/10/16 13:39, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> users: those using NetBeans IDE or building on top of the NetBeans
> application framework, using tags, e.g., [PLATFORM] or [JAVASCRIPT] etc.
Perhaps a good way to encourage the use of the tags would be to
customize the subscription confirmation email w
On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
wrote:
> ...I really like the Apache approach of
> discussing and reaching consensus [or, beating a topic to death, maybe] in
> this way
Glad that you enjoy it!
Doing this on mailing lists requires discipline, one topic per thread,
Precise Qu
On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Bruno Souza wrote:
> There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging. We are a separated
> community, and the more we insist in do what we always did (we start with
> domains and mailing lists, but pretty soon we will be wanting to keep our
> processes and
On Oct 7, 2016 8:39 AM, "Emilian Bold" wrote:
>
> > There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging.
>
> This is a really good point Bruno.
>
> My point is that it's much simpler for contributors to join Apache. We
just
> use another mailing list, use another repository URL for commits, et
> There is another thing also: the sentiment of belonging.
This is a really good point Bruno.
My point is that it's much simpler for contributors to join Apache. We just
use another mailing list, use another repository URL for commits, etc.
But, we have 1.5 million users. And the website, the fo
Two things:
+1 to migration of the lists happening non-automatically and devs first.
+1 to starting with default Apache lists
I agree with Bertrand: the Apache brand is important for the Foundation,
and we should have the mindset to move towards everything .apache.org.
There is another thing als
We had some good experience with using asciidoc.
That can be used as base for a web page but also get processed into a PDF or
help pages.
We only did this for much smaller projects so far though.
LieGrue,
strub
> Am 07.10.2016 um 09:48 schrieb Geertjan Wielenga
> :
>
> Great, thanks!
>
> Gj
>
> Provided netbeans.org gets donated to the ASF
ASF will get the domain, it's part of the proposal:
Oracle owns trademark registrations for the NetBeans mark in the U.S. and
> EU, and would donate those, including the name "NetBeans" and the "
> netbeans.org" domain, to the Apache Foundation, alo
I don't remember having to re-register on all the @netbeans.org mailing
lists when Oracle bought Sun Microsystems. And they had to wait for
regulatory approval from the EU and US for this merger to go through afaik.
--emi
On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
> On 10/07/2016 09:
On 10/07/2016 11:20 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
>>> netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
>>>
>>
>> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
>>
>
> But I wonder, will all the Gmail and email client filters
>
> >
> > Then, once out of incubation, we will migrate again from @
> > netbeans.incubator.apache.org to @netbeans.apache.org?
> >
>
> Yes but that's seamless, redirects are automatic.
>
But I wonder, will all the Gmail and email client filters still work
automatically?
Even with automatic redir
Le 07/10/16 à 10:07, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
>> ...if we
>> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
>> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannou...@netbeans.org or just
>> nbwee...@netbeans.org)...
Le 07/10/16 à 10:05, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
>> ...There's probably also privacy laws to consider here. We'd be letting a
>> commercial entity hand over metadata to another organization. IANAL but
>> that could have implications
> Go
Yup. I think there needs to be a parallel solution like this.
Gj
On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold
> wrote:
> > ...if we
> > only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> > dropped (for example
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> ...if we
> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannou...@netbeans.org or just
> nbwee...@netbeans.org)
I suppose you could continue sending announcements and
On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
> ...There's probably also privacy laws to consider here. We'd be letting a
> commercial entity hand over metadata to another organization. IANAL but
> that could have implications
Good point, bulk migration of list subscribers is not a goo
On 10/07/2016 09:51 AM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> Personally, I'm not sure about bulk subscriptions. I'd prefer it, right
> now, i.e., until further insights changes my perspective, everyone
> explicitly would chose for joining an Apache NetBeans mailing list. Yes,
> that will have an impact etc b
Personally, I'm not sure about bulk subscriptions. I'd prefer it, right
now, i.e., until further insights changes my perspective, everyone
explicitly would chose for joining an Apache NetBeans mailing list. Yes,
that will have an impact etc but the bulk option has disadvantages too.
