Re: Derailed (Was: "Code Sandwiches")

2011-03-13 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
On 3/13/11, gölgeliyele wrote: > > If you are a linux person, you may like Mac ports. I use a large number > of linux apps on my Mac, such as GIMP, GNU emacs, Inkscape, vncviewer, etc. MacVim looks nice. I've also heard great things about Textmate. There's definitely nice software out there, of c

Re: Derailed (Was: "Code Sandwiches")

2011-03-13 Thread gölgeliyele
On 3/12/11 11:10 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 3/13/11, Nick Sabalausky wrote: snip OSX is a nice OS. I gave it a try once or twice. The OS is nice, but man, when I started looking for software on the web I almost got sick. "Top 10 software for Your Mac", "5 Apps that will make your Mac Exper

Re: Derailed (Was: "Code Sandwiches")

2011-03-12 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Andrej Mitrovic" wrote in message news:mailman.2483.1299989460.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... > On 3/13/11, Nick Sabalausky wrote: >> snip > > OSX is a nice OS. I gave it a try once or twice. The OS is nice, but > man, when I started looking for software on the web I almost got sick. > "To

Re: Derailed (Was: "Code Sandwiches")

2011-03-12 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
On 3/13/11, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > snip OSX is a nice OS. I gave it a try once or twice. The OS is nice, but man, when I started looking for software on the web I almost got sick. "Top 10 software for Your Mac", "5 Apps that will make your Mac Experience Awesome!", "This app will make you feel

Re: Derailed (Was: "Code Sandwiches")

2011-03-12 Thread linux user
Nick Sabalausky Wrote: > "Andrej Mitrovic" wrote in message > news:mailman.2479.1299981498.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... > >I wish all apps followed a defined standard and allowed us to set all > > applications to use dark backgrounds at once. > > > > On Linux you can't even set the cursor

Derailed (Was: "Code Sandwiches")

2011-03-12 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Andrej Mitrovic" wrote in message news:mailman.2479.1299981498.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... >I wish all apps followed a defined standard and allowed us to set all > applications to use dark backgrounds at once. > > On Linux you can't even set the cursor blinking to be the same for all > a

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
I wish all apps followed a defined standard and allowed us to set all applications to use dark backgrounds at once. On Linux you can't even set the cursor blinking to be the same for all apps. Either it's a GTK/KDE/XF/Whatever-specific setting, or you have to hunt down some configuration file Some

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"David Nadlinger" wrote in message news:ilgvf0$2dmt$1...@digitalmars.com... > On 3/13/11 12:14 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: >> Doesn't matter, he's still constructed a blatant strawman. Those three >> things I mentioned, plus the fact that he's using maximum contrast, all >> make >> text harder to

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"David Nadlinger" wrote in message news:ilgvk8$2dmt$2...@digitalmars.com... > On 3/12/11 11:49 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: >> "David Nadlinger" wrote in message >> news:ilgs4q$27rk$1...@digitalmars.com... >>> On 3/12/11 11:07 PM, spir wrote: Another obvious remark (not from me, read on the w

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread David Nadlinger
On 3/12/11 11:49 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: "David Nadlinger" wrote in message news:ilgs4q$27rk$1...@digitalmars.com... On 3/12/11 11:07 PM, spir wrote: Another obvious remark (not from me, read on the web) is that what is good for paper is not good for screens; because they are light sources.

