of breaking something that a user currently depends on is
either naive or lying.
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On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:12:35AM +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
* Matthew Garrett [11/10/2010 19:57] :
debian-installer? Yes.
Shipping 2 different installers is a recipe for disaster from a user and
QA perspective.Choose one between Ubiquity, Debian-installer and Anaconda.
Ubiquity
On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 02:46:28PM +0200, Harald Hoyer wrote:
But I cannot list all the RHEL6 bugs.
Why not? Strip partner names if necessary, but please make it possible
for people to decide whether a given update is a benefit to them.
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display turned on?
No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor
connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have
the internal system's display turned on. Hardware lies.
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are separate bugs we can fix once we make the actual
behaviour correct.
Bugs where we turn off people's displays when they're trying to use them
are things that we should address at the start of the development
process, not the end.
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On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:16:44AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:05 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor
connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have
the internal system's
people's systems at random, if those systems have
lying lid switches?
Because we only do that on lid state transitions.
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be there
to shield userspace from reality.
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On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 02:27:27PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:
On 10/05/2010 02:25 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
The range of ways that lid switches can be broken is large. One machine
I've seen tries to read from a GPIO that's off by 16, because Intel's
GPIO/GPE numbering
case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor
connected.
The BIOS generally manages to get that one correct, can we not query
and keep the current state on boot?
It really doesn't.
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On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 07:53:25PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
The BIOS generally manages to get that one correct, can we not query
and keep the current state on boot?
It really doesn't.
Seems to work just fine
.
Software distribution mechanisms are an entirely separate issue from a
distribution's (effectively required) update policy.
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a failure?
Some packages were pushed to stable before they should have been,
therefore we need to make it easier to push packages to stable?
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On Sat, Oct 02, 2010 at 12:45:14AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
Some packages were pushed to stable before they should have been,
therefore we need to make it easier to push packages to stable?
Yes! Sure, this sounds paradoxical, but my premise is that NO MATTER how
'. =)
The OED disagrees.
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On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 03:04:31PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2010-09-15 at 14:57 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:48:26PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote:
'regardless'. 'irregardless' would mean 'not regardless'. =)
The OED disagrees.
Not really
apparently not possible.
I absolutely agree with your criticism. We should do better, and I hope
that in future we will.
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with links.
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`gnome-display-properties`, which is a gnome tool with
gnome package dependencies.
system-config-display depends on gtk, so it's all a matter of degree.
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On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 05:28:31PM -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
system-config-display depends on gtk, so it's all a matter of degree.
No, I would never mention Gtk as a dep.
So, like I said, it's a matter
regularly.
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elsewhere but would default to popping
up some sort of desktop notification.
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On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 09:46:26AM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
The long term fix would arguably be to provide a stub /usr/sbin/sendmail
that ties into a more generic event reporting interface, which in turn
could be configured to send mail elsewhere but would
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:53:13AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:43:36PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
There's certainly a set of people who want an MTA for this - in a server
environment it's obviously far more straightforward to get mailed on
failure
it with
something that's actually useful.
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badly, it's
probably worth thinking about writing code to fix the problem well.
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that we (as developers) wouldn't otherwise be able to get.
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Install an MTA to
the list of things they have to do is entirely reasonable.
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of two
evils instead of no evils.
The lesser of 2 evils is no solution. Only NO evil at all will keep the
user's freedom. Users should NEVER use proprietary software, be it as
JavaScript or using a proprietary protocol.
How's your open x86 microcode coming along?
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the moment someone types in a
root password, even if they're on a different terminal. I accept that
this is a barrier, but the only real solution is to have each X session
run as a different user - and that requires Linux to gain revoke()
support.
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that broke things in the first place.
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to maintain this code in Fedora then it's worth
having a discussion about it, but otherwise there simply isn't enough
manpower available to do a proper job of looking after the code. That's
not politics.
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that there's
a supportable version of the code available to use in the Fedora kernel,
or alternatively take over enough of the existing kernel work that
someone else gains enough time to take responsibility.