I agree also w
Great, thanks!
Gj
On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 9:41 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Daniel Gruno
> wrote:
> > ...So, to sum up:
> > - CMS: NO
> > - Moin Wiki: NO
> > - Confluence: POSSIBLE ...
>
> I have requested a Confluence wiki at
> https://issues.apache.org/jir
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
> ...So, to sum up:
> - CMS: NO
> - Moin Wiki: NO
> - Confluence: POSSIBLE ...
I have requested a Confluence wiki at
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12724
-Bertrand
Hi,
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> ...I assume we will also automatically migrate users? Because if we
> only ask a lot of people will not notice this and basically be silently
> dropped (for example, people might lurk on nbannou...@netbeans.org or just
> nbwee...@netbeans.
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> I think switching mailing lists is going to take a toll on the community.
> So, we are switching / migrating the @netbeans.org mailing lists to @
> netbeans.incubator.apache.org.
>
> First, I assume we will also automatically migrate users? B
valid point. Most times we use the [DISCUSS] tag in the subject to denote such
threads.
LieGrue,
strub
> Am 06.10.2016 um 14:40 schrieb Emmanuel Lécharny :
>
> Le 06/10/16 à 14:32, Daniel Gruno a écrit :
>> On 10/06/2016 02:30 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>>> OK, great.
>>>
>>> Though before u
In general:
Steve is mostly for anonymous votes. Let’s just stick with VOTE threads [1]
which is the standard mechanism at the ASF.
More specifically: what would you like to vote for?
Did I understand you correct that you like to give the subscribers to the
netbeans.org lists a vote whether the
Le 06/10/16 à 14:47, Daniel Gruno a écrit :
> On 10/06/2016 02:40 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny wrote:
>> Le 06/10/16 à 14:32, Daniel Gruno a écrit :
>>> On 10/06/2016 02:30 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
OK, great.
Though before using something like that, just discussing in the way we're
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> I think switching mailing lists is going to take a toll on the community.
Great questions you're asking -- I hope someone from Apache can respond to
each of your points, I'm interested in those responses too, all points seem
valid to ask at
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
wrote:
> ...I will do 1 and 2 after about 24 hours from now, to give everyone a chance
> to disagree/agree with the above and to discuss further as needed
Don't you think it would be better to have these explanations at a
stable URL first?
I
I think switching mailing lists is going to take a toll on the community.
So, we are switching / migrating the @netbeans.org mailing lists to @
netbeans.incubator.apache.org.
First, I assume we will also automatically migrate users? Because if we
only ask a lot of people will not notice this and b
Great. What we should try to do is:
1. Ask everyone on nbus...@netbeans.org, d...@platform.netbeans.org,
nbj...@netbeans.org, and other user-oriented lists, to sign up to users@
netbeans.incubator.a.o.
1a. Ask the above to use tags and very clear subject lines in their mails
to the unified mailin
On 10/06/2016 02:40 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny wrote:
> Le 06/10/16 à 14:32, Daniel Gruno a écrit :
>> On 10/06/2016 02:30 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>>> OK, great.
>>>
>>> Though before using something like that, just discussing in the way we're
>>> doing, i.e,, feeling things out as we're currently
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
wrote:
>...
> dev: those developing NetBeans itself, i.e., Apache NetBeans committers
> users: those using NetBeans IDE or building on top of the NetBeans
> application framework, using tags, e.g., [PLATFORM] or [JAVASCRIPT] etc.
> commits: commits
Le 06/10/16 à 14:32, Daniel Gruno a écrit :
> On 10/06/2016 02:30 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>> OK, great.
>>
>> Though before using something like that, just discussing in the way we're
>> doing, i.e,, feeling things out as we're currently doing, is a pretty good
>> thing.
> Either way is fine,
After this discussion -- and agreeing with Raphael Bircher and Emmanuel
Lécharny's insights in retrospect -- I think we should go with the mailing
lists we have by default, {dev,users,commits,private}@netbeans.incubator.a.o
-- and ask for additional ones as needed.
I haven't seen a massive amount
On 10/06/2016 02:30 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> OK, great.