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread David Nadlinger
On 3/13/11 12:14 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Doesn't matter, he's still constructed a blatant strawman. Those three things I mentioned, plus the fact that he's using maximum contrast, all make text harder to read *regardless* of positive/negative contrast. And *despite* that, he's still using thos

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"David Nadlinger" wrote in message news:ilgt04$298s$1...@digitalmars.com... > On 3/12/11 11:34 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: >> "spir" wrote in message >> news:mailman.2474.1299967680.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... >>> On 03/12/2011 10:16 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > Even with a brightness

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"David Nadlinger" wrote in message news:ilgs4q$27rk$1...@digitalmars.com... > On 3/12/11 11:07 PM, spir wrote: >> Another obvious remark (not from me, read on the web) is that what is >> good for paper is not good for screens; because they are light sources. >> Reading text on white backgroung is

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread David Nadlinger
On 3/12/11 11:34 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: "spir" wrote in message news:mailman.2474.1299967680.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... On 03/12/2011 10:16 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Even with a brightness setting matching the ambient light (many people I know have turned the backlight up wa

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"spir" wrote in message news:mailman.2474.1299967680.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... > On 03/12/2011 10:16 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: >>> Even with a brightness >>> > setting matching the ambient light (many people I know have turned >>> > the >>> > backlight up way too high), longer block

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread David Nadlinger
On 3/12/11 11:07 PM, spir wrote: Another obvious remark (not from me, read on the web) is that what is good for paper is not good for screens; because they are light sources. Reading text on white backgroung is like staring at an intensely luminous sky, without moving your sight: doesn't this hur

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread spir
On 03/12/2011 10:16 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Even with a brightness > setting matching the ambient light (many people I know have turned the > backlight up way too high), longer blocks of white text on a dark > background have the nasty habit of leaving an after-image in my eyes, as > demon

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"David Nadlinger" wrote in message news:ilgjnj$1oui$1...@digitalmars.com... > On 3/11/11 11:17 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: >> On Friday, March 11, 2011 11:18:59 David Nadlinger wrote: >>> My question from above still remains: Is there any scientific data to >>> back this assumption? >> >> I don't

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-12 Thread David Nadlinger
On 3/11/11 11:17 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Friday, March 11, 2011 11:18:59 David Nadlinger wrote: My question from above still remains: Is there any scientific data to back this assumption? I don't know. I haven't gone looking. However, I know that there's lots of anecdotal evidence for i

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Walter Bright
On 3/11/2011 1:21 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: "lurker" wrote in message news:ile1fe$2i8q$1...@digitalmars.com... Walter Bright Wrote: On 3/9/2011 10:18 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: They're text. With minor formatting. That alone makes html better. Html is lousy for a lot of things, but formatte

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Friday, March 11, 2011 11:18:59 David Nadlinger wrote: > On 3/11/11 5:55 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: > > The problem with a white background on a computer screen is that a > > computer screen projects light whereas paper merely reflects it. So, > > while reading black on white works great with p

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"lurker" wrote in message news:ile4mh$2qoe$1...@digitalmars.com... > Nick Sabalausky Wrote: > >> I've never had a USB drive or an SD card die on me. And I've been using >> the >> cheap no-name ones from MicroCenter. Maybe you're just using *really* bad >> ones or being rough on them? Or spend tim

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread lurker
Nick Sabalausky Wrote: > I've never had a USB drive or an SD card die on me. And I've been using the > cheap no-name ones from MicroCenter. Maybe you're just using *really* bad > ones or being rough on them? Or spend time near strong em fields? You might forget them in the wrong pocket or your

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"lurker" wrote in message news:ile1fe$2i8q$1...@digitalmars.com... > Walter Bright Wrote: > >> On 3/9/2011 10:18 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: >> > They're text. With minor formatting. That alone makes html better. Html >> > is >> > lousy for a lot of things, but formatted text is the one thing it's

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Andrej Mitrovic
Transition effects? Is this the 90s?