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On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 05:30:04PM +0100, Matthew Booth wrote:
It seems empathy and everything related to it has lost the ability to
execute programs.
What if you setenforce 0?
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is slated to die before too much longer. acpid is going to
have to die before too much longer, but it would be good to replace it
with something that can listen to arbitrary input events.
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know, unsupported etc...)
Yeah. Run something newer.
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by a bug that
was fixed in a later release, so I'll happily take it if you're not
hugely enthusiastic about looking after it.
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machines where it's currently *impossible* to
get to the grub menu then that sounds like a bug in grub that needs to
be rectified.
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a timeout then that's something that
needs fixing, but we're better off exploring *why* your machine is
behaving differently rather than bandaiding over it with a timeout and
prompt.
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On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 02:14:45PM -0700, Robert Relyea wrote:
On 05/18/2010 07:43 AM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
The logic here is unclear. Technical users are surely the ones most able
to deal with this situation? I'll point out here that Windows gives no
visible prompt to obtain bootup
path is to make
reasonable accommodations for this sort of thing. Let's face it, if
we're waiting on Sony or HP to fix this, we'll be waiting a while.
Or, alternatively, we can actually look into the problem and determine
whether there's an elegant way of handling it.
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less.
[1] And I appreciate that I made a mistake with hal-storage in this
cycle that caused inconvenience for people maintaining other spins, so
I'm not going to claim any kind of perfection in this area
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unhappy.
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, and hence it gets to be the default. This
is, of course, unfair.
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start testing?
No. It's being worked on.
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.
To which releases?
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On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 01:50:58PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 02:31:42PM +0200, Ingvar Hagelund wrote:
varnish is a high performance http accellerator.
I'm just to tag and build the new upstream version 2.1.0 of varnish.
This new version has a change in the vcl
to the contrary '-)
nouveau has powered down the nvidia if it's not in use for some time
now.
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On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 01:23:31PM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
(snip)
That's an excellent bug report, but it should be filed at
http://bugzilla.redhat.com rather than de...@lists.fedoraproject.org.
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of those filed
(and in the time I have, I might have one of them fixed)
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attempt to put this in the kernel. It's an entirely
inappropriate place to do it. If you're interested in making this work,
there's a woeful lack of manpower upstream - I'm sure your contributions
would be gratefully received.
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, and perpetuating these
workarounds in locations that are likely to encoruage others to do the
same just means that it's less likely we'll ever fix the underlying
problem.
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gpu that are otherwise required for it.
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their
workarounds every cycle, and hurts the people who won't even bother
trying to find workarounds or file bugs when things don't just work out
of the box.
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On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 11:18:37PM +0200, drago01 wrote:
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
Never, ever, ever do this. Ever. Configure synaptics using xinput.
Can we just patch this out of the driver and let it print a warning
when someone sets
multitouch support at present.
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still require hal.
I've just split hald-addon-storage out into its own package in rawhide.
If you need the hald-addon-storage functionality (ie, you rely on hal
for media change events) then please add an explicit depends on
hal-storage-addon.
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likely to be
confused by applications suddenly breaking because of a soname bump, and
they're the ones who are going to be wary of running *any* updates
because they tend to break stuff for them.
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On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 04:39:30AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
If the software is not maintained within Fedora, there's no notification
of soname bumps.
There is, soname bumps are supposed to be announced on this public list.
A list that is targetted at developers
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 04:13:17PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
users do do things like download stuff and run ./configure; make; make
install
Why would we even try to support that?
Because we don't package every piece of software in the world?
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need to fix those a different way.
Other distributions manage this without too much trouble, so I don't see
it being a problem to adopt this policy.
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for Centos happens to be upstream in RHEL).
Debian has historically managed this. I really don't buy the argument
that security or other critical fixes are generally difficult to
backport.
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On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 01:52:06PM -0500, Paul Wouters wrote:
That might be harsh for some soname updates.
If a user has built an application against a library, it's not
especially reasonable to then break that application by bumping a soname
in a stable release.
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On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:47:03PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
If a user has built an application against a library, it's not
especially reasonable to then break that application by bumping a soname
in a stable release.