>
> Though before using something like that, just discussing in the way we're
> doing, i.e,, feeling things out as we're currently doing, is a pretty good
> thing.
Either way is fine, as long as it's open to all and the result is
broug
OK, great.
Though before using something like that, just discussing in the way we're
doing, i.e,, feeling things out as we're currently doing, is a pretty good
thing.
Gj
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
> On 10/06/2016 02:26 PM, Anael Mobilia wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > How th
On 10/06/2016 02:26 PM, Anael Mobilia wrote:
> Hello,
>
> How these questions should be solved ?
>
> We need every people migrating from *netbeans.org mailing-list to say
> yes or no on the mailing-list (high volume of mail)
>
> Is there any "votation" tool usually used on the ASF ?
We have
In Apache, I think things are solved by discussing them via e-mails until a
general agreement is reached. I think that works quite well. The
differences between different ideas are quite small, I think, at least so
far.
Gj
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Anael Mobilia wrote:
> Hello,
>
> How th
Hello,
How these questions should be solved ?
We need every people migrating from *netbeans.org mailing-list to say
yes or no on the mailing-list (high volume of mail)
Is there any "votation" tool usually used on the ASF ?
... indeed, how to have "the" voice of the community for all theses
I kind of like the idea of a static web site as well, but whatever you guys
decide will be fine with me.
David
On Oct 6, 2016 7:01 AM, "Emmanuel Lécharny" wrote:
> Le 06/10/16 à 12:11, Daniel Gruno a écrit :
> > On 10/06/2016 11:23 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny wrote:
> >> Le 06/10/16 à 10:31, Bertrand
Le 06/10/16 à 12:11, Daniel Gruno a écrit :
> On 10/06/2016 11:23 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny wrote:
>> Le 06/10/16 à 10:31, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
>>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
>>> wrote:
...We need to set up the Wiki with as the first item to address in detail
>>>
Yes, even with the "static" there will undoubtedly be dynamically generated
content we need, so as long as we can do that. Daily javadocs updates by
the builds is necessary IMO. Too, for releases, we will want to automate as
much as possible. So long as we make sure this is known and doable with
wh
Whatever works for other Apache projects should work for NetBeans too. I
think your (and other Infra folks or other Apache folks) recommendation,
i.e., what will work best, might be the best thing to do. Personally, I
like the sound of a static website with pubsub via git would be fine.
Would this
Hi,
> So, to sum up:
> - CMS: NO
> - Moin Wiki: NO
> - Confluence: POSSIBLE
> - Static web site: POSSIBLE
> - Dynamic site via buildbot/jenkins: POSSIBLE
My preference in terms of the wiki is Confluence anyway. More visually
appealing than Moin Wiki, and it leaves open the possibility of
integrat
On 10/06/2016 11:23 AM, Emmanuel Lécharny wrote:
> Le 06/10/16 à 10:31, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
>> wrote:
>>> ...We need to set up the Wiki with as the first item to address in detail
>>> is a
>>> community-driven transition plan, with w
Thanks, this is really helpful advice.
Though, the additional mailing lists suggested in my proposal are really
minimal, i.e., I think these are the absolute minimum that is absolutely
needed -- though probably not all right now this minute, indeed.
Gj
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Emmanuel L
Le 06/10/16 à 10:31, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
> wrote:
>> ...We need to set up the Wiki with as the first item to address in detail is
>> a
>> community-driven transition plan, with what we want to move, when, in what
>> order, etc
> A
Le 06/10/16 à 10:28, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
> wrote:
>> ...Before getting people to come over from the existing mailing lists to the
>> Apache NetBeans mailing lists, we need to finalize what those mailing lists
>> are. Comments to my ear
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
wrote:
> ...We need to set up the Wiki with as the first item to address in detail is a
> community-driven transition plan, with what we want to move, when, in what
> order, etc
Agreed, we can just request that but we need to select between
M
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
wrote:
> ...Before getting people to come over from the existing mailing lists to the
> Apache NetBeans mailing lists, we need to finalize what those mailing lists
> are. Comments to my earlier proposal are welcome...