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread lurker
Walter Bright Wrote: > On 3/9/2011 10:18 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > > They're text. With minor formatting. That alone makes html better. Html is > > lousy for a lot of things, but formatted text is the one thing it's always > > been perfectly good at. And frankly I think I'd *rather* go with pre

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Walter Bright
On 3/9/2011 10:18 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: They're text. With minor formatting. That alone makes html better. Html is lousy for a lot of things, but formatted text is the one thing it's always been perfectly good at. And frankly I think I'd *rather* go with pretty much any word processing forma

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread David Nadlinger
On 3/11/11 5:55 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: The problem with a white background on a computer screen is that a computer screen projects light whereas paper merely reflects it. So, while reading black on white works great with paper, it's harder on the eyes with a computer screen. My question fr

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread spir
On 03/11/2011 04:35 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/11/11 5:21 AM, David Nadlinger wrote: On 3/11/11 11:30 AM, spir wrote: I do agree. I also wish -- something much easier to do -- they would care for our nerval systems & stop saturating them with non-information (white backgrounds). Is t

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Friday 11 March 2011 07:35:09 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: > On 3/11/11 5:21 AM, David Nadlinger wrote: > > On 3/11/11 11:30 AM, spir wrote: > >> I do agree. I also wish -- something much easier to do -- they would > >> care for our nerval systems & stop saturating them with non-information > >> (

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread David Nadlinger
On 3/11/11 4:35 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/11/11 5:21 AM, David Nadlinger wrote: On 3/11/11 11:30 AM, spir wrote: I do agree. I also wish -- something much easier to do -- they would care for our nerval systems & stop saturating them with non-information (white backgrounds). Is there

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu
On 3/11/11 5:21 AM, David Nadlinger wrote: On 3/11/11 11:30 AM, spir wrote: I do agree. I also wish -- something much easier to do -- they would care for our nerval systems & stop saturating them with non-information (white backgrounds). Is there any scientific data to back this assumption? D

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread David Nadlinger
On 3/11/11 11:30 AM, spir wrote: I do agree. I also wish -- something much easier to do -- they would care for our nerval systems & stop saturating them with non-information (white backgrounds). Is there any scientific data to back this assumption? David

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread spir
On 03/11/2011 09:25 AM, Lars T. Kyllingstad wrote: Based on your above comments, I get the feeling that you don't find typography important at all. But typography is at least as important as any other design decision, and most people do care about design. If you create a web site for some compa

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Lars T. Kyllingstad" wrote in message news:ilcmaf$19dg$1...@digitalmars.com... > > Based on your above comments, I get the feeling that you don't find > typography important at all. But typography is at least as important as > any other design decision, and most people do care about design. >

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Lars T. Kyllingstad
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:43:43 -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > "Andrei Alexandrescu" wrote in message > news:ilbmlp$oq$1...@digitalmars.com... >> On 3/10/11 2:22 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: >>> "Lars T. Kyllingstad" wrote in message >>> news:ilaa5k$2vls$2...@digitalmars.com... Embedding formul

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-11 Thread Lars T. Kyllingstad
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:22:53 -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > "Lars T. Kyllingstad" wrote in message > news:ilaa5k$2vls$2...@digitalmars.com... >> >> PDF ensures a consistent look across different platforms and viewers, >> because the layout is fixed and fonts can be embedded. > > That's a signif

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"retard" wrote in message news:ilbo57$31ie$1...@digitalmars.com... > Thu, 10 Mar 2011 01:18:53 -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > >> "Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message >> news:mailman.2409.1299728378.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... >>> On Wednesday 09 March 2011 13:30:27 Nick Sabalausky wrote:

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread retard
Thu, 10 Mar 2011 01:18:53 -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > "Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message > news:mailman.2409.1299728378.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... >> On Wednesday 09 March 2011 13:30:27 Nick Sabalausky wrote: >>> But why is it that academic authors have a chronic inability to >>> re

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Andrei Alexandrescu" wrote in message news:ilbmlp$oq$1...@digitalmars.com... > On 3/10/11 2:22 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: >> "Lars T. Kyllingstad" wrote in message >> news:ilaa5k$2vls$2...@digitalmars.com... >>> Embedding formulas as images isn't really an option, because you want >>> them to b