If the application is in Fedora as all
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 01:15:56AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
You don't see a problem with breaking someone's application just because
they've installed an update to a stable release of Fedora? It's
obviously fine to do so when upgrading between releases, but within
that a library behaves as
documented isn't the problem - the risk is that there's consumers of
that library that depend on undefined and (thus) untested behaviour.
Making sure that some people who actually use this package install the
update reduces the risk that that happens.
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tested are clearly something that we need to think about carefully. If
there's a tiny number of users then we still want the package to be
tested, but hitting +3 may be implausible.
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our
removal of hal dependencies from kde/solid
* someone should join hal people to watch changes, that could affect KDE
packages
Contrary to the assertion in the meeting, udisks has not removed polling
support.
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On Tue, Mar 09, 2010 at 07:30:10PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
Contrary to the assertion in the meeting, udisks has not removed polling
support.
Sorry, but that's the impression we got from this mail:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/devkit-devel/2010-January
if this should be
expanded with a sliding scale for update types (enhancements, for example, get
more stringent treatment than bugfix/security).
This seems pretty sane.
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version
of software remain able to do so, while not tending to introduce
functional, UI or interface bugs for users who wish to be able to
maintain a stable platform.
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On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 10:09:25PM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 09:59:29PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
We assume the following axioms:
[..]
2) It is impossible to ensure that functionality will not be reduced
without sufficient testing.
Your axioms
On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 11:18:17PM +0100, Björn Persson wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
Proposal
The ability for maintainers to flag an update directly into the updates
repository will be disabled. Before being added to updates, the package
must receive a net karma of +3
the
testing base then that would be awesome, but the status quo really
doesn't seem sustainable.
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hurdles.
As I've said elsewhere, this is a problem that needs solving. But I
don't believe that it's a problem that's best solved by allowing people
to push directly to stable.
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]
Notting's statement was in response to your earlier:
23-02-2010 20:48:05 Kevin_Kofler: OK by 1 rel-eng member would be fine
with me (I could just bug rdieter ;-)
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out somebody to at least give the update a
smoke test.
For many specialized software, this is asking too much to the
maintainers.
If you can't find anyone who can test the software, why does it need to
be updated?
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that making it easier to test packages would be beneficial in a
wide range of cases.
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On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 08:41:07PM +0100, Till Maas wrote:
On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 07:18:58PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 08:15:43PM +0100, Till Maas wrote:
1) to fix a bug or add a feature the maintainer experienced/uses
If nobody is complaining about
for X days to have a package pushed that fixes
a bug. It introduces a regression which is detected by a user who
uses the stable release and not updates-testing. Should the users
wait X days before the regression is fixed?
At the point where you have a reported bug, you have a tester.
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On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 08:19:22AM +0100, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote on 24.02.2010 22:59:
Further, it loses the settings over suspend/resume. Can we stop blaming
this on distributions now?
Then why do a lot of drive load and unload frequently when running a
linux
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 05:08:58AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Matthew Garrett wrote:
Yes - it's an option that's basically impossible to expose in a UI in a
sensible way.
How so? Spindown timeout, Advanced power management timeout, and a
slider with 256 entries (or 240 or whatever
in a
sensible way.
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the original value is.
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that there was some reason for that...
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GMA500, 810, 815 and 830) would like to give the F13
kernels at http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=2009928 a
go and let me know if they result in graphical glitches or hangs that
you don't otherwise have with F13, that would be a great help.
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On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:41:56AM +0100, Rudolf Kastl wrote:
still got hangs on a lenovo x301. with 2.6.32/31 the hangs are gone.
And with other F13 .33 kernels?
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on Fedora. And, obviously, what it's
appropriate to do to the Fedora package set depends on who we want
Fedora to be for.
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On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 02:19:35PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
snip
Ubuntu is better than Debian
snip
If you honestly believe that, I have pitty on you.
For the market they're aiming at? I don't think there's any
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 02:32:19PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
If a spin wants to use a modified kernel package, what's the procedure
for ensuring that it receives the same level of QA as the normal kernel?
snip
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