Agreed. From my mentor point
Indeed, have done that.
The ICLAs are coming in, that's going well.
Before getting people to come over from the existing mailing lists to the
Apache NetBeans mailing lists, we need to finalize what those mailing lists
are. Comments to my earlier proposal are welcome.
We need to set up the Wiki w
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
wrote:
> I think the NetBeans Apache mailing lists are tge 1st thing we need to
> finalize (my concrete proposal is earlier in this thread)
We currently have {dev,users,commits,private}@netbeans.incubator.a.o,
if you think more are needed righ
I think the NetBeans Apache mailing lists are tge 1st thing we need to
finalize (my concrete proposal is earlier in this thread). Concurrently, we
need to get at least those on the initial committers list to sebd in their
ICLAs. Also getting the Wiki up is important so we can publicly documebt
the
> Yes - you'll need a clear description of the various lists on the Apache
NetBeans website.
More like we need to cleverly hide the dev@ list :-)
Seems to me the lists are quite nicely described on
https://netbeans.org/community/lists/ and
https://netbeans.org/community/lists/top.html yet some pe
On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> ...For every software developer that uses NetBeans and has to ask something,
> some will assume they need dev@ since that has developers in the title...
Yes - you'll need a clear description of the various lists on the
Apache NetBeans website
BTW, considering NetBeans is an IDE, there has been a bit of confusion
about what nbdev@ is all about. I assume this will propagate to
d...@netbeans.apache.org too.
For every software developer that uses NetBeans and has to ask something,
some will assume they need dev@ since that has developers i
Here's a proposal (and it's not about building "a load of small groups",
which I don't believe Sun did either actually, but about not having people
quit the Apache NetBeans mailing lists because of getting too many
irrelevant e-mails for their purposes):
1. How the standard Apache mailing lists ma
On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote:
During the proposal time i created a NetBeans account and looked into the
> community. The similarities with OpenOffice are on some level realy height.
> Mainly the infrastructure is very similar. In the case of the ML it's
> pretty much the
Hi Bertrand
Am 10/5/2016 um 4:24 PM schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz:
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Raphael Bircher
wrote:
...NetBeans has the same problem in this case as Apache OpenOffice had before
Apache was joined
I would prefer that we avoid comparing NetBeans and OpenOffice - th
Hi,
> That's technically possible of course, but from a community standpoint
> we usually prefer a small number of lists, maybe using [TAGS] in
> subject lines - split by community, not by topic.
I like the idea of having a single list with tags. That way it is easy
to spot whether a new conversa
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Raphael Bircher
wrote:
> ...NetBeans has the same problem in this case as Apache OpenOffice had before
> Apache was joined
I would prefer that we avoid comparing NetBeans and OpenOffice - those
are very different projects, each with their own history.
(an
Hi Hermien
Am 10/5/2016 um 4:04 PM schrieb Hermien Pellissier:
Hi,
My understand is that there are, at least initially, these:
- one for the PPMC
- one for developers working on Apache NetBeans
- one for users making use of Apache NetBeans
Putting my Platform Application developer hat on fo
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:04 PM, Hermien Pellissier wrote:
> ...Will
> we have an equivalent of the d...@platform.netbeans.org list here too
> eventually? That list is targeted at developers that develop third
> party applications on top of the Apache NetBeans Platform,...
That's technically
Hi,
> My understand is that there are, at least initially, these:
>
> - one for the PPMC
> - one for developers working on Apache NetBeans
> - one for users making use of Apache NetBeans
Putting my Platform Application developer hat on for a second. :) Will
we have an equivalent of the d...@platf
Hi Geertjan,
On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
wrote:
> - one for the PPMC
The private@ list is reserved to PPMC members indeed, but it's meant
to be used *very* sparingly.
Basically only to discuss new candidates before electing them there
(to avoid embarassing candidates who
Hi all,
I think we need clarity on what we want to do with each of the mailing
lists and who should be on them,
My understand is that there are, at least initially, these:
- one for the PPMC
- one for developers working on Apache NetBeans
- one for users making use of Apache NetBeans
If not cor
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