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu
On 3/10/11 2:22 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: "Lars T. Kyllingstad" wrote in message news:ilaa5k$2vls$2...@digitalmars.com... Embedding formulas as images isn't really an option, because you want them to be in the same font as (or a font that looks good with) the document's main font. That strik

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Lars T. Kyllingstad" wrote in message news:ilaa5k$2vls$2...@digitalmars.com... > > PDF ensures a consistent look across different platforms and viewers, > because the layout is fixed and fonts can be embedded. That's a significant part of what makes it good for printing and terrible for everyt

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread Ary Manzana
On 3/9/11 5:15 PM, bearophile wrote: Despite D is currently not widely used, it's not hard for me to find references about D into computer science papers I find around. This paper is titles "Code Sandwiches", by Matt Elder, Steve Jackson, and Ben Liblit, it discusses D scope g

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu
On 3/9/11 11:49 PM, spir wrote: pdf is a printing format (a poor one, according to typo professional, please ask); nothing else. This is rather surprising given that Addison Wesley uses pdf throughout as their publication format. Other publishers I talked to do the same, and so do smaller pub

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread Daniel Gibson
Am 10.03.2011 11:46, schrieb Lars T. Kyllingstad: I don't understand your big gripe with PDF readers either. Maybe Adobe just makes a crappy one? I use the one that comes with the GNOME desktop, Evince, and it works perfectly. (It's open source, too!) As we speak I have it open on a 1422-page

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread Lars T. Kyllingstad
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 02:15:01 -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > PDF: *Complete* inability to adapt appropriately to the viewing device, > *completely* useless page breaks and associated top/bottom page margins > in places that have absolutely *no* use for them, no flowing layout, > frequent horizonta

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-10 Thread spir
On 03/10/2011 01:58 AM, bearophile wrote: spir: (Thank godS, Unbuntu's doc viewer recently got an "inverse video" mode. Unthank gods, white on black is far to be the most legible color combination. Anyway, better than the opposite...) Two of the most important PDF viewrs have an option to cha

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread spir
On 03/10/2011 08:15 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: "Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message news:mailman.2411.1299739219.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... On Wednesday 09 March 2011 22:18:53 Nick Sabalausky wrote: "Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message news:mailman.2409.1299728378.4748.digitalmar...@pu

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Wednesday 09 March 2011 23:15:01 Nick Sabalausky wrote: > "Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message > news:mailman.2411.1299739219.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... > > > On Wednesday 09 March 2011 22:18:53 Nick Sabalausky wrote: > >> "Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message > >> news:mailman.2409.129

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message news:mailman.2411.1299739219.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... > On Wednesday 09 March 2011 22:18:53 Nick Sabalausky wrote: >> "Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message >> news:mailman.2409.1299728378.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... >> >> > On Wednesday 09 Mar

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Daniel Gibson" wrote in message news:il90m3$2t70$3...@digitalmars.com... > Am 09.03.2011 23:38, schrieb Nick Sabalausky: >> "Daniel Gibson" wrote in message >> news:il8t79$2t70$2...@digitalmars.com... >>> Am 09.03.2011 22:49, schrieb Daniel Gibson: Am 09.03.2011 22:33, schrieb Nick Sabalau

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Wednesday 09 March 2011 22:18:53 Nick Sabalausky wrote: > "Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message > news:mailman.2409.1299728378.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... > > > On Wednesday 09 March 2011 13:30:27 Nick Sabalausky wrote: > >> But why is it that academic authors have a chronic inability to

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Jonathan M Davis" wrote in message news:mailman.2409.1299728378.4748.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... > On Wednesday 09 March 2011 13:30:27 Nick Sabalausky wrote: >> But why is it that academic authors have a chronic inability to release >> any >> form of text without first cramming it into a god

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Wednesday 09 March 2011 13:30:27 Nick Sabalausky wrote: > But why is it that academic authors have a chronic inability to release any > form of text without first cramming it into a goddamn PDF of all things? > This is one example of why I despise Adobe's predominance: PDF is fucking > useless f

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread bearophile
spir: > (Thank godS, Unbuntu's doc viewer recently got an "inverse video" mode. > Unthank > gods, white on black is far to be the most legible color combination. Anyway, > better than the opposite...) Two of the most important PDF viewrs have an option to change the backgroup color of the pag

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread spir
On 03/09/2011 10:30 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: But why is it that academic authors have a chronic inability to release any form of text without first cramming it into a goddamn PDF of all things? This is one example of why I despise Adobe's predominance: PDF is fucking useless for anything but pr

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread spir
On 03/09/2011 09:24 PM, dsimcha wrote: 2. Encapsulation is only a means, not an end in itself. Sometimes people lose sight of this. The end goal is to write correct, efficient, readable, maintainable programs. If increasing encapsulation hurts these goals instead of helping them (as excessive

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Daniel Gibson
Am 09.03.2011 23:38, schrieb Nick Sabalausky: > "Daniel Gibson" wrote in message > news:il8t79$2t70$2...@digitalmars.com... >> Am 09.03.2011 22:49, schrieb Daniel Gibson: >>> Am 09.03.2011 22:33, schrieb Nick Sabalausky: "Nick Sabalausky" wrote in message news:il8rmg$176i$1...@digitalm

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Daniel Gibson" wrote in message news:il8t79$2t70$2...@digitalmars.com... > Am 09.03.2011 22:49, schrieb Daniel Gibson: >> Am 09.03.2011 22:33, schrieb Nick Sabalausky: >>> "Nick Sabalausky" wrote in message >>> news:il8rmg$176i$1...@digitalmars.com... But why is it that academic autho

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Daniel Gibson
Am 09.03.2011 22:49, schrieb Daniel Gibson: > Am 09.03.2011 22:33, schrieb Nick Sabalausky: >> "Nick Sabalausky" wrote in message >> news:il8rmg$176i$1...@digitalmars.com... >>> >>> But why is it that academic authors have a chronic inability to release >>> any form of text without first crammin

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Daniel Gibson
Am 09.03.2011 22:33, schrieb Nick Sabalausky: > "Nick Sabalausky" wrote in message > news:il8rmg$176i$1...@digitalmars.com... >> >> But why is it that academic authors have a chronic inability to release >> any form of text without first cramming it into a goddamn PDF of all >> things? > > It'

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky
"Nick Sabalausky" wrote in message news:il8rmg$176i$1...@digitalmars.com... > > But why is it that academic authors have a chronic inability to release > any form of text without first cramming it into a goddamn PDF of all > things? It's like how my dad tries to email photos by sticking them i

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Nick Sabalausky
hat little I read, this one doesn't seem quite as bad as some. It's actually readable by programmers, which is a nice change from the usual. And I didn't notice any blatantly stupid comments either. It doesn't seem to make much of a point, but it does still seem to have va

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Dmitry Olshansky
On 09.03.2011 23:15, bearophile wrote: Despite D is currently not widely used, it's not hard for me to find references about D into computer science papers I find around. This paper is titles "Code Sandwiches", by Matt Elder, Steve Jackson, and Ben Liblit, it discusses D s

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread Tomek Sowiński
bearophile napisał: > One of the things the paper says about D scope guards is: "Scope guards do > not provide encapsulation". Yep, they don't. So? -- Tomek

Re: "Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread dsimcha
== Quote from bearophile (bearophileh...@lycos.com)'s article > One of the things the paper says about D scope guards is: "Scope guards do not provide encapsulation". (Rolls eyes.) I feel like this is a "standard" criticism of language features that's code for "I don't like this feature". IIRC t

"Code Sandwiches"

2011-03-09 Thread bearophile
Despite D is currently not widely used, it's not hard for me to find references about D into computer science papers I find around. This paper is titles "Code Sandwiches", by Matt Elder, Steve Jackson, and Ben Liblit, it discusses D scope guards too (page 7 and several